Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[from reddit the_top_g]

I don't pretend to be an expert but I don't think that 480 hz would be a fixed frequency. But rather that is the frequency used at max brightness and if you cut the brightness in half the frequency is halved. Thats what im seeing in Opple. Which would seem to make sense as pwm is used to regulate brightness.

Yes, that is absolutely the case with iphone 15 & 15 PM.

Apple locks the flickers frequency at 480 hertz when on higher brightness.

When there is no change in the thickness of the banding as one lowers the brightness, that is not PWM anymore.

It is called "hybrid dimming".

Here we see that at 75% brightness the banding size remained somewhat the same ~ as the banding size from 100% brightness. Hence PWM has yet to kick in.

Brightness 75%

When below 50% we start to see the banding artifact become wider. This is approximately the brightness where PWM of 240 hertz kicks in. Furthermore, we see 2 different alternating size banding here. We have a thicker one followed by a thinner one. This here is the overlapping (2x) 240 hertz of different timing intervals I was referring to.

Below data measurements supports the above

Brightness 50%

With brightness below 10% is where PWM is at its worst ; where you barely have any good screen on time.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Like previous iPhones, 50% brightness is much easier on the eyes as far as PWM. Unlike previous iPhones, this feels less migraine-inducing. However, this is too bright for my current lighting conditions.

I think there is more going on here this year, and I’m curious if there’s a certain brightness level where the worst PWM stops so I can program the Auto-Brightness. Lower brightness per the Auto-Brightness felt too dim and oddly harder to focus on.

After watching two minutes of Ted Lasso, I’m slightly more optimistic. Huh.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Thank you for explaining this. I'm going to order the 15 based on the test results I found here. I already orderd the 15p and I'm going to give them both a try.

Ok I'll be delighted to know your experience with both.

If time permits, I'll also elaborate on why Apple went with two very different implementation here.

The keyword is "longer wavelength vs shorter wavelength"

Longer wavelength (iphone 15 / 15 Plus)

View attachment 2278997


Shorter wavelength(iphone 15 Pro / PM):

 

[MICHAELSD]

Guys, I’m using an OLED iPhone and my eyes aren’t throbbing. Mind blown. Fingers crossed once I get up and stop watching Ted Lasso this continues, but I’ll still be pessimistic till that happens.

Ok I'll be delighted to know your experience with both.

If time permits, I'll also elaborate on why Apple went with two very different implementation here.

The keyword is "longer wavelength vs shorter wavelength"

Longer wavelength (iphone 15 / 15 Plus)

View attachment 2278997


Shorter wavelength(iphone 15 Pro / PM):

View attachment 2278999

Hey, can you comment on whether there’s a brightness level where the ‘worst’ PWM stops on iPhone 15 Pro?

I disabled auto-brightness and I’ve been using my brightness shortcuts, currently at 40% which is probably a little too high for me currently but lower brightnesses feel worse. Not a fan of Reduce White Point nor do I find that it helps reduce the negative effect.

Probably a honeymoon phase but this is my best experience so far with an OLED iPhone. Getting up and seeing if I have any persistent headaches since I basically unboxed it and sat on the couch so far will be the real test.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Guys, I’m using an OLED iPhone and my eyes aren’t throbbing. Mind blown. Fingers crossed once I get up and stop watching Ted Lasso this continues, but I’ll still pessimistic till that happens.

Hey, can you comment on whether there’s a brightness level where the ‘worst’ PWM stops on iPhone 15 Pro?

I disabled auto-brightness and I’ve been using my brightness shortcuts, currently at 40% which is probably a little too high for me currently but lower brightnesses feel worse. Not a fan of Reduce White Point nor do I find that it helps reduce the negative effect.

Probably a honeymoon phase but this is my best experience so far with an OLED iPhone. Getting up and seeing if I have any persistent headaches since I basically unboxed it and sat on the couch so far will be the real test.

Sure. This brightness and below is where I think PWM is at its worst (while 10% and below would be highly dangerous for those that extra sensitive). I can't really tell what's the exact brightness based from here, but I imagine it looks about 20%-ish.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Sure. This brightness and below is where I think PWM is at its worse. I can't really tell what's the exact brightness based from here, but I imagine it looks about 20%-ish.


