Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[BigBen2493]

I'm just quickly dropping by to comment on the above.

It means that at its 2,367 cd/m2 there is already flickering going on. (temporal light modulation, of unknown modulation depth)

Thus when it reaches 880 cd/m2 brightness, which is our 100% brightness — we are only taking advatange of the 37% of the full actual brightness. So as with hybrid dimming, the more you lower the brightness, the worse will the flickering become.(reminder: hybrid dimming is not PWM, but partial PWM!) Modulation depth % increases.

Allow me to reiterate again ~ when it finally reaches our 800 cd/m2 100% brightness, we already have somewhat bad flickering going on. As 14~15 modulation depth % is ridiculously high even by sine-wave standards. It gets even far worse as one continue to lower the brightness.

What does this means in layman terms?

It means you are screwed if you are sensitive to it.

Apple has complete control over whether you get eyestrains or headaches. You don't get to be the one deciding here.

Nothing can be done to help remedy this.

The "pro" in the iPhone 15 pro models means you ought to spend less time on your smartphone and instead be more pro-active in your outdoor activities.

Go figure

"The "pro" in the iPhone 15 pro models means you ought to spend less time on your smartphone and instead be more pro-active in your outdoor activities."

I like that, that was clever

 

[esaelias187]

View attachment 2286389
Yes there is PWM flicker, but not using PWM dimming method(yet), as shown here

Don’t know apart from some dry eyes iPhone 13 is decent for my eyes even better than iPhone 11

 

[kargurin]

I'm just quickly dropping by to comment on the above.

It means that at its 2,367 cd/m2 there is already flickering going on. (temporal light modulation, of unknown modulation depth)

Thus when it reaches 880 cd/m2 brightness, which is our 100% brightness — we are only taking advatange of the 37% of the full actual brightness. So as with hybrid dimming, the more you lower the brightness, the worse will the flickering become.(reminder: hybrid dimming is not PWM, but partial PWM!) Modulation depth % increases.

Allow me to reiterate again ~ when it finally reaches our 800 cd/m2 100% brightness, we already have somewhat bad flickering going on. As 14~15 modulation depth % is ridiculously high even by sine-wave standards. It gets even far worse as one continue to lower the brightness.

What does this means in layman terms?

It means you are screwed if you are sensitive to it.

Apple has complete control over whether you get eyestrains or headaches. You don't get to be the one deciding here.

Nothing can be done to help remedy this.

The "pro" in the iPhone 15 pro models means you ought to spend less time on your smartphone and instead be more pro-active in your outdoor activities.

Go figure

So what is the rationale for Apple, Samsung, et. al. not doing more? Is it the color distortion associated with dimming? Motorola warns of screen noise and color distortion by turning on 'flicker prevention.' I have not noticed any of that. Is it technically difficult?

 

[PwmMen]

It's not right that they don't do anything.
It's just that too little is being done, or too slowly.
I couldn't use the iPhone 13/14Pro/Max for 5 minutes without any complaints.
I can use the iPhone 15 Pro Max normally without any complaints.
Something must have improved for me. I am not the only one.

 

[Abiyork]

It's not right that they don't do anything.
It's just that too little is being done, or too slowly.
I couldn't use the iPhone 13/14Pro/Max for 5 minutes without any complaints.
I can use the iPhone 15 Pro Max normally without any complaints.
Something must have improved for me. I am not the only one.

And the worrying thing is you're not home and dry once you find a phone/screen that doesnt cause pain, as one IOS update can ruin it (as IOS17 has for my Iphone 11)

 

[Abiyork]

So what is the rationale for Apple, Samsung, et. al. not doing more? Is it the color distortion associated with dimming? Motorola warns of screen noise and color distortion by turning on 'flicker prevention.' I have not noticed any of that. Is it technically difficult?

I wouldn't mind if an option to turn off PWM/Dimming meant that the display wasn't the amazing experience those lucky enough to use without pain get. I just want a quicker (5G) handset with the camera enhancements.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I'm tapping out.

As I see it, the situation has gotten slightly worse as Apple dabbles with hardware and software to get more nits of brightness + save battery life. If any of these changes have allowed some users to be okay with these phones this is just luck and not Apple actively seeking to help PWM/flicker-sensitive folk. I had one of my worst reactions to the 15PM which is now only second to my X experience.

The lucky few who have managed to move on likely have a milder sensitivity, as it would seem they could use the OLED iPhones before. It is a spectrum so keep on trucking if you want to know if any of these devices work for you.

I feel this thread has probably run its course as we go round and round the same info. Some of the original contributors have long bailed, never to return. And new visitors don't stay for long. The thread will descend into those desperate to get a new phone this cycle and are willing to put up with negative side effects which is a shame as your health should be more important.

