Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[user1234]

Here are a couple of slow-mo videos I took at the Apple store on Friday evening:

iPhone 13 Mini- flicker very visible:

And here is the iPhone 13 Pro- no visible flicker at all (surprisingly):

Even with how bad the flicker is on slow-mo on my current iPhone 12 Mini- my eyes adjusted after a week or two and it's been great..... so I am tempted to see if the Pro might actually work for me given what I see here, and what Notebookcheck says about DC dimming at anything above 10% brightness.

Slow motion videos are all fun but unfortunately they aren't very helpful. You can have the worst flicker sync up with the frame rate and look like no flicker for example. I just got done measuring a couple of LED bulbs with my oscilloscope, and one looked perfectly flicker free in a slow motion video, but in reality it has a bit of flicker. On the other hand, if it looks really bad in slow motion it probably is really bad so it's still a very useful tool.

I wish there was an actual good reasonably priced handheld meter for this type of stuff. Lowest priced one I found was just south of US $2K and I'm not sure it's sensitive enough for a phone screen.

 

[jm31828]

Slow motion videos are all fun but unfortunately they aren't very helpful. You can have the worst flicker sync up with the frame rate and look like no flicker for example. I just got done measuring a couple of LED bulbs with my oscilloscope, and one looked perfectly flicker free in a slow motion video, but in reality it has a bit of flicker. On the other hand, if it looks really bad in slow motion it probably is really bad so it's still a very useful tool.

I wish there was an actual good reasonably priced handheld meter for this type of stuff. Lowest priced one I found was just south of US $2K and I'm not sure it's sensitive enough for a phone screen.

Thanks for the discussion. Yeah, totally understood that this isn't a very scientific test- it was just interesting as it's the first OLED iphone I've done this with where there was no flicker detected. I was hopeful in seeing that along with Notebookcheck's notes that anything above 10% brightness shouldn't bother anyone due to DC dimming- but clearly it seems to be more complex than that.


Oddly as well, my 12 Mini is a horrible flicker machine on slow-mo, but after a couple weeks of minor eye discomfort, it has been easy on my eyes- go figure.

 

[RobinYerbank]

Yeah, first world problems but still worthy of discussion, and the disappointment is completely understandable. It's exciting to upgrade each year, and a bummer to feel that you have to sit and watch from the sidelines when a new flashy model is released.

So sorry to hear about your situation- at least you'll land back with a nice, new 12 PM. It's still a fantastic phone, please share your experience when you get it- hopefully it will be just as comfortable for you as the previous one was!

It's so interesting how Notebookcheck and others throw terms like DC Dimming out there- we have been led to believe that the 12 Pro and the 13 Pro have it, and are supposed to be comfortable for our eyes- so why do we still see flicker on slow-mo video, and why are so many people still having discomfort? Not to sound like a broken record, but it's really maddening to try to sort all of that out.

I've come to that conclusion as well. Yearly fun upgrades have stopped being fun and now they're just so stressful. So, I'm going to try the different approach of 'how long can I enjoy this 11?'

Good luck with the 12 PM.

I’m sending this from my new 12 Pro Max! So far, so good. No eye strain, no nausea. Love the Pacific Blue, never had it before and actually prefer it to the Sierra Blue of my ill-fated 13 Pro Max. I’ve even decided to go without a case to enjoy the form and colour! Just a screen protector, and AppleCare+ T&L if I keep the phone.

I’m still scratching my head as to why this phone is fine and the newer models aren’t, but that’s the nature of the PWM issue. I’m just glad to have a big-screen 5G iPhone that will last for years.

Only noticeable difference is the lack of ProMotion, but that feature is meaningless to me if it means destroying my eyes for slightly smoother scrolling. It’s something that I really don’t care about on a phone. As nice as it is, the novelty wears off quickly.

That said, I’m going to hang onto my 11 until next week at least. I want to be sure this phone gives me no issues before I send my LCD friend back to Amazon (especially since the 256GB 11 is fast disappearing!).

Edit: I'm keeping the 11! Although the 12 Pro Max isn't as harsh as the 13 series for me, it's still causing me eye strain and the flicker is quite visible to me at times. It's gotta go.

