Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[du57in]

Is there anyone else here who feels like whether or not the 15 series is tolerable, they do NOT want to use a phone that is strobing in their face or OLED for the myriad of other issues? Panel lottery, jelly scroll, color shifting, screen tinting, horrible subpixel layouts…

I used to review Android phones when OLED was relatively new for a couple sites that are shut down now but back around that time I ALWAYS preferred to go back to an iPhone because I thought the LCD displays looked better and were much easier on the eyes.

 

[Artvandelay1212]

We are all waiting your tomorrow findings

I'll definitely report back.

 

[MICHAELSD]

I do too, but sadly, there’s no clue for this to happen.

Today I’ve been on the Apple Store, and the iPhone 15 didn’t feel quite right. It’s difficult to notice it in just 10 minutes, but I didn’t feel too comfortable with the brightness at 20%.

I tested the screen with a high sensitivity / high framerate video app, and the flicker was the same as past year’s devices, both the Pro and the regular iPhone.

At this point, I’m seriously considering getting a 128GB iPhone SE 3, and sticking with it, because in addition to PWM, the iPhone 15 (which is gorgeous in person, both the green and the black ones) it’s way too big for my hand.

The SE 3, with the same shape and weight of my iPhone 8, feels sooo good and comfortable in one hand, that I’ve decided to stick with that, and forget about new technologies or better cameras.

My only gripe with the SE 3 is that there’s also a screen lottery, where some screens are significantly dimmer than my iPhone 8, and other screens have almost the same brightness as my iPhone 8. So I guess this Christmas is iPhone SE 3 lottery time!

PS: I also have an excellent M2 11” iPad Pro, @MICHAELSD, with a gorgeous screen that, as you said, could be the best LCD Apple has ever shipped. Let’s hope it has a long, long support time!

I’m incredibly skeptical about either the iPhone 15 or iPhone 15 Pro working even ran at 100% brightness with Accessibility settings all the time. The times I’ve had temporary and moderate success with OLED panels I was either fasting like I am now then started using the iPhone in the case of iPhone 14 Pro Max, or I had excessive caffeine or attempted to mitigate symptoms. All of that led to zero positive adjustment. Isn’t it quite silly that we have to worry about possibly adjusting to a $1,000+ smartphone and creating all of these workarounds that don’t ultimately work?

At least the 11” iPad Pro should last at least seven years before it’s considered obsolete.

Maybe you shouldn't try the devices in an electronics store? The user the_top_g also writes about headaches caused by lighting. Not that your headaches come from this or are potentiated in combination with an OLED?

Based on the measured values alone, the non-Pro models for OLED perform quite well. It would be interesting to see how the two Pro models perform if their displays are set to 60 Hz.

Here the user mentioned above explains some basics:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/14qin8m

I did find iPhone 14 to look comfortable in an Apple Store, then purchased it and found out in the quickest timeframe I’ve ever owned an iPhone that it wasn’t for me. 15 minutes of using it and even 100% brightness caused headaches. At least I now know that it’s probably pointless to try the standard iPhone 15, as the frequency/modulation are similar.

At least iPhone 15 is quite consistent with Reduce White Point enabled according to @pwm away. It doesn’t make nearly the same difference on the Pro models as far as modulation.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Is there anyone else here who feels like whether or not the 15 series is tolerable, they do NOT want to use a phone that is strobing in their face or OLED for the myriad of other issues? Panel lottery, jelly scroll, color shifting, screen tinting, horrible subpixel layouts…

I used to review Android phones when OLED was relatively new for a couple sites that are shut down now but back around that time I ALWAYS preferred to go back to an iPhone because I thought the LCD displays looked better and were much easier on the eyes.

That’s the concern, isn’t it? We’re using all of these workarounds and even then we’re still staring at a flickering display.

 

[melliflu]

Some hopes the first day with my 15PM, but today, after 4 hours of total use, eye-strain and that very specific headache (I have headaches only about once every couple months...) So I'll return it and get back to my 11 with its weak battery... Refusing to get the awful SE3 so looking elsewhere, some hopes with e-ink phones... For now the Hisense e-ink line is not making progress, too many flaws...

