Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[du57in]

Terrible news. What do we do if this ends up being true? I guess I'll have to get the SE 2022 while available even though it's to small for me to type on or use for anything but phone calls and some occasional browsing the web, and then lug around an iPad. Except iPads are starting to use PWM again. My 11 won't last forever.

Apple have always been great with accessibility but they don't seem to care about flicker sensitivity.

Between the SE 2022 using the A15 and the iPad Pro 11 using the M2, that should give you until at least 2028 for current updates. If by 2029 Apple hasn't done something to alleviate issues, especially with the move to more customized MicroLED... I don't know to say.

 

[pwm away]

Terrible news. What do we do if this ends up being true? I guess I'll have to get the SE 2022 while available even though it's to small for me to type on or use for anything but phone calls and some occasional browsing the web, and then lug around an iPad. Except iPads are starting to use PWM again. My 11 won't last forever.

Even iPads (at least the Pro models) are indicated to come with OLED screens in 2024.

To me, the question around what to do is more and more moving into the territory of whether I (us PWM sensitives?) should continue with our investment in the Apple ecosystem; fair enough, you can get a SE 2022, and the latest iPads, etc., and keep them for a good 3 - 5 years, depending on your needs, but what then?

Android has more choice, and they will likely always have cheaper LCD options; but even the OLED models of some newer Android phones are now coming out with DC Dimming and 2k+ PWM frequencies.

We can hope that, perhaps just by the nature of Samsung and some others being the main screen manufacturers, when they provide better screens, that Apple will just take those on; but Apple is also known for requiring their own customisations, and if they don't care enough about this topic?

I'm currently in the market for a new phone, and am in this back and worth of whether to grab a SE 2022 (even though the small screen is becoming difficult to read for me), or whether to jump to Android for now.

 

[Jclok]

Even iPads (at least the Pro models) are indicated to come with OLED screens in 2024.

To me, the question around what to do is more and more moving into the territory of whether I (us PWM sensitives?) should continue with our investment in the Apple ecosystem; fair enough, you can get a SE 2022, and the latest iPads, etc., and keep them for a good 3 - 5 years, depending on your needs, but what then?

Android has more choice, and they will likely always have cheaper LCD options; but even the OLED models of some newer Android phones are now coming out with DC Dimming and 2k+ PWM frequencies.

We can hope that, perhaps just by the nature of Samsung and some others being the main screen manufacturers, when they provide better screens, that Apple will just take those on; but Apple is also known for requiring their own customisations, and if they don't care enough about this topic?

I'm currently in the market for a new phone, and am in this back and worth of whether to grab a SE 2022 (even though the small screen is becoming difficult to read for me), or whether to jump to Android for now.

My gosh you hit the nail on the head. I can't update iPad Pro 10.5 up past 14.8 due to changes introduced. I am already trying to plan my exit from the apple ecosystem and it is very unfortunate.

What troubles me further is that the only newer technology I see coming along will be micro LED (not mini). From my somewhat limited understanding, this tech could likely suffer from the same downfalls of OLED such as low frequency PWM for brightness and the use of temporal dithering unless the panels are natively 10-bit or higher.

As you stated, at least with Android, the possibility of manufacturers catering to our issues is a possibility as newer display tech rolls out.

--

On a side note, I notice my eyes can take a super AMOLED Samsung (top of the line) tablet more so than a newer iPad Pro. The difference isn't even close for me. Whatever Apple is doing is excessive.

 

[pwm away]

On a side note, I notice my eyes can take a super AMOLED Samsung (top of the line) tablet more so than a newer iPad Pro

It's interesting to see this regarding the iPad Pro; I've read from a number of other members that they have issues with the iPad Pros.

I have an iPad Pro 11" M2, and I don't have issues with it 🤔 ... measuring the % with my devices confirms that it stays in the same range as the LCD iPhones.

Maybe it's temporal dithering (not sure if applicable to that iPad); maybe it's 120Hz ProMotion; maybe it's the MiniLED screen ... 🤷‍♂️

 

[badger1212]

This SE news is not good at all. An internally upgraded 11 style LCD iPhone would have done me.

For those of you though who are prepared to jump ship though, the new Honor Magic 5 Pro, announced yesterday has a few features to help with flicker sensitivity....