 

[jm31828]

I’m sending this from my new 12 Pro Max! So far, so good. No eye strain, no nausea. Love the Pacific Blue, never had it before and actually prefer it to the Sierra Blue of my ill-fated 13 Pro Max. I’ve even decided to go without a case to enjoy the form and colour! Just a screen protector, and AppleCare+ T&L if I keep the phone.

I’m still scratching my head as to why this phone is fine and the newer models aren’t, but that’s the nature of the PWM issue. I’m just glad to have a big-screen 5G iPhone that will last for years.

Only noticeable difference is the lack of ProMotion, but that feature is meaningless to me if it means destroying my eyes for slightly smoother scrolling. It’s something that I really don’t care about on a phone. As nice as it is, the novelty wears off quickly.

That said, I’m going to hang onto my 11 until next week at least. I want to be sure this phone gives me no issues before I send my LCD friend back to Amazon (especially since the 256GB 11 is fast disappearing!).

Very strange indeed- the Notebookcheck PWM discussion for the 12 Pro Max seems to show that it's pretty bad, but as you said- go figure, there is no way to explain how one is fine for one person and horrible for another.

So glad to hear that it's working out for you!

 

[JM]

Here are a couple of slow-mo videos I took at the Apple store on Friday evening:

iPhone 13 Mini- flicker very visible:

And here is the iPhone 13 Pro- no visible flicker at all (surprisingly):

Even with how bad the flicker is on slow-mo on my current iPhone 12 Mini- my eyes adjusted after a week or two and it's been great..... so I am tempted to see if the Pro might actually work for me given what I see here, and what Notebookcheck says about DC dimming at anything above 10% brightness.

iPhone 13 mini is the pink one. iPhone 12 is the blue one (it could be 12 mini can’t remember)

What do you think? The 13 seems to be better than the 12.

 

[majkom]

Just dont get one thing, why the hell apple stopped selling iphone 11 256gigs, only modern iphone pwm free… **** it

 

[now i see it]

Because not enough people are complaining about their crappy OLED screens

 

[Proteinaceous]

Yes, that sounds like a reasonable solution, but I still think drawing attention to it will cause more problems then help.

this is only thinking from Apple’s theoretical point of view and why they don’t say anything, and why MR doesn’t make an article about it. the solution might already exist: the 11 or the SE for the minority of people that have PWM sensitivity .

and why would MR post an article blatantly calling out Apple’s failure to offe PWM free modern device? That seems like a hit piece, and not within in MR’s MO.

I wonder if an article written more as a ”PSA” (public service announcement) might be useful. I’m sure MR doesn’t have a solution for Apple, nor does MR need to write a hit piece. The article could just be about the realities of current OLED display tech and how it causes issues for some.

I sometimes wonder how many folks are using these phones and are also experiencing more frequent headaches, nausea, etc., and have not even considered that their phone might be the culprit. How many have sought medical treatment (migraine meds, MRIs, etc) when the cause was actually staring them in the face (literally). I got the iPhone X when it first came out and after a few days I started growing more and more concerned about my health (do I have a brain tumor? vestibular issues? nuerological issues? something else?). I didn’t consider the possible correlation between the two until I had the phone for about a week. After some searching, I was quite relieved to find this thread!

So, perhaps there is value in an article as a PSA/awareness piece.

 

[jm31828]

I was thinking on this the other night- for someone who is very mildly sensitive- in theory, which is "safer" for them- a larger phone display with PWM such as the 13 Pro, or a smaller one with a much smaller surface area that is strobing at them- such as the 13 Mini?

I could see the bigger one being better because maybe you are not holding it as close, but then again it's a larger surface that is strobing- so maybe the mini is a bit easier to tolerate?

Especially if the person who is sensitive is also rather sensitive to the overall brightness.

This was my theory in why I adjusted so well to the 12 Mini, the fact that it is small- but I could be way off base there.

 

[dimitricook]

I’m sending this from my new 12 Pro Max! So far, so good. No eye strain, no nausea. Love the Pacific Blue, never had it before and actually prefer it to the Sierra Blue of my ill-fated 13 Pro Max. I’ve even decided to go without a case to enjoy the form and colour! Just a screen protector, and AppleCare+ T&L if I keep the phone.

I’m still scratching my head as to why this phone is fine and the newer models aren’t, but that’s the nature of the PWM issue. I’m just glad to have a big-screen 5G iPhone that will last for years.