 

[jm31828]

I am worried realistically since there’s not enough that seems to be changed for it to be any different this year.

I’ve already tried every combination of Accessibility/brightness settings and Shortcuts on previous OLED iPhones.

At least my consolation is that the iPad Pro 11” has a lovely Liquid Retina display without PWM, which is quite possibly the nicest LCD that Apple has shipped. The M2 chip should also be able to run standout apps like Resident Evil: Village, although in retrospect maybe I should have gotten more storage—I am curious how developers/Apple will handle this since so many devices have limited storage already.

I still wish for a flicker-free Accessibility setting where there’s zero flicker at all, as I would love to be using these new iPhones and any flicker is absolutely detrimental to our health. But the definition of insanity is doing the same task over and over and expecting a different result, and that applies here: I can’t count how many times I’ve powered off my iPhone and thought that it would be okay to use next time it was powered on at I.e. 100% brightness using Reduce White Point, or purchased an iPhone thinking that it would be better and usable this generation. It’s probably not.

The problem is, for some if us, Apple’s lcd devices such as the iPad Pro cause eye strain or burning eyes as well… not sure what Apple is doing with these- is it the temporal dithering? Is it the “ripples” in the display output that I’ve heard about?

Other brand lcd devices are fine, as are older Apple devices that use intel chips (old 2015 MacBook Air, 2017 iMac as examples).

I’d love to only use my phone sparingly, and spend most of my browsing snd media consumption time at home in an iPad if I could.

 

[kargurin]

I just ordered one of these on Amazon. Appeals to my geekish curiosity. I'll post my findings after I wrap my head around it. 🤔🙂

This Opple thing is a pain to set up. No instructions. That said my Razr + is agreeable with published results I already posted. Going to visit a retail location tomorrow and get other phones.

 

[Populus]

I think my configuration for the upcoming years is going to be: iPhone SE 3 (A15), M2 11” iPad Pro, and finally, I’ll get an Apple Studio Display for a future M3 Mac mini. All LCD, escaping from OLED for at least the 6 or 7 years this set-up can last me.

 

[now i see it]

I’ll get an Apple Studio Display

While that display is LCD. I’d still be wary of it until it’s proven benign. My confidence in  displays has hit an all time low

 

[du57in]

I think my configuration for the upcoming years is going to be: iPhone SE 3 (A15), M2 11” iPad Pro, and finally, I’ll get an Apple Studio Display for a future M3 Mac mini. All LCD, escaping from OLED for at least the 6 or 7 years this set-up can last me.

This sounds like a solid set up.

I’m very similar except I am using an XR until we see if the original XR-based SE4 rumors fall through or not. The original rumors from all said early 2024 so I’m not giving up hope. Otherwise, biggest storage SE available will last at least 3 years.

 

[Artvandelay1212]

We are all waiting your tomorrow findings

Unfortunately you're now going to have to wait a few days as I couldn't buy it because of my carrier (Verizon). Something to do with the payment plan. I also have no luck activating these phones, now I can't even buy them, lol. Going to try again Monday or Tuesday. It didn't bother me in the few minutes I looked at the display model in the store.

 

[jimmy_uk]

While that display is LCD. I’d still be wary of it until it’s proven benign. My confidence in  displays has hit an all time low

I have two Apple Studio displays at work that bothered me the first 2 days but my eyes seem ok now. I did have to switch off font smoothing in terminal.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I think my configuration for the upcoming years is going to be: iPhone SE 3 (A15), M2 11” iPad Pro, and finally, I’ll get an Apple Studio Display for a future M3 Mac mini. All LCD, escaping from OLED for at least the 6 or 7 years this set-up can last me.

Sorry if I have already asked you this - did you use the M1 iPad Pro 11"? I get eye strain on the 2020 2nd Gen and M1 3rd Gen. I'm wondering if the M2 is “fixed”.

 

[Howyalikdemapls]

I told myself I wouldn’t pre-order again. I told myself I wouldn’t post here about it.
Sigh……

One evening on the 15PM and my eyes feel damaged today. When I opened the curtains this morning and the bright sun hit my eyes, I had strobing vision for several minutes, something I’ve never experienced in my life before. It was actually scary as it hurt and my vision looked like all those videos of the lines pulsing across the iPhone screen! WTF.