Best of luck to those still holding out hope.

 

[morphism]

I'm tapping out.

As I see it, the situation has gotten slightly worse as Apple dabbles with hardware and software to get more nits of brightness + save battery life. If any of these changes have allowed some users to be okay with these phones this is just luck and not Apple actively seeking to help PWM/flicker-sensitive folk. I had one of my worst reactions to the 15PM which is now only second to my X experience.

The lucky few who have managed to move on likely have a milder sensitivity, as it would seem they could use the OLED iPhones before. It is a spectrum so keep on trucking if you want to know if any of these devices work for you.

I feel this thread has probably run its course as we go round and round the same info. Some of the original contributors have long bailed, never to return. And new visitors don't stay for long.

Best of luck to those still holding out hope.

I can't use OLED screens at all without getting a headache, so I will stick with my iPhone 11 on iOS 16 until it breaks. After that, I will probably find a cheap Android phone with an LCD screen and get by just fine. I don't care at all about having the latest gadget, it's just a tool that's unfortunately necessary in the modern world. I just want to not have the tool cause my head and eyes to hurt.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

So what is the rationale for Apple, Samsung, et. al. not doing more? Is it the color distortion associated with dimming? Motorola warns of screen noise and color distortion by turning on 'flicker prevention.' I have not noticed any of that. Is it technically difficult?

Excellent question.

This question throws back to the first few iterations of OLED panels with true dc dimming.

Why did the first few galaxy S series use True Dimming dc? Why didn't they just continue using true dc dimming instead of PWM?

The answer always fall down to 1 thing. This.

Screen burn in.

OLED panels cannot stay 100% ON. They must shut down and rest for at least 25% time duration. If manufacturers forcefully make OLED stay 100% of the time, they'll end like deep fried in no time.

Even LG's OLED TV flicker free is no stranger to this problem. They too have to make their individual LEDs rest once every 120 hertz.

see the 2 grey bandings there in the LG OLED TV? Along with the brightness dip on the graph. That's the OLED "resting time"

This then brings to the question. Why LCDs do not have to "rest" to prevent burn in, while OLED have to?

The answer is because of the way they are designed.

For LCDs, the backlight and the screen panel are separate components.

OLED panels however do not have a separate backlight. Each individual led is each own light. Hence, having the LEDs stay ON 100% of the time fries them in no time.

Over 13 years have passed and we are still stuck with this fundamental technical limitation.

On the bright side, some chinese companies have found workaround for this problem.

Instead of what Apple is currently doing their iphone pro model

ON, ON, ON, ON, OFF, ON, ON, ON, ON, OFF, ON, ON, ON, ON, OFF, ON, ON....

What companies like Oppo are experimenting is a workaround to this "rest" issue, as followed:

ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ
ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ
ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ
ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ....


As we can see, the "off" is now more subtle and has way more "on" compared to "off".

 

[dstow]

*OBLIGATORY IPHONE 15 PRO PWM RESULTS*

Okay, I've managed to get my hands on a 15 Pro, and initial results are in - I am experiencing mild PWM symptoms, not the traditional eye strain, headaches but a burning/tension/tightness sensation at the back of my head i.e tension headache with a twist

I have changed NO settings in terms of RWP - All stock - Auto Brightness - True Tone ON

The best way to describe the feeling would be imagine the liquidators from Chernobyl handling a piece graphite straight from the reactor core after the explosion with the back of your head being slowly cooked by intense radiation.

Coupled with the sense of imminent death, my eyes seem to struggle to focus on the display, it's almost dazzling as others have mentioned previously, akin to staring into an atomic blast.

Having said that, HDR content is gangster.

Other than that, fantastic phone, just potentially lethal👍

I'm going to continue to use it in the vein hope symptoms subside unless I'm microwaved to death first.

Watch this space!

 

[1369281]

Excellent question.

This question throws back to the first few iterations of OLED panels with true dc dimming.

Why did the first few galaxy S series use True Dimming dc? Why didn't they just continue using true dc dimming instead of PWM?

The answer always fall down to 1 thing. This.

Screen burn in.

OLED panels cannot stay 100% ON. They must shut down and rest for at least 25% time duration. If manufacturers forcefully make OLED stay 100% of the time, they'll end like deep fried in no time.

Even LG's OLED TV flicker free is no stranger to this problem. They too have to make their individual LEDs rest once every 120 hertz.

see the 2 grey bandings there in the LG OLED TV? Along with the brightness dip on the graph. That's the OLED "resting time"

View attachment 2286666

This then brings to the question. Why LCDs do not have to "rest" to prevent burn in, while OLED have to?

The answer is because of the way they are designed.