Only noticeable difference is the lack of ProMotion, but that feature is meaningless to me if it means destroying my eyes for slightly smoother scrolling. It’s something that I really don’t care about on a phone. As nice as it is, the novelty wears off quickly.

That said, I’m going to hang onto my 11 until next week at least. I want to be sure this phone gives me no issues before I send my LCD friend back to Amazon (especially since the 256GB 11 is fast disappearing!).

Crazy But i am very happy for you, keep us updated on how it works out for you with the 12 pro max, i might even order one to try, never had the max, but tested the pro and regular 12 with the same nausia as the 11 and 13.

Did you use the 12 or 12pro before?

 

[RobinYerbank]

Crazy But i am very happy for you, keep us updated on how it works out for you with the 12 pro max, i might even order one to try, never had the max, but tested the pro and regular 12 with the same nausia as the 11 and 13.

Did you use the 12 or 12pro before?

As long as you're willing to risk a return, it's probably worth a try!

I did actually did have a 12 Pro for a couple of months before I switched to my original 12 Pro Max. It had the green glow issue at low brightness, but never caused me any trouble. Blimey, I've been through a lot of iPhones... 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've been aware of the PWM issue for years, but this is the first time I've been noticeably affected by it and that's why I'm so active in the discussion right now. I've always known it's a thing and hoped Apple would do something about it, but I was quietly grateful that I wasn't affected. Until now!

Oh well, I continue to count myself as lucky because the 12 Pro Max is still a superb device. I'm gonna hang onto it for dear life until I'm sure it's safe to upgrade (microLED?), provided it remains problem-free for the next few days!

Edit: I'm keeping the 11! Although the 12 Pro Max isn't as harsh as the 13 series for me, it's still causing me eye strain and the flicker is quite visible to me at times. It's gotta go.

 

[1369281]

I use this app on my phone to tell me if a light source is "bad" or not...

‎Illuminance Pulsation Meter

‎The application will help you choose a lamp, monitor or laptop with a screen without pulsations. A high coefficient of pulsation can affect fatigue, well-being and eye strain. The application allows you to measure the ripple coefficient of radiation sources in the visible spectrum: - LED...

apps.apple.com

Not sure how accurate it is, but it seems accurate from my testing of different displays and light bulbs. Man, fluorescent bulbs are terrible.

From the developer:

These measurements will help you understand how large the ripple (flicker) coefficient is. Anything with a value above 10-15% has a high ripple. The higher the coefficient, the stronger the effect on eye fatigue and the general condition of the body. The data obtained will help to choose lamps without flicker.

 

[RobinYerbank]

New video from The Slow Mo Guys that everyone here will no doubt find interesting!

He doesn’t seem to understand the concept of PWM, but it’s fascinating to see what they actually look like slowed down dramatically (far more than iPhone slow mo can do).

Now we know what our enemy really looks like…

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

I’m sending this from my new 12 Pro Max! So far, so good. No eye strain, no nausea. Love the Pacific Blue, never had it before and actually prefer it to the Sierra Blue of my ill-fated 13 Pro Max. I’ve even decided to go without a case to enjoy the form and colour! Just a screen protector, and AppleCare+ T&L if I keep the phone.

I’m still scratching my head as to why this phone is fine and the newer models aren’t, but that’s the nature of the PWM issue. I’m just glad to have a big-screen 5G iPhone that will last for years.

Only noticeable difference is the lack of ProMotion, but that feature is meaningless to me if it means destroying my eyes for slightly smoother scrolling. It’s something that I really don’t care about on a phone. As nice as it is, the novelty wears off quickly.

That said, I’m going to hang onto my 11 until next week at least. I want to be sure this phone gives me no issues before I send my LCD friend back to Amazon (especially since the 256GB 11 is fast disappearing!)

While it’s unfortunate the 13 series seems a potential bust, that’s awesome you are once again good with the 12PM!!

 

[PwmMen]

It would be interesting to see what the iPhone 13 Pro looks like if you disable the 120Hz and only let it run at 60Hz.

 

[user1234]

New video from The Slow Mo Guys that everyone here will no doubt find interesting!

He doesn’t seem to understand the concept of PWM, but it’s fascinating to see what they actually look like slowed down dramatically (far more than iPhone slow mo can do).

