Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[jm31828]

I feel like I'm going a bit nuts here, but I'm considering a 12 Pro Max now. I previously used the 12 Pro Max without issues for about 9 months. To be honest, I wish I'd kept the damn thing, but I got caught up in the 13 Pro Max pre-order hype and traded it in with Music Magpie.

Looking into the data from NotebookCheck, it has roughly 240Hz PWM vs 610Hz (iPhone 13) and 480Hz* (iPhone 13 Pro Max).

*As reported here.

For whatever reason, it seems to be the 13 series with its higher PWM frequencies (and more intense modulation?) that is causing me issues. The 13 gave me a headache and made me feel nauseous, the 13 Pro Max gave me horrendous eye strain within a few days.

I previously used the X, XS Max, 11 Pro Max and 12 Pro Max and they're all in the region of 240Hz. And I might be wrong here, but I think I read that the 12 Pro and Pro Max have DC dimming (or at least less modulation) above 25% or something?

Although I get on well with the 11, it feels frustrating to be stuck on an older model that lacks 5G and the telephoto camera. And I miss the huge display of the Max! I'm not fussed about 120Hz in a phone, especially when the display makes my eyes want to pop out. My 165Hz (flicker-free) PC monitor gives me all the high-refresh joy I need.

Sky Mobile have the 256GB Pacific Blue in stock and I've already been approved for monthly payments. I've not signed the contract yet... what do you guys think? I'll have another 14 days to return it, I guess.

Interesting points you make about the 12 series and the lower PWM frequency, but potentially less amplitude.

I'm a bit of a dummy with this, but maybe someone out there can help me understand.

I have no problems at all with the 12 Mini that I have had for nearly a year- from Notebookcheck, here is the PWM at 100% brightness (I set mine at about 90%- 95% brightness, and use reduce white point to keep it from truly being too bright):

And here is what they show from the 13 Pro, stating it has DC Dimming and is likely easier on the eyes with a higher PWM frequency:

They don't explain, but I assume what is shown here is maximum brightness, or at least brightness above 10%, since they had an alternate screenshot with much worse looking flicker, and the explanation says that there is indeed lower frequency flicker <=10% brightness.

So just looking at these two on paper- which one of these would be a more eye-pleasing flicker? I know everyone's experience might be a bit different, but I am trying to wrap my brain around the science of what we are seeing on these two- in theory it appears that the lower one- the 13 Pro- should be less troublesome.

 

[RobinYerbank]

Interesting points you make about the 12 series and the lower PWM frequency, but potentially less amplitude.

I'm a bit of a dummy with this, but maybe someone out there can help me understand.

I have no problems at all with the 12 Mini that I have had for nearly a year- from Notebookcheck, here is the PWM at 100% brightness (I set mine at about 90%- 95% brightness, and use reduce white point to keep it from truly being too bright):
View attachment 1869607

And here is what they show from the 13 Pro, stating it has DC Dimming and is likely easier on the eyes with a higher PWM frequency:

View attachment 1869620

They don't explain, but I assume what is shown here is maximum brightness, or at least brightness above 10%, since they had an alternate screenshot with much worse looking flicker, and the explanation says that there is indeed lower frequency flicker <=10% brightness.

So just looking at these two on paper- which one of these would be a more eye-pleasing flicker? I know everyone's experience might be a bit different, but I am trying to wrap my brain around the science of what we are seeing on these two- in theory it appears that the lower one- the 13 Pro- should be less troublesome.

It's certainly a very interesting subject matter that I wish would get more scrutiny and proper analysis. I guess a study would need to be done involving a significant number of volunteers (who are willing to suffer in the name of science!), carefully chosen tests and comparisons across all the OLED iPhone models.

As part of my own on-going personal study, I just tried using the 13 again for a few minutes while I wait for the Mac event. It left me feeling nauseous after using it for only about 15 minutes! Even worse than yesterday.