View attachment 2279006

It’s hard to see the sun in that image. I raised it to 15%, just above the bottom dot on the sun, and it’s not unbearable. HDR content looks incredible. I’m growing more optimistic that there’s a lower PWM range where if it’s avoided it’s not nearly as bad as expected. 🤞

The flicker in slo-mo looks different than what I’ve seen before on an iPhone, but flicker is flicker. Then again who knew flicker could be so complex.

 

[5105973]

At some point some of us have to draw the line and say no.
For some of us, an OLED display on any device is a no-go.

Gotta remember that if iPhones didn't have cameras, most people wouldn't upgrade as often as they do. Nothing much changes except the camera and SOC.

Pro Tip:
Buy a real camera that's only a camera. It will take superior pictures to an iPhone probably for 20 years... then you'll discover that there's suddenly little reason to upgrade an iPhone.

Not really. I am not comfortable on any of the computer displays I’ve tried in the last 15 years. Even if I don’t get headaches, I have a horrible time focusing.

My iPhone is my computer. I don’t really use my MacBook Air for much except playing Sims. Even that it’s a trial.

I haven’t logged any headaches YET with my 15 Pro Max. No weird feelings in my head. But there’s definitely eye strain. I have been struggling with dry eyes and using drops. But I know the display is contributing to the discomfort of my eyes.

My husband’s got a 15 Pro Max. Same color same storage as mine. His display is amazing. It looks like colorful e ink. It’s so crisp and clear. He’s really thrilled with it. He noticed right away it was better and even he perceived it as less flickery than the one on his 14 Pro Max. So he DOES perceive flicker after all. He just isn’t made sick by it, thank goodness!

I got slightly less lucky with the screen lottery. Mine isn’t as crisp but the color is even and good. Most everyone else would deem it perfect. But once you’ve seen my husband’s display, it’s just freaking gorgeous! True perfection!

Still, appearances aren’t everything. It’s possible I could use my husband’s phone for an hour and still be experiencing eye fatigue. My Pixel 6 Pro had a similarly gorgeous display and I couldn’t look at it after awhile. So no, I won’t be asking my husband to trade phones.

I gotta be careful I don’t wake up with Jimmy’s symptoms tomorrow. I watched a movie on my 15 Pro Max earlier.

I have a 15 here on my table but it’s my daughter’s. It’s not set up yet because she’s had guests over and she’s been too busy and needing her busted up 14 Pro. I can only look at two initial screens on it but I can see it’s sort of comfortable.

I suppose I could try a 14 Plus and compare them but I can’t get the pink one I would really want before I would have to return my 15 Pro Max. Only the other colors are available for pickup and I don’t want any of those. I know beggars can’t be choosers but no, it’s pink or nothing!

I would really want a regular 15 but I guess that’s not as good as the 15 Plus? Is that what you guys concluded?

Unfortunately even before I got the 15 Pro Max my 12 Pro Max gave me some bad eye strain when I spent too much time on the thread tracking everyone’s new phone arrivals.

Ok I’m off to bed. I will see how this goes.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

It’s hard to see the sun in that image. I raised it to 15%, just above the bottom dot on the sun, and it’s not unbearable. HDR content looks incredible. I’m growing more optimistic that there’s a lower PWM range where if it’s avoided it’s not nearly as bad as expected. 🤞

The flicker in slo-mo looks different than what I’ve seen before on an iPhone, but flicker is flicker. Then again who knew flicker could be so complex.

Indeed!

 

[MICHAELSD]

Not really. I am not comfortable on any of the computer displays I’ve tried in the last 15 years. Even if I don’t get headaches, I have a horrible time focusing.

My iPhone is my computer. I don’t really use my MacBook Air for much except playing Sims. Even that it’s a trial.

I haven’t logged any headaches YET with my 15 Pro Max. No weird feelings in my head. But there’s definitely eye strain. I have been struggling with dry eyes and using drops. But I know the display is contributing to the discomfort of my eyes.

My husband’s got a 15 Pro Max. Same color same storage as mine. His display is amazing. It looks like colorful e ink. It’s so crisp and clear. He’s really thrilled with it. He noticed right away it was better and even he perceived it as less flickery than the one on his 14 Pro Max. So he DOES perceive flicker after all. He just isn’t made sick by it, thank goodness!