My eye muscles are heavily fatigued and I feel nauseous. F these phones. Sure, there is something different as I felt reasonable last night while using the phone, but today feels awful and has genuinely worried me - why would I do this to myself? I’m risking my health for this bull_hit technology!

View attachment 2277955

Ya this phone is just as bad for sure. My 11 was practically unusable because it was so slow though. I’d often miss photo moments because the camera took too long to load. I just really need to train myself to practically never use my phone.

 

[kargurin]

Keep eye on One Plus 12 yet to be released, for those open to android alternatives. Rumored to have high frequency dimming.

The OnePlus 12 could come with more RAM than most of us need on a phone

The OnePlus 12 could come with models with as much as 24GB of RAM, according to new leaks. It could also come with a PWM dimming display.

www.androidauthority.com

 

[Artvandelay1212]

Ya this phone is just as bad for sure. My 11 was practically unusable because it was so slow though. I’d often miss photo moments because the camera took too long to load. I just really need to train myself to practically never use my phone.

Did you try out the 15?

 

[now i see it]

My 11 was practically unusable because it was so slow though

Something was wrong. Wipe and reinstall the OS. iPhone 11 is incredibly fast still. Everything happens super quick (on mine)

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

@from reddit the_top_g
@melliflu

Can you confirm that the iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Plus displays each operate at 480 Hz PWM?

Then both would be "PWM safe" as long as the modulation depth does not exceed 7.68 Hz, right?

In any case: Thanks for your work!

Yes then I'll like to cross reference with @melliflu iphone 15 findings.

As based on my raw data's, it highly suggest it is using a dc like dimming

That's not really a test.....

Check out the Reddit guy, he is posting numbers.

I am aware these kind of "slow motion flicker test" has been circulating around. Unfortunate, these videos are pseudoscience at best.

At a mere 240 fps or 480 fps low slow motion, it gives extremely misleading and inaccurate results.

We human beings are well capable of detect light changes at 6600 hertz per second(and above). The question is on whether is one affected by these invisible flickers.

The above slow motion video only implies two things:

1) flickering hertz is below 480 hertz

2) the flicker has been "synced" to the cam, thus no flickering is observed.

If the same slow motion 240/ 480 fps test is tested on incandescent light bulbs, then incandescent light bulbs will no longer be recommended.

Throughout history, consumers have had much more success with incandescent light bulbs, than LED bulbs with 500 hertz and harsh flickering.

However based on this flawed test, LED bulbs with 500 hertz and with harsh flickering is suddenly flicker free, in comparison to incandescent light bulb that has flickering on camera.

Hence it is just a pseudoscience test.

To get a more accurate slow motion test, 10,000 fps slow mo is required. I'll be thrilled if someone can conduct such test.

Either that, or to use a 1/6400 shutter speed if you are less sensitive to flicker, 1/10,000 if you are in the median segment, or 1/24,000 if you tend to get migraine headaches from using screens.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

@from reddit the_top_g
@melliflu

Can you confirm that the iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Plus displays each operate at 480 Hz PWM?

Then both would be "PWM safe" as long as the modulation depth does not exceed 7.68 Hz, right?

In any case: Thanks for your work!

It's my pleasure!

I do genuinely hope the community can pick up conducting tests on their own. That's because sources like notebookcheck or rtings are not always updated to the latest research studies or screen dimming implementations.

As these sources to have a history of being reliable and credible, it becomes a problem when they are not updating their measuring tool according to recent screen developments.

Thus as consumers, "appeal to authority" tend to be widespread and in respond to that cognitive dissonance, come up with all kinds of speculation and theories to justify and defend their sources.

Furthermore, not every one in the world has the luxury of the return policy. Hence (many like me) ended up spending thousands of dollars just to see if it's right for them. And we still ended up not finding it and had to return back to using our age old phones.

 

[john g.]

Something was wrong. Wipe and reinstall the OS. iPhone 11 is incredibly fast still. Everything happens super quick (on mine)

Same. My 11 is still surprisingly fast. Howyalikdemapls is your storage almost full?