So that confirms that the 13 series is a no-go for me. Neither the 13 nor 13 Pro models are suitable for me. This is the first generation that has been totally unsuitable for me.

My last hope is to try the 12 Pro Max again, but I will be carefully observing for these symptoms. It seemed fine for the 9 months I had it, but I'm having doubts about myself and wonder now if I had eye strain and other issues without really being aware of it. Maybe I was ignoring problems or attributing them to something else! If I get any signs of discomfort, I will stick with my problem-free iPhone 11!

Does this rather complicated PWM issue make anyone else question their sanity?!

 

[jm31828]

It's certainly a very interesting subject matter that I wish would get more scrutiny and proper analysis. I guess a study would need to be done involving a significant number of volunteers (who are willing to suffer in the name of science!), carefully chosen tests and comparisons across all the OLED iPhone models.

As part of my own on-going personal study, I just tried using the 13 again for a few minutes while I wait for the Mac event. It left me feeling nauseous after using it for only about 15 minutes! Even worse than yesterday.

So that confirms that the 13 series is a no-go for me. Neither the 13 nor 13 Pro models are suitable for me. This is the first generation that has been totally unsuitable for me.

My last hope is to try the 12 Pro Max again, but I will be carefully observing for these symptoms. It seemed fine for the 9 months I had it, but I'm having doubts about myself and wonder now if I had eye strain and other issues without really being aware of it. Maybe I was ignoring problems or attributing them to something else! If I get any signs of discomfort, I will stick with my problem-free iPhone 11!

Does this rather complicated PWM issue make anyone else question their sanity?!

Yes indeed, same here!

I tried an XS (my first OLED phone) back at launch- and I had been reading about PWM for the week or so leading up to the phone being delivered. I had some eye strain, discomfort behind my left eye when using it after the first day or so. I exchanged it for an 8Plus at that time, and thought I was losing my mind because those symptoms persisted for a full month or more after switching to the 8 Plus.
After that, I was fine with that phone for the rest of the year that I had it.

I then moved to the regular 11 once that launched and had symptoms again for a few weeks- and I really thought I was losing it because there was no PWM on that phone. I eventually adjusted, and had bouts of some pain, but nothing major or frequent. And a caveat to that is that I do frequently get random discomfort behind my left eye and minor headaches- over the course of many years, so it was difficult to say if this was tied to using any of the phones- I may be one who just needs to to adjust to any new display- PWM or not.

Anyway, then I moved to the 12 Mini at launch, and had a little bit of discomfort- watery, gritty eyes mostly- but after a couple of weeks that subsided and I have had no trouble with it since.

I really want to get the 13 Pro, from Notebookcheck's description, it seems to make sense that if I was fine with the 12 Mini, that the 13 Pro couldn't be any worse- and may be better. But now I am worried, thinking if anything else, I might just psych myself into not being OK with it. haha

But to your comment- honestly I don't think you could have had issues over those 9 months and just not been aware- clearly you are in touch with these symptoms and you would have noticed if the phone was giving you any problems.

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

.

 

[now i see it]

For as long as humans have existed, the belief in something has made it real - whether it actually does in the physical world or not.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Interesting points you make about the 12 series and the lower PWM frequency, but potentially less amplitude.

I'm a bit of a dummy with this, but maybe someone out there can help me understand.

I have no problems at all with the 12 Mini that I have had for nearly a year- from Notebookcheck, here is the PWM at 100% brightness (I set mine at about 90%- 95% brightness, and use reduce white point to keep it from truly being too bright):
View attachment 1869607

And here is what they show from the 13 Pro, stating it has DC Dimming and is likely easier on the eyes with a higher PWM frequency:

View attachment 1869620

They don't explain, but I assume what is shown here is maximum brightness, or at least brightness above 10%, since they had an alternate screenshot with much worse looking flicker, and the explanation says that there is indeed lower frequency flicker <=10% brightness.