I got slightly less lucky with the screen lottery. Mine isn’t as crisp but the color is even and good. Most everyone else would deem it perfect. But once you’ve seen my husband’s display, it’s just freaking gorgeous! True perfection!

Still, appearances aren’t everything. It’s possible I could use my husband’s phone for an hour and still be experiencing eye fatigue. My Pixel 6 Pro had a similarly gorgeous display and I couldn’t look at it after awhile. So no, I won’t be asking my husband to trade phones.

I gotta be careful I don’t wake up with Jimmy’s symptoms tomorrow. I watched a movie on my 15 Pro Max earlier.

I have a 15 here on my table but it’s my daughter’s. It’s not set up yet because she’s had guests over and she’s been too busy and needing her busted up 14 Pro. I can only look at two initial screens on it but I can see it’s sort of comfortable.

I suppose I could try a 14 Plus and compare them but I can’t get the pink one I would really want before I would have to return my 15 Pro Max. Only the other colors are available for pickup and I don’t want any of those. I know beggars can’t be choosers but no, it’s pink or nothing!

I would really want a regular 15 but I guess that’s not as good as the 15 Plus? Is that what you guys concluded?

Unfortunately even before I got the 15 Pro Max my 12 Pro Max gave me some bad eye strain when I spent too much time on the thread tracking everyone’s new phone arrivals.

Ok I’m off to bed. I will see how this goes.

My eyes were watering from running the brightness higher since it really wasn’t easy to focus at the auto-brightness brightness level. Otherwise I haven’t had as quick of a negative response as usual.

But at least we can appreciate the quality that Apple’s display engineers are able to get out of these OLED panels:

 

[5105973]

Is there anyone else here who feels like whether or not the 15 series is tolerable, they do NOT want to use a phone that is strobing in their face or OLED for the myriad of other issues? Panel lottery, jelly scroll, color shifting, screen tinting, horrible subpixel layouts…

I used to review Android phones when OLED was relatively new for a couple sites that are shut down now but back around that time I ALWAYS preferred to go back to an iPhone because I thought the LCD displays looked better and were much easier on the eyes.

I used to use a Samsung S7 Edge. Because of the edge and the strong blue light that display gave off it was like staring at a fluorescent light tube. But I never had any problems from it. It was just mildly annoying. So I’m willing to keep trying for short bits of time. I’m old enough that if this garbage doesn’t kill or maim me something else will.

I just got off a two week experiment one of my doctors was trying to treat autoimmune issues I have. It was not fun. Not at all. Beating myself in the brain with strobing lights is what I do for amusement at this point.

 

[5105973]

My eyes were watering from running the brightness higher since it really wasn’t easy to focus at the auto-brightness brightness level. Otherwise I haven’t had as quick of a negative response as usual.

But at least we can appreciate the quality that Apple’s display engineers are able to get out of these OLED panels:

That cat in the tiger suit! 😅🤣 I haven’t watched all of it but yeah it’s pretty.

 

[MICHAELSD]

That cat in the tiger suit! 😅🤣 I haven’t watched all of it but yeah it’s pretty.

My iPhone is still loading it past that point because of all the apps it’s downloading. 😂

Assuming this works I’m slightly concerned 128GB isn’t enough storage, but I don’t want to go through the panel lottery. My first iPhone 13 mini definitely had a better display to my taste than the second.

So far I would say this iPhone 15 Pro is better than both the iPhone 13 mini and iPhone 14 Pro Max, but obviously I’ll need more time to figure that out.

One of the first orders of business was disabling the auto-brightness. Reduce White Point is unnecessary.

 

[MICHAELSD]

The odd part to me thus far is that HDR content has been totally sensitivity-free, but the iOS interface is still difficult and less comfortable to focus on than a Liquid Retina display.

Maybe we need an HDR iOS interface?

Kidding aside, if that’s not a good idea, I’d speculate it’s because the brightness level is high enough with HDR content that there’s no intrusive PWM.

 

[jm31828]

I do too, but sadly, there’s no clue for this to happen.