For LCDs, the backlight and the screen panel are separate components.

OLED panels however do not have a separate backlight. Each individual led is each own light. Hence, having the LEDs stay ON 100% of the time fries them in no time.

Over 13 years have passed and we are still stuck with this fundamental technical limitation.

On the bright side, some chinese companies have found workaround for this problem.

Instead of what Apple is currently doing their iphone pro model

ON, ON, ON, ON, OFF, ON, ON, ON, ON, OFF, ON, ON, ON, ON, OFF, ON, ON....

What companies like Oppo are experimenting is a workaround to this "rest" issue, as followed:

ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ
ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ
ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ
ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ,ON,ON, ᵒᶠᶠ....


As we can see, the "off" is now more subtle and has way more "on" compared to "off".

Do you expect we will see more of the same with microLED or is there hope?

 

[jm31828]

I can't use OLED screens at all without getting a headache, so I will stick with my iPhone 11 on iOS 16 until it breaks. After that, I will probably find a cheap Android phone with an LCD screen and get by just fine. I don't care at all about having the latest gadget, it's just a tool that's unfortunately necessary in the modern world. I just want to not have the tool cause my head and eyes to hurt.

The other discussion about the iPhone 11 was actually the Pro version which is OLED- is there concern about upgrading a regular LCD phone like the iPhone 11 to IOS 17?

 

[Abiyork]

The other discussion about the iPhone 11 was actually the Pro version which is OLED- is there concern about upgrading a regular LCD phone like the iPhone 11 to IOS 17?

Very much so, I updated two weeks ago and have only just twigged after reading reddit PWM forum about the IOS17 update increasing problems for the 11. The update of IOS17 is to blame. Desperately trying to find a way to downgrade.

Suck of this now. Thought I was safe on the Iphone 11, obviously not.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Will you attempt an Android phone or another iPhone from the 15 series?

This almost feels taboo to say on here, but I have a Motorola Razr+ that I’m keen to test and provide impressions of using. I figured that if I was going to test an Android smartphone I would get a cool one that folds and that offers arguably the best flicker-reduction settings.

I did receive this and start using it on Wednesday after using the iPhone 15 Pro in dark environments, which still caused persistent headaches. One of my issues with this test is bias, since now I get extremely mild headaches even using iPhone SE as my eyes/head recover. Why I do this year-after-year is beyond me, but I did somehow skip two generations of OLED iPhones.

I did return iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 15 Plus caused the migraine-feeling sensation instantly when I stared at one in an Apple Store. Some users may have luck, this 60Hz PWM doesn’t work for me and may be worse than the Pro iPhones.

What I can state so far about the Razr+ is that I’ve felt zero reason to come here and post about it yet, which is a positive first impression. Ideally I should have tried it on its own at least a week afterwards, but I am typing this on iPhone SE and giving myself a chance to recover.

If that doesn’t work either, as I don’t find any level of post-use symptoms acceptable, then I’ll replace the screen on this iPhone SE and keep it for as long as possible since I don’t think I’ll have much of a choice at that point.

 

[jm31828]

Very much so, I updated two weeks ago and have only just twigged after reading reddit PWM forum about the IOS17 update increasing problems for the 11. The update of IOS17 is to blame. Desperately trying to find a way to downgrade.

Suck of this now. Thought I was safe on the Iphone 11, obviously not.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood, thinking yours was a Pro.

So sorry to hear that! Very odd they would add PWM to an LCD phone that never had it before.

I wonder if users of the SE are experiencing this now as well?

 

[Expos of 1969]

Ah, sorry I misunderstood, thinking yours was a Pro.

So sorry to hear that! Very odd they would add PWM to an LCD phone that never had it before.

I wonder if users of the SE are experiencing this now as well?

Fortunately not on my SE3.

 

[jm31828]

Fortunately not on my SE3.

Glad to hear that!

 

[kargurin]

This almost feels taboo to say on here, but I have a Motorola Razr+ that I’m keen to test and provide impressions of using. I figured that if I was going to test an Android smartphone I would get a cool one that folds and that offers arguably the best flicker-reduction settings.

I did receive this and start using it on Wednesday after using the iPhone 15 Pro in dark environments, which still caused persistent headaches. One of my issues with this test is bias, since now I get extremely mild headaches even using iPhone SE as my eyes/head recover. Why I do this year-after-year is beyond me, but I did somehow skip two generations of OLED iPhones.

I did return iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 15 Plus caused the migraine-feeling sensation instantly when I stared at one in an Apple Store. Some users may have luck, this 60Hz PWM doesn’t work for me and may be worse than the Pro iPhones.