So just looking at these two on paper- which one of these would be a more eye-pleasing flicker? I know everyone's experience might be a bit different, but I am trying to wrap my brain around the science of what we are seeing on these two- in theory it appears that the lower one- the 13 Pro- should be less troublesome.

Keep in mind the flicker on the 13 Mini is more zoomed-in since it’s captured over a shorter timeframe, 4.200ms compared to 1.960ms. Besides the higher rate they’re virtually identical.

Also, that’s over a period of a few milliseconds? Yikes.

 

[jm31828]

Keep in mind the flicker on the 13 Mini is more zoomed-in since it’s captured over a shorter timeframe, 4.200ms compared to 1.960ms. Besides the higher rate they’re virtually identical.

Also, that’s over a period of a few milliseconds? Yikes.

To clarify, that was from the 12 Mini. I haven't seen a review on the 13 Mini yet.

But thank you- I didn't catch that the 12 Mini screenshot was zoomed in vs. the 13 Pro.

Interesting, though, if these are nearly identical- at least comparing the 12 Mini at 100% brightness vs. the 13 Pro at any brightness level above 10%- that the frequency is nearly double on the 13 pro, and the conclusion is that it should be easy on the eyes.

I suppose the good news is, if the 12 Mini isn't bothering me, in theory the 13 Pro shouldn't either, as it could be better, or worst case, shouldn't be any worse.

I am tempted to order it before my carrier's $300 cash back deal ends later this week- the Pros are in stock, so I could try it out by later this week and worst case, if I absolutely can't use it, it's a $35 restocking fee to return.

 

[RobinYerbank]

I've ordered the 12 Pro Max and will give it a good go. I'll have that safe 14 days to try it out and compare it to the 11, so I figured it's worth a shot.

Since I had no trouble with the last one, I'm thinking it'll be fine! Fingers crossed! But I now know much better what symptoms to look out for, so we'll see.

My symptoms from using the 13 models have been pretty rapid-onset and obvious, though. I'm still feeling nauseous after using the 13 earlier! It's almost ruined my evening. 🤢 I erased that horrible thing, put it back in the box and it'll be going back to Apple later this week.

 

[jm31828]

I've ordered the 12 Pro Max and will give it a good go. I'll have that safe 14 days to try it out and compare it to the 11, so I figured it's worth a shot.

Since I had no trouble with the last one, I'm thinking it'll be fine! Fingers crossed! But I now know much better what symptoms to look out for, so we'll see.

My symptoms from using the 13 models have been pretty rapid-onset and obvious, though. I'm still feeling nauseous after using the 13 earlier! It's almost ruined my evening. 🤢 I erased that horrible thing, put it back in the box and it'll be going back to Apple later this week.

So sorry to hear about your experience- I hope the 12 Pro Max works out much better for you as it seemingly did in the past!

How many hours since you used the 13?

 

[RobinYerbank]

So sorry to hear about your experience- I hope the 12 Pro Max works out much better for you as it seemingly did in the past!

How many hours since you used the 13?

I tried the 13 for about 3 hours yesterday before it dawned on me that it was causing me issues. I've never experienced nausea from an iPhone before, so I think it took me some time to realise what was happening.

It only took a few minutes for me to notice nausea kicking in whilst testing it today and I've been feeling ill all evening since. 🤢

---

Call me crazy, but I'm considering trying the 13 Pro as well... When I tried the 13 Pro Max and suffered from eye strain (no nausea), I was in the middle of fighting a cold, which tends to exacerbate light sensitivity for me. I can't shake the suspicion that I didn't give the phone enough of a chance! I could've tried it for another week before sending it back.

And this is further complicated by NotebookCheck claiming the 13 Pro has DC dimming (similar to the 12 Pro)... but they haven't finished their 13 Pro Max review yet, so is it any different?!

I'm losing my mind here. All I want is the best iPhone I can comfortably use. I want to keep it for the next few years, so I want it to be as new and good as possible.