Now we know what our enemy really looks like…

It's interesting to see a high profile YouTube channel take a look at this. Unfortunately his understanding of displays and PWM left a bit to desire but we did get a good video to show our friends when they claim there is no flicker because they can't see it.

 

[user1234]

It would be interesting to see what the iPhone 13 Pro looks like if you disable the 120Hz and only let it run at 60Hz.

Should look exactly the same but content will not update as often.

 

[PwmMen]

Unfortunately, the iPhone 13 is a failure this year. I had no problems with the iPhone 13 Pro for 2 weeks and thought everything was fine. But then I got the typical problems like headaches and nausea. Then I went back to the iPhone 12 Pro, which suddenly no longer causes me any problems. Will keep this for now and hope for the iPhone 14 Pro. I don't understand why Apple changes something to PWM every year.

But what amazes me that @RobinYerbank has no problems with the iPhone 12 Pro Max, because it has no DC dimming. The iPhone 12 Pro, on the other hand, has DC dimming. It's strange the whole thing with PWM.

But it's good that you can find more and more like-minded people.

 

[Maven1975]

I very happy for Robin as well. ?

Unfortunately, my eyes can’t get along with the 12pM. Have one in the family and tried it last night for about an hour.

 

[flowave]

AHHHH!!! Screw it. I'm not going to bother with the 12 Pro Max. It doesn't sit right with me paying that much for last year's model. I'd be paying a lot of money just to go backwards.

I strongly suspect that I was suffering from eye strain from it last time, but it was to a lesser degree than the 13 Pro Max, for whatever reason. Now that I think about it, I recall having regular sore eyes with the 11 Pro Max I had before it when I was commuting via train pre-COVID. I'm starting to think I was getting something similar with the 12 Pro Max.

I'm not going to risk further discomfort and hassle, not to mention the money. The 11 is a brilliant phone that I can use comfortably as much as I want. There's a lot of value in that!

LOLL I knew you would come back this this conclusion. Fighting with a device that eats away your health is not worth it. Also, NEVER sell your old phone until you are 100% satisfied with your new phone. Lessons learned.

 

[RobinYerbank]

LOLL I knew you would come back this this conclusion. Fighting with a device that eats away your health is not worth it. Also, NEVER sell your old phone until you are 100% satisfied with your new phone. Lessons learned.

It appears to be just the 13 series that’s incompatible with me.

I’m currently comparing a 12 Pro Max to the 11 and deciding which to keep. It’s definitely way better than the 13 Pro Max and 13 were, but I think it’s still straining my eyes to a degree.

I might be going crazy, but I feel like I can see the flickering slightly as well, especially as lower brightnesses! ?‍?

However, an additional appeal of the 11 beyond its LCD is that it’s literally half the price! I’ll decide for sure in the coming days.

 

[JM]

It appears to be just the 13 series that’s incompatible with me.

I’m currently comparing a 12 Pro Max to the 11 and deciding which to keep. It’s definitely way better than the 13 Pro Max and 13 were, but I think it’s still straining my eyes to a degree.

I might be going crazy, but I feel like I can see the flickering slightly as well, especially as lower brightnesses! ?‍?

However, an additional appeal of the 11 beyond its LCD is that it’s literally half the price! I’ll decide for sure in the coming days.

You’re not crazy. I saw the flickering at the lowest brightness too ? that was the final straw when I laughed and thought “yeahhhhhh, I should send this back”

 

[now i see it]

For some people (myself included) iPhone OLED flickering is easy to see when moving your eyes quickly across the screen.

 

[RobinYerbank]

You’re not crazy. I saw the flickering at the lowest brightness too ? that was the final straw when I laughed and thought “yeahhhhhh, I should send this back”

It’s very subtle, but I swear I can see the lines racing down the display (and across when in landscape).

I think I never noticed it before, but I know what to look for now. My eyesight is very good and very sensitive, so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised. I can perceive lights flickering as well!

I’m back on the 11 after a couple of days with the 12 Pro Max and it definitely feels easier on my eyes. I think the difference is most noticeable when you feel that relief!

It’s like taking off a bra at the end of the day… not that I expect everyone here to relate. ?

 

[now i see it]

Well at least I now know what it’s like to take off a bra at the end of the day