It only took five minutes for me to box it up, quite nicely I might add, and move on with my day.
This iPhone SE feels considerably more dated now. Sigh.
This iPhone SE feels considerably more dated now. Sigh.
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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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Do allow me to clarify on a few things with the above.
As based on the replies, it really does suggest that at least 1/3 of what I have attempt to bring up might not have been read. Hence there were even more speculation and confusion caused as a result.
Thus I will reiterate again. with a few technical terms used in this attempt.
One can only say a panels uses PWM as a dimming method provided that Duty Cycle (independent variable) has been directly manipulated . As directly manipulating the Duty Cycle results in the intensity of the Pulses (dependent variable).
Hence the name : Pulse. Width. Modulation. (aka method)
Any change in duty cycle that is not a result of directly manipulation is not called PWM as a dimming method anymore. The change in modulation is caused by hybrid PWM/DC dimming.
This is where instead of duty cycle been directly manipulated, DC Dimming is been used as a subsitute. This is called Hybrid dimming. This is what Apple is using with their recent iphones when brightness is between 100% to 25%. Thus modulation is also changed since DC dimming did not replace the modulation depth caused from the PWM's.
To reitierate again, because hybrid dimming is now been used, we cannot say it uses PWM as dimming method anymore.
However, saying that a panel has PWM is a completely different thing. It means PWM exist but duty cycle is not been manipulated. For instance, a panel can have a low flicker frequency of 200 hertz, duty cycle of 50% with a modulation of 100%. This is when between brightness level is between 99% to 0%. This is actually pretty brutal to any individual that is sensitive.
As duty cycle remains locked at duty cycle 50%, we say that it has PWM, and uses DC dimming to regulate the brightness level.
This is also a good example of Hybrid dimming. and is also called PWM 0, PWM free ~ since duty cycle remained unchanged even till brightness 0, and no change duty cycle percent has been directly manipulated.
As for the 100% brightness, it does not really matter whenever if 100% meant 100%. That is not the point I am attempting to bring. 100% could be 1500nits which is the value accessible to us, while 2000nits might be the actual max brightness value. That is not the point I am attempting to bring.
What I am attempting to bring is that when the screen is at its default brightness level — when PWM has not even began its transition, should flickering exist despite the lack of any direct duty cycle manipulation, it is called temporal light modulation. Not PWM. One can also say hybrid dimming causes direct changes in the modulation depth, since PWM is part of this mixed hybrid (PWM/ Dc dimming) dimming after all.
Over at the PWM sub reddit, we continue to use PWM in our analysis because it is what most familiar to us in the community. Furthermore, a number of us probably knew that hybrid dimming still contains a small percentage of PWM afterall.
As to the PWM free which results in a flat ampulitude, which I attempted to bring up in this post, last image carousel:
I am referring to PWM not showing up in an amplitude graph, and not to say of any hint that PWM is even being used, such as hybrid dimming.
For instance, in a post I have wrote some time ago.
My only go to iPhone 7 plus with a replaced in-cell LCD panel was using ultra high frequency hybrid dimming, with a flicker hertz of well over 200,000 hertz, and a modulation depth of 25% while brightness level below 25%. As "Ultra high frequency hybrid dimming" still contains a percentage of PWM afterall.
Had I used a Radex Lupin to do the measurement on my only go iPhone 7 plus with replaced in-cell LCD, I would have immediately discriminated it on the basis that it has such ridiculously high modulation depth.
That said, I have another iphone 8 plus which also has a replaced in-cell LCD but from another supplier. While that panel is also using ultra high frequency hybrid dimming , it has incredibly heavy ripples, which has given me mild tension headaches.
Next on the future of OLED in panels, I predict that the same implementation of using high frequency hybrid dimming is a fantastic workaround to address the limited of LED panels. However, I do not foresee LEDs using ultra high frequency hybrid dimming like my iphone 7 plus's replaced LCD panel, since that is essentially a carbon copy of a true dc dimming panel, which is flicker free. Perhaps through continued technology advancement, high frequency hybrid dimming can be used with low modulation, to which resulting in the same flicker-free experience.
Moving on to how Apple's respond to PWM in this regard, allow me give an analogy to further show why their attempted remedy is still ineffective, hence we are unable to appreciate the effort made by them.
Imagine this analogy. We complained of heavy weightload that Apple's iPhone has made us carry on our right dominant hand (assuming that we are all right handers, and whether are we really right or left handers is not the point of this discussion). This right dominat hand of us is PWM. So Apple responded by marginally removing of some the weightload, and moved the heavy weightload from the right dominat hand to our non dominat left hand.
This non dominat left hand would be Temporal Light Modulation. Now the stress is no longer on the right dominat hand(PWM), but the weaker non-dominat hand(TLM).
Additionally, as a result of this implementation, when brightness level hit below 20%, the heavy weightload returns back to the right dominat hand(PWM), with the weightload being even heavier than before (because of this implementation).
To which Apple might have responded with : "There! All fixed now. That ought to do the trick ~ The heavy weightload is no longer on your right hand, like you wanted."
To address this, Temporal Light Modulation's modulation depth % must be significantly lower, before any of the hybrid dimming methods is applied.
I hope the above clarifies.
This will be my last post here btw as my objective here is to act as a "bridge" between the end users(that is also me that was affected) and the engineers who have worked on this (based on my field which is studying and analysing them). As based on reading the past posts accumulated here over