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Welcome to the party!

Thanks so much for joining us.

The current go-to phones for us have been iPhone SE (2022) and iPhone 11. It would be wonderful if you did an analysis of those phones so that we have a baseline (ideal state) to compare to the current and future OLED and MicroLED phones. No worries if that is not possible. It would just be a nice to have. Thank you!

It's nothing!

Sure, I can do that if it results in better insights for this community!

But that should happening probably a few weeks later.

I will also give my thoughts as to why Apple is so insistent in using PWM, and furthermore why iphone 15 with 480 hertz is not a true 480 hertz, while iphone 15 pro / pro max is.

The chart for determining if iphone 15 is the PWM safe range is not appliable as a result, btw

 

[kargurin]

I don't pretend to be an expert but I don't think that 480 hz would be a fixed frequency. But rather that is the frequency used at max brightness and if you cut the brightness in half the frequency is halved. Thats what im seeing in Opple. Which would seem to make sense as pwm is used to regulate brightness.

 

[MICHAELSD]

iPhone 15 Pro in hand, against my better judgement. I guess part of me wanted to try it to satisfy my curiosity, braving storm-like conditions and picking up one of the only Pro’s in stock.

I tried reasoning with the Apple Store employee, who assured me that he also uses display-related Accessibility settings, and quite astutely told me this was my iPhone and if I wanted to bring it back within a day or two it wouldn’t be a big deal. I almost wanted to cancel so somebody else could have it.

So far quite honestly I have no regrets at least trying it for the experience. The titanium build feels so nice and noticeably lighter. The display is definitely blurry and it has only been fifteen minutes but I don’t have a strong headache response, yet. This feels like every year where my first order of business after texting my friends is to come here and state that it feels better than last year, only for headaches to grow in intensity over time. It’s at least slightly reassuring not to have an immediate iPhone X throbbing behind my eyes.

For now I will be keeping auto-brightness on. Reduce White Point seems to hurt more than it helps now that I’ve tested a few settings in terms of being too bright and otherwise not doing much. I definitely preferred the Pro series to the standard iPhone in the store in terms of both comfort and vividness. I also like the iPhone 15 Pro size more than ever, which I sort of expected. The Max oddly felt too large in the store by comparison.

So far… okay. Not optimistic once I take my eyes off of this iPhone after posting this and it’s already not completely headache-free, but not too major… yet.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Not too bad so far. Still not ideal since it doesn’t feel as comfortable as an LCD by a long shot but no notable migraines yet. Huh. FWIW the slow-motion video I took at the store also looks different than what I’ve seen. I think this is more different than iPhone 14 Pro than what we’ve measured.

 

[Heman87]

Yes then I'll like to cross reference with @melliflu iphone 15 findings.

As based on my raw data's, it highly suggest it is using a dc like dimming

I am aware these kind of "slow motion flicker test" has been circulating around. Unfortunate, these videos are pseudoscience at best.

At a mere 240 fps or 480 fps low slow motion, it gives extremely misleading and inaccurate results.

We human beings are well capable of detect light changes at 6600 hertz per second(and above). The question is on whether is one affected by these invisible flickers.

The above slow motion video only implies two things:

1) flickering hertz is below 480 hertz

2) the flicker has been "synced" to the cam, thus no flickering is observed.

If the same slow motion 240/ 480 fps test is tested on incandescent light bulbs, then incandescent light bulbs will no longer be recommended.

Throughout history, consumers have had much more success with incandescent light bulbs, than LED bulbs with 500 hertz and harsh flickering.

However based on this flawed test, LED bulbs with 500 hertz and with harsh flickering is suddenly flicker free, in comparison to incandescent light bulb that has flickering on camera.

Hence it is just a pseudoscience test.

To get a more accurate slow motion test, 10,000 fps slow mo is required. I'll be thrilled if someone can conduct such test.

Either that, or to use a 1/6400 shutter speed if you are less sensitive to flicker, 1/10,000 if you are in the median segment, or 1/24,000 if you tend to get migraine headaches from using screens.

Thank you for explaining this. I'm going to order the 15 based on the test results I found here. I already orderd the 15p and I'm going to give them both a try.