Today I’ve been on the Apple Store, and the iPhone 15 didn’t feel quite right. It’s difficult to notice it in just 10 minutes, but I didn’t feel too comfortable with the brightness at 20%.

I tested the screen with a high sensitivity / high framerate video app, and the flicker was the same as past year’s devices, both the Pro and the regular iPhone.

At this point, I’m seriously considering getting a 128GB iPhone SE 3, and sticking with it, because in addition to PWM, the iPhone 15 (which is gorgeous in person, both the green and the black ones) it’s way too big for my hand.

The SE 3, with the same shape and weight of my iPhone 8, feels sooo good and comfortable in one hand, that I’ve decided to stick with that, and forget about new technologies or better cameras.

My only gripe with the SE 3 is that there’s also a screen lottery, where some screens are significantly dimmer than my iPhone 8, and other screens have almost the same brightness as my iPhone 8. So I guess this Christmas is iPhone SE 3 lottery time!

PS: I also have an excellent M2 11” iPad Pro, @MICHAELSD, with a gorgeous screen that, as you said, could be the best LCD Apple has ever shipped. Let’s hope it has a long, long support time!

Regarding that iPad Pro. I know it has no PWM, but I have read that there is still something called "ripples" in the display frequency, some sort of modulation- that some without technically having PWM still have ripples (I have heard the iPhone SE3 has that, for example- which can still bother some people).

Does anyone here who knows more about this stuff than I know if the iPad Pro has ripples, or if it is truly PWM-Free (as opposed to PWM-safe)?

 

[orbitalpunk]

Got the iphone 15 and 15 Pro in hand. From my experince the 15 Pro is much more tollerable. I feel a little head tension maybe after an hour of use. but eyes are ok. on the 15, my eyes are just burning like a California forest fire. So returning the 15 and trying the Pro for a week. My god the camera and RAW capture is so good.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Got the iphone 15 and 15 Pro in hand. From my experince the 15 Pro is much more tollerable. I feel a little head tension maybe after an hour of use. but eyes are ok. on the 15, my eyes are just burning like a California forest fire. So returning the 15 and trying the Pro for a week. My god the camera and RAW capture is so good.

15 Pro is more comfortable than the 15 with a better display to boot for me as well. I suspect that’s real 60Hz PWM and we’re getting a more sophisticated brightness controller on the Pro.

I was worried about getting up since I knew that would lead to a migraine. No real issues so far.

Honestly shocked to be saying that. I’ll be flabbergasted if this continues.

 

[jm31828]

Guys, I’m using an OLED iPhone and my eyes aren’t throbbing. Mind blown. Fingers crossed once I get up and stop watching Ted Lasso this continues, but I’ll still be pessimistic till that happens.

Hey, can you comment on whether there’s a brightness level where the ‘worst’ PWM stops on iPhone 15 Pro?

I disabled auto-brightness and I’ve been using my brightness shortcuts, currently at 40% which is probably a little too high for me currently but lower brightnesses feel worse. Not a fan of Reduce White Point nor do I find that it helps reduce the negative effect.

Probably a honeymoon phase but this is my best experience so far with an OLED iPhone. Getting up and seeing if I have any persistent headaches since I basically unboxed it and sat on the couch so far will be the real test.

That's amazing, I'm so happy for you! Fingers crossed it truly works out.

 

[MICHAELSD]

That's amazing, I'm so happy for you! Fingers crossed it truly works out.

Thanks so much, friend!

I’m in disbelief currently, and it will be that way for some time if I am genuinely able to activate this and keep it long-term.

My biggest issue is that lower brightnesses just feel too dim, and auto-brightness is aggressive. At the same time I’m not feeling the auto-brightness adjustments like I normally would, which indicates I’m not as sensitive to the frequencies used. So I’m trying to figure out the middle ground where the display isn’t too dim, I believe that strong PWM modulations make it more difficult for me to focus on the display, and where it isn’t eye-wateringly bright. Once I figure that out I could probably program the auto-brightness, but I don’t want to do it just yet or else it’ll be too bright all the time.

But this is a start and so far major progress from where my eyes would normally be throbbing and I would have a persistent headache while typing this. So far neither.