 

[JLOAKS]

Call me crazy, but I'm considering trying the 13 Pro as well... When I tried the 13 Pro Max and suffered from eye strain (no nausea), I was in the middle of fighting a cold, which tends to exacerbate light sensitivity for me. I can't shake the suspicion that I didn't give the phone enough of a chance! I could've tried it for another week before sending it back.

And this is further complicated by NotebookCheck claiming the 13 Pro has DC dimming (similar to the 12 Pro)... but they haven't finished their 13 Pro Max review yet, so is it any different?!

I'm losing my mind here. All I want is the best iPhone I can comfortably use. I want to keep it for the next few years, so I want it to be as new and good as possible.

Slo-mo brightness test the iPhones at your local Apple store. I believe all models after the 11 have PWM in varying frequencies. Look for one that has the highest flicker rate or no flicker (ex. 11).

 

[jm31828]

Slo-mo brightness test the iPhones at your local Apple store. I believe all models after the 11 have PWM in varying frequencies. Look for one that has the highest flicker rate or no flicker (ex. 11).

I did that test on Friday night at my nearest Apple store. The regular 13 and 13 Mini had a lot of flicker- strobing pretty badly on slow-mo video, but there was nothing at all with the 13 Pro- no bars moving up or down the screen, no flicker at all. Even though the Pro has PWM, something about how it's implemented- the higher frequency, and maybe more shallow amplitude to the flicker- makes it show up this way, and seemingly then would be better on the eyes?

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

I did that test on Friday night at my nearest Apple store. The regular 13 and 13 Mini had a lot of flicker- strobing pretty badly on slow-mo video, but there was nothing at all with the 13 Pro- no bars moving up or down the screen, no flicker at all. Even though the Pro has PWM, something about how it's implemented- the higher frequency, and maybe more shallow amplitude to the flicker- makes it show up this way, and seemingly then would be better on the eyes?

Here is a video I did on the 13 Pro while I had it. Mine had the scrolling bars. When watching it frame by frame in slo mo there wasn’t any flickering but the bars remained.

iPhone 13 Pro PWM

youtube.com

 

[RobinYerbank]

AHHHH!!! Screw it. I'm not going to bother with the 12 Pro Max. It doesn't sit right with me paying that much for last year's model. I'd be paying a lot of money just to go backwards.

I strongly suspect that I was suffering from eye strain from it last time, but it was to a lesser degree than the 13 Pro Max, for whatever reason. Now that I think about it, I recall having regular sore eyes with the 11 Pro Max I had before it when I was commuting via train pre-COVID. I'm starting to think I was getting something similar with the 12 Pro Max.

I'm not going to risk further discomfort and hassle, not to mention the money. The 11 is a brilliant phone that I can use comfortably as much as I want. There's a lot of value in that!

 

[ghanwani]

Will this take better pictures than the Pro/Pro Max? Last I looked these cameras took really noisy pics. You have to go to a Canon G* or Sony RX100 type camera to get excellent picture quality. It's not just stills, but low light, video, etc.

View attachment 1869467

 

[jm31828]

Here is a video I did on the 13 Pro while I had it. Mine had the scrolling bars. When watching it frame by frame in slo mo there wasn’t any flickering but the bars remained.

iPhone 13 Pro PWM

youtube.com

Interesting! Not sure why I had no bars when I did my video- maybe it was the brightness level, or the fact that there were insanely bright lights shining on the phone there at the Apple Store.

 

[MICHAELSD]

AHHHH!!! Screw it. I'm not going to bother with the 12 Pro Max. It doesn't sit right with me paying that much for last year's model. I'd be paying a lot of money just to go backwards.

I strongly suspect that I was suffering from eye strain from it last time, but it was to a lesser degree than the 13 Pro Max, for whatever reason. Now that I think about it, I recall having regular sore eyes with the 11 Pro Max I had before it when I was commuting via train pre-COVID. I'm starting to think I was getting something similar with the 12 Pro Max.