 

[Mastrociambella]

Strangely i can now use my wife's Galaxy S23 (smaller one) without issue, while I felt immediate eye fatigue on the first days...I don't know if it's the display film applied (normal one, not antiglare though), or some update...I don't think it's habit as I use it briefly everyday just to check features and such.
I tried to use my Galaxy S21 ultra without oled saver app too, hoping that the os update had solved the issue on that too, but no luck

 

[PwmMen]

I have to say that the iPhone 14 Pro Max works for me now after several months without any problems. It was good at the beginning, then there was a short bad phase, but it's been fine since then. I think my brain and eyes are used to the display now. I'm so glad to have a recent iPhone and the iPhone 14 Pro Max is the perfect iPhone for me. Ok, a micro LED display would probably be even better. But after years of agony, I don't want to complain. I'm grateful the iPhone 14 Pro Max is going.

 

[badger1212]

I have to say that the iPhone 14 Pro Max works for me now after several months without any problems. It was good at the beginning, then there was a short bad phase, but it's been fine since then. I think my brain and eyes are used to the display now. I'm so glad to have a recent iPhone and the iPhone 14 Pro Max is the perfect iPhone for me. Ok, a micro LED display would probably be even better. But after years of agony, I don't want to complain. I'm grateful the iPhone 14 Pro Max is going.

Great news. Did you have to take breaks from it at the beginning before you got used to it or did you just use it as normal and the symptoms gradually disappeared?

 

[PwmMen]

I didn't have to take breaks. I only had tired eyes on the iPhone 14 Pro Max. After a few days, I had nothing more, and after about 2 weeks, it came again. Now I have had no trial for a long time. I am satisfied and enjoy the time with my iPhone 14 pro max.

 

[5105973]

Terrible news. What do we do if this ends up being true? I guess I'll have to get the SE 2022 while available even though it's to small for me to type on or use for anything but phone calls and some occasional browsing the web, and then lug around an iPad. Except iPads are starting to use PWM again. My 11 won't last forever.

Apple have always been great with accessibility but they don't seem to care about flicker sensitivity.

I had to really force myself not to make a snarky comment on one of the news articles about Apple making glasses to help people with vision problems. 😡👿😡🤬

They know well and good what they’re doing to some of us because we’ve told them. They don’t care. If they cared they’d make an accessibility setting. I think a lot of this could be fixed with software but then they’d lose all the accolades for screen color and probably battery life would take a significant hit.

My S22 Ultra has a display that doesn’t bother me at all with pwm issues. But the battery life stinks. My s23 Ultra (I just got a new one) has excellent battery life but a redesigned OLED panel that does flicker and looks aesthetically less appealing than my S22 Ultra display due to increased off axis color shift.

But people are raving about the battery life so that’s where things are headed.

I returned my 1TB Launch day s23 Ultra because it was giving me pounding headaches and had an uneven ugly display with horrible off axis shift. You had to hold the phone perfectly straight in front of your Face if you want to see a white display.

The new S23 Ultra display on my second phone is considerably more even and just looks better overall. I’m able to use it pretty well. I can feel some effect but I’m not getting pounding headaches yet. And I’ve logged 8 hours on it in one go when I was sick in bed with a virus.

I don’t find it completely comfortable for watching a movie. I feel some eye strain. So I’ll go back to my Amazon Fire tablet to watch movies.

I switch amongst my 14 Pro Max, s23 Ultra and S22 Ultra (which I’m keeping) when I’m home. Lol I do get 2-3 days on a charge per device doing this!

The device I carry with me when I go out is the iPhone due to iMessage but when I go to visit my mom at Assisted Living it will be my S23 Ultra that has my second AT&T sim in it. I use the S Pen a lot when I’m making lists of things she needs.

I don’t really use my LCD iPhones a whole lot right now. In the summer if I can get the e Sim to cooperate, I will, since they’re smaller and lighter phones to carry in the pockets of summer clothes and summer purses.

 

[5105973]

Reading up on PWM again while looking for info on the S23 Ultra.

This hurts my brain.......

Assessment of the effect on the human body of the flicker of OLED displays of smartphones

I wasn’t able to read that article. It says my IP number can’t permit me access.

What was the overall message?

 

[1369281]

Reading up on PWM again while looking for info on the S23 Ultra.

This hurts my brain.......

Assessment of the effect on the human body of the flicker of OLED displays of smartphones

Thank you for posting this.

I had high hopes for this, but then I read it. It seems to offer nothing. Not surprising, since it was authored by a staff engineer at Samsung Display -- the biggest perpetrator of low frequency PWM OLED panels...

Samsung is using 240 Hz PWM in their latest/greatest products. Horrible company that truly does not care about its customers in any way. They don't even make an attempt. Not surprising based on how they treat their employees. But an American company like Apple should not stand for this PWM nonsense.

As I am sure you agree, we don't need a paper to tell us if PWM is an issue or not... we know that it is. The only solution is to stop using PWM.