 

[PwmMen]

Now after 2 days of use, it is clear to me that the iPhone 15 Pro Max is the best I have ever had in terms of PWM.
After long-term use, I get a little eye fatigue, but no pain at all. It is 100% better than iPhone 13/14 Pro/Max.
I won't be testing the iPhone 15/Plus because the 14/Plus was the worst iPhone I've ever tested.
I can only encourage you to test the iPhone 15 Pro/Max.

 

[jm31828]

Has anyone decided to just use your phone sparingly for pictures and quick lookups or app usage, and otherwise just use an iPad for longer browsing/media consumption sessions? If so, has anyone picked up the iPad Mini 6 and had good luck with it?
I know it only has PWM below 10% brightness, but was curious how it has truly worked out for any of you- is it comfortable?

 

[orbitalpunk]

Now after 2 days of use, it is clear to me that the iPhone 15 Pro Max is the best I have ever had in terms of PWM.
After long-term use, I get a little eye fatigue, but no pain at all. It is 100% better than iPhone 13/14 Pro/Max.
I won't be testing the iPhone 15/Plus because the 14/Plus was the worst iPhone I've ever tested.
I can only encourage you to test the iPhone 15 Pro/Max.

you, me and @MICHAELSD are both having better experinces on the Pro versus the non-Pro which is interesting since @from reddit the_top_g tests indicated the 15 would have been better (lower risk). Im still very appreciative of @from reddit the_top_g efforts, regardless.

 

[DJTaurus]

you, me and @MICHAELSD are both having better experinces on the Pro versus the non-Pro which is interesting since @from reddit the_top_g tests indicated the 15 would have been better (lower risk). Im still very appreciative of @from reddit the_top_g efforts, regardless.

Did you try the 15 non pro too ?

 

[orbitalpunk]

Has anyone decided to just use your phone sparingly for pictures and quick lookups or app usage, and otherwise just use an iPad for longer browsing/media consumption sessions? If so, has anyone picked up the iPad Mini 6 and had good luck with it?
I know it only has PWM below 10% brightness, but was curious how it has truly worked out for any of you- is it comfortable?

ive consdiered this. by keeping my 11 if i need some longer term usage. cause with the 15 pro the camera really is amazing to capturing moment conviently. someone else said just buy a real camera. i own a Canon R5 and GFX100s and as a profession photographer, its not the same has having a phone in your pocket to caputre at a moemnts notice. also the size has its advantages. i was doing a macro shot of my cats face while he was hidding in a box with the phone using the onboard light and it was incredible. first my canon or Fuji would never fit in the box and the size of flash needed would scare my cat away. they all have their use cases.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Did you try the 15 non pro too ?

Only in the store, but I could immediately tell that both the display quality was inferior and that it caused more immediate sensitivity. iPhone 14 turned me off of it, but let’s face it: the Pro is a major upgrade regardless.

So far my experience has been much better with iPhone 15 Pro than any OLED iPhone to date.

My main issue is figuring out a comfortable brightness indoors, and my biggest takeaway with the device in my hand is that there is a certain frequency or PWM shift at lower brightness levels where it becomes more comfortable once the brightness is set higher. Currently rocking 30% which is slightly too bright but not bad as far as PWM.

More takeaways to share tomorrow. Glad I bought this for testing. Cautiously optimistic.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Regarding that iPad Pro. I know it has no PWM, but I have read that there is still something called "ripples" in the display frequency, some sort of modulation- that some without technically having PWM still have ripples (I have heard the iPhone SE3 has that, for example- which can still bother some people).

Does anyone here who knows more about this stuff than I know if the iPad Pro has ripples, or if it is truly PWM-Free (as opposed to PWM-safe)?

That would probably must have been brought up by me in the pwm sensitive sub.

Though by pwm free, do you mean pwm free as defined by notebookcheck?

As engineers, when they meant pwm free, they meant it is free of the modulation technique used. They focused on the (M) noun within PWM.

For me as the end user, I focus on the (P) in PWM and only care whether if there are pulsing flickering.

Thus when I propose the concept of PWM-free in my post, I meant free of pulses. Not free of PWM modulation technique.

Back to the question; Ripples are not pulses but are subtle very rapid inconsistent trembles in the brightness.

No one is able to know unless someone test it with Opple and look at the graph.