I'm not going to risk further discomfort and hassle, not to mention the money. The 11 is a brilliant phone that I can use comfortably as much as I want. There's a lot of value in that!

Exactly! I think a lot of us are forgetting we shouldn’t have to deal with any of these symptoms to use the latest-and-greatest phone.

It’s great that Apple is making improvements, but we still need a more drastic change. I’m worried I’ll have to wait until it’s truly flicker-free, which is fine at this point provided there’s a suitable LCD alternative to use in the interim.

 

[JM]

What if Apple just updated the video driver just so that flickering bars didn’t show up in slomo anymore 🤣

 

[karinatwork]

Here is a video I did on the 13 Pro while I had it. Mine had the scrolling bars. When watching it frame by frame in slo mo there wasn’t any flickering but the bars remained.

iPhone 13 Pro PWM

youtube.com

When I first got the headache with the iPhone X and found out about PWM, I took slow motion video clips of all the screens in my house. Turns out that our plasma TV (which we have had for 10+ years) has those same stripes going up and down the screen. But I never get a headache or eyestrain from that. Right now I'm battling vertigo for an unrelated issue and I cannot even try out the new 13 Pro, but I certainly will and I am still hopeful that this may be the phone for me.

 

[ghanwani]

Turns out that our plasma TV (which we have had for 10+ years) has those same stripes going up and down the screen. But I never get a headache or eyestrain from that.

Viewing distance might have something to do with it.

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

When I first got the headache with the iPhone X and found out about PWM, I took slow motion video clips of all the screens in my house. Turns out that our plasma TV (which we have had for 10+ years) has those same stripes going up and down the screen. But I never get a headache or eyestrain from that. Right now I'm battling vertigo for an unrelated issue and I cannot even try out the new 13 Pro, but I certainly will and I am still hopeful that this may be the phone for me.

My theory, and mind you it’s just that, is that other items that use PWM and implementing it at a much, much higher rate and we are not looking at them for hours at a time at mere inches from our face.

I just took this of my HP laptop for work. Interesting that this causes me zero issue whatsoever.

 

[asus389]

When I first got the headache with the iPhone X and found out about PWM, I took slow motion video clips of all the screens in my house. Turns out that our plasma TV (which we have had for 10+ years) has those same stripes going up and down the screen. But I never get a headache or eyestrain from that. Right now I'm battling vertigo for an unrelated issue and I cannot even try out the new 13 Pro, but I certainly will and I am still hopeful that this may be the phone for me.

I wonder this also. The lcds in my car flicker if you video them in slow motion but they don’t give me headaches. Most car LED headlights don’t give me headaches but clearly flicker if you video them. Most TVs don’t. But the Apple OLED phones do… it’s weird.

 

[ghanwani]

I wonder this also. The lcds in my car flicker if you video them in slow motion but they don’t give me headaches. Most car LED headlights don’t give me headaches but clearly flicker if you video them. Most TVs don’t. But the Apple OLED phones do… it’s weird.

They are further away and you barely glance at them. Not same as glued to screen scrolling, reading small text, watching video, etc.

 

[now i see it]

You’ll only see flickering when filming in slow motion if the camera shutter is out if sync in a particular way with the display.
For example, when filming in 240fps slow mo video, if you shot a video of a screen that had a flicker frequency of 240 hz or 480 hz, the resulting recording would show zero flicker because the shutter and display were synchronized

 

[MICHAELSD]

When I first got the headache with the iPhone X and found out about PWM, I took slow motion video clips of all the screens in my house. Turns out that our plasma TV (which we have had for 10+ years) has those same stripes going up and down the screen. But I never get a headache or eyestrain from that. Right now I'm battling vertigo for an unrelated issue and I cannot even try out the new 13 Pro, but I certainly will and I am still hopeful that this may be the phone for me.

It surprised me as well, but a plasma is usually flickering at a frequency that’s significantly higher around 10,000Hz and unlikely to be perceptible by someone who’s sensitive.