 

[user1234]

I had to really force myself not to make a snarky comment on one of the news articles about Apple making glasses to help people with vision problems. 😡👿😡🤬

They know well and good what they’re doing to some of us because we’ve told them. They don’t care. If they cared they’d make an accessibility setting. I think a lot of this could be fixed with software but then they’d lose all the accolades for screen color and probably battery life would take a significant hit.

My S22 Ultra has a display that doesn’t bother me at all with pwm issues. But the battery life stinks. My s23 Ultra (I just got a new one) has excellent battery life but a redesigned OLED panel that does flicker and looks aesthetically less appealing than my S22 Ultra display due to increased off axis color shift.

But people are raving about the battery life so that’s where things are headed.

I returned my 1TB Launch day s23 Ultra because it was giving me pounding headaches and had an uneven ugly display with horrible off axis shift. You had to hold the phone perfectly straight in front of your Face if you want to see a white display.

The new S23 Ultra display on my second phone is considerably more even and just looks better overall. I’m able to use it pretty well. I can feel some effect but I’m not getting pounding headaches yet. And I’ve logged 8 hours on it in one go when I was sick in bed with a virus.

I don’t find it completely comfortable for watching a movie. I feel some eye strain. So I’ll go back to my Amazon Fire tablet to watch movies.

I switch amongst my 14 Pro Max, s23 Ultra and S22 Ultra (which I’m keeping) when I’m home. Lol I do get 2-3 days on a charge per device doing this!

The device I carry with me when I go out is the iPhone due to iMessage but when I go to visit my mom at Assisted Living it will be my S23 Ultra that has my second AT&T sim in it. I use the S Pen a lot when I’m making lists of things she needs.

I don’t really use my LCD iPhones a whole lot right now. In the summer if I can get the e Sim to cooperate, I will, since they’re smaller and lighter phones to carry in the pockets of summer clothes and summer purses.

So the S23 took a step back in terms of display tolerability? What a shame.

There are multiple studies of how flicker negatively affect people, yet manufacturers don't seem to care that much.

I'm glad you found a solution that works for you even though it doesn't sound ideal. Unfortunately I use a fair number of applications only available on iOS so Android isn't really an option for me. I just have to hope Apple come to their senses at some point not too far from now. Ideally I'll get two more years out of my 11, then I don't know what to do.

 

[user1234]

Between the SE 2022 using the A15 and the iPad Pro 11 using the M2, that should give you until at least 2028 for current updates. If by 2029 Apple hasn't done something to alleviate issues, especially with the move to more customized MicroLED... I don't know to say.

Yeah but I can't use the SE for a lot of what I use my 11 for due to the tiny screen. Can't type well on it, I've tried, need a wider screen and the height is not enough to fit content and the keyboard at the same time when remotely managing servers over SSH for those times a config change is needed away from a computer.

It would be a huge downgrade from the 11.

I have no hope about microLED on its own changing anything. I don't know why some believe it will. It uses the same backplane. The difference is that the LEDs aren't made of organic material anymore. The biggest benefit is that degradation and image retention will be much less of an issue, but the backplane also needs work to be flicker free. Yes there is DC dimming but LEDs lose color accuracy when dimmed that way. I don't know what the solution would be other than sticking to tried and true LCD.

 

[Vref]

Do those blue light filter screen protectors help,

Got a $35 screen protector, had a normal one and a blue light filter one for like $2, figured why not, I’m not sure I can tell a difference

 

[5105973]

Deleted. Posted on wrong thread.

 

[5105973]

Deleted. Posted on wrong thread.

 

[1369281]

Do those blue light filter screen protectors help,

Got a $35 screen protector, had a normal one and a blue light filter one for like $2, figured why not, I’m not sure I can tell a difference

They definitely do not help with the negative effects of pulse-width modulation (PWM). Apples and oranges.

They, theoretically, may help reduce blue light if that is your intention.

With that said, don't walk outside if you are trying to get away from blue light.

If you want to reduce blue light when using your device at night, there is a setting called "Night Shift" which will do that.

 

[pwm away]

DXOMARK released their Honor Magic5 Pro display test; they are calling this a flicker-free AMOLED screen.

See: Honor Magic5 Pro Display test

The Honor Magic5 Pro was flicker-free, which is still rare among OLED displays, making the device more comfortable to use in low light.

As the graph below shows, the Magic5 Pro’s first relevant peak occurred at 1910 Hz, whereas the iPhone 14 Pro Max’s first relevant peak was at 480 Hz and the Galaxy S23 Ultra’s was at 240 Hz. While the Magic5 Pro’s display demonstrated some peaks just before 500 Hz, those peaks never went beyond -10 dB as they did for the iPhone and the Galaxy, and were not taken into account.

Perhaps that's a good sign, although Apple likes to do their own thing.