What I can state so far about the Razr+ is that I’ve felt zero reason to come here and post about it yet, which is a positive first impression. Ideally I have should have tried it on its own at least a week afterwards, but I am typing this on iPhone SE and giving myself a chance to recover.

If that doesn’t work either, as I don’t find any level of post-use symptoms acceptable, then I’ll replace the screen on this iPhone SE and keep it as long as possible since I don’t think I’ll have much of a choice at that point.

This is week 2 for me with the Razr plus. I hit the point of no return (literally you need to return it within two weeks for a refund less restocking) today and I'm keeping it. I don't have headaches. After just one day with the 14 Pro Max (a few hours of screen on time) I had headaches the next day. It does cause a bit of eye strain. I'm sure if I used it all the time it would be bad news. But my screen on time is less than 90 minutes a day (that's using the opened phone) and I can use it in short spurts with no issue. It does feel quite a bit like the new iPhones to me. I can just look at a phone and know immediately if it is problematic. And the 15s seems to be alot like the 14s. The cover screen is great because I can see notifications real quick without opening the phone. And you can use apps natively on the cover screen. It ain't a PWM solution but it cost me nothing and my old phone was out of security updates. I use my iPad more than my Razr Plus.

 

[LostAggie]

So far the 15 Plus is better than the 15 pro or 15 pro max. I am not a big fan of the size but if this works then I will deal.

 

[jm31828]

This is week 2 for me with the Razr plus. I hit the point of no return (literally you need to return it within two weeks for a refund less restocking) today and I'm keeping it. I don't have headaches. After just one day with the 14 Pro Max (a few hours of screen on time) I had headaches the next day. It does cause a bit of eye strain. I'm sure if I used it all the time it would be bad news. But my screen on time is less than 90 minutes a day (that's using the opened phone) and I can use it in short spurts with no issue. It does feel quite a bit like the new iPhones to me. I can just look at a phone and know immediately if it is problematic. And the 15s seems to be alot like the 14s. The cover screen is great because I can see notifications real quick without opening the phone. And you can use apps natively on the cover screen. It ain't a PWM solution but it cost me nothing and my old phone was out of security updates. I use my iPad more than my Razr Plus.

Great news, glad to hear it!
Is that cover screen even easier on the eyes than the main screen? (as in, is it LCD with no noticeable PWM?)

 

[MICHAELSD]

Great news, glad to hear it!
Is that cover screen even easier on the eyes than the main screen? (as in, is it LCD with no noticeable PWM?)

The cover display is a gorgeous pOLED that matches the quality and color calibration of the main pOLED display, which is impressive. It still uses some form of PWM, and it gets quite bright, but I would assume it matches the flicker reduction on the main display.

Even the Always On Display caused issues for me on iPhone 14/15 Pro, so this is still better by comparison. I need more time to give a more thorough review.

 

[MICHAELSD]

This is week 2 for me with the Razr plus. I hit the point of no return (literally you need to return it within two weeks for a refund less restocking) today and I'm keeping it. I don't have headaches. After just one day with the 14 Pro Max (a few hours of screen on time) I had headaches the next day. It does cause a bit of eye strain. I'm sure if I used it all the time it would be bad news. But my screen on time is less than 90 minutes a day (that's using the opened phone) and I can use it in short spurts with no issue. It does feel quite a bit like the new iPhones to me. I can just look at a phone and know immediately if it is problematic. And the 15s seems to be alot like the 14s. The cover screen is great because I can see notifications real quick without opening the phone. And you can use apps natively on the cover screen. It ain't a PWM solution but it cost me nothing and my old phone was out of security updates. I use my iPad more than my Razr Plus.

I bought it on Amazon and confirmed with the support that it’s a 30-day return window. Motorola does have slightly better promotions on their own site, but a 14-day return period—which is pretty short IMO considering many people may be trying it coming from a Samsung Galaxy or an iPhone and need a transitional period.

Glad to hear it works for you! I really need to rest and recover from the iPhone, since I even feel light lingering PWM headaches staring at this iPhone SE so it would be unfair to attribute that to the Razr+ just yet.

 

[DJTaurus]

Has anyone tested with color tint on ?

 

[MICHAELSD]

Has anyone tested with color tint on ?

The color tint I enabled by accident made it worse for me personally.

 

[1369281]

Ah, sorry I misunderstood, thinking yours was a Pro.

So sorry to hear that! Very odd they would add PWM to an LCD phone that never had it before.

I wonder if users of the SE are experiencing this now as well?

What? “Add PWM to an LCD…” ?

There is no PWM on iPhone 11. I just measured the flicker index of my iPhone 11 with iOS 17. It’s the same as it’s always been: no flicker.

iPhone 11 and all generations of iPhone SE are safe.