 

[PwmMen]

DXOMARK hat seinen Honor Magic5 Pro Display-Test veröffentlicht; sie nennen dies einen flackernfreien AMOLED-Bildschirm.

Thats sounds really good.
I will test the Honor Magic 5 Pro.

 

[Leindt]

DXOMARK released their Honor Magic5 Pro display test; they are calling this a flicker-free AMOLED screen.

See: Honor Magic5 Pro Display test



Perhaps that's a good sign, although Apple likes to do their own thing.

God hear you and these technologies will eventually improve 😂 If other companies achieve something like this, sooner or later it will happen at Apple.

Let's see what other reviews say about the Honor Magic5 Pro screen, because each source analyses the screens in a different way.

Although in the presentation of the Honor Magic5 Pro I saw that they made a special emphasis on eye care, so that's a good sign, but looking for videos the flickering still exists, so I don't know, I get lost in these things:

视频去哪了呢？_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

undefined, 视频播放量 undefined、弹幕量 undefined、点赞数 undefined、投硬币枚数 undefined、收藏人数 undefined、转发人数 undefined, 视频作者 undefined, 作者简介 undefined，相关视频：

www.bilibili.com

荣耀 Magic 5 Pro 上手体验 频闪测试_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

高频pwm, 视频播放量 14557、弹幕量 14、点赞数 164、投硬币枚数 21、收藏人数 28、转发人数 27, 视频作者 账号已注销, 作者简介 ，相关视频：magic5pro和magic6pro频闪对比，荣耀magic5和magic5pro屏闪，中高亮度类DC。低亮度2160高频调光，嗯，很好。，荣耀magic5pro对比华为p60pro频闪，荣耀magic5pro更新8.0后还能再战三年，怎么我的荣耀magic5pro频闪严重？，实测荣耀magic5 频闪 pwm调光频率 不同亮度波动深度，荣耀Magic 5频闪展示和上手体验，荣耀Magic5...

www.bilibili.com

 

[Evilxardas]

I didn't try 60hz because I now have a zero-tolerance attitude after all these years of eye strain. I've tried too many workarounds and suffered enough headaches - if I feel my eyes straining or stinging the device gets rejected.

Didn't go Air 5 because I wanted the quad speakers and ProMotion display + the refurb price for the Pro M1 is cheaper than a new Air 5. Jelly scroll is now very apparent to me on iPads and the ProMotion display helps reduce it although I can still see it on Pro iPads.

It's fine, I gave up on iPads years ago and I guess they're not coming back for me. A laptop is a better bet long term IF I can use the screen on the M2 Air.

I am using the iphone X and ipad air 2 but i can't use:

- Ipad 10th
- Ipad pro 10,5"
- Iphone 14 pro
- MBA 2018 / MBA M1 / MBP 16" 2019

I will try the iPad pro 12.9 M2 that seems good to my brain, at least after 10 minutes at the apple store.

Keep in mind that the macbooks I have tried are unusable even connected to my 3 external monitors (two CCFLs and one 240hz LED). So PWM really has nothing to do with my symptoms and I am pretty sure that is the case for most of you as well.

 

[1369281]

DXOMARK released their Honor Magic5 Pro display test; they are calling this a flicker-free AMOLED screen.

See: Honor Magic5 Pro Display test



Perhaps that's a good sign, although Apple likes to do their own thing.

Unfortunately, "flicker-free" is a term that is abused. Some people use that term if their own eyes can't see a flicker. There were once lightbulbs that flickered noticeably to the human eye for various reasons. The term "flicker-free" sometimes is referring to no PWM, but a lot of times it is not.

1920Hz PWM is not flicker-free.

 

[du57in]

Unfortunately, "flicker-free" is a term that is abused. Some people use that term if their own eyes can't see a flicker. There were once lightbulbs that flickered noticeably to the human eye for various reasons. The term "flicker-free" sometimes is referring to no PWM, but a lot of times it is not.

1920Hz PWM is not flicker-free.

I’ve read that 3,000Hz is somewhere around the human limits of perception. But flicker free should mean zero flicker. Period.

 

[pwm away]

NotebookCheck have their S23 Ultra review out: Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra review

According to them, it uses DC Dimming:

Even the OLED panel of the Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra is not spared from flickering. In our measurements, we observed a constant frequency of 120 Hz at minimum brightness. This may sound low at first, but can be classified as relatively easy on the eyes due to the flat period curve. If the brightness is increased, the frequency doubles, but remains at a constant level. Slight fluctuations only occur between 240 and 250 Hz during touch inputs. The panel's behavior corresponds to that of one with permanent DC dimming, even if Samsung does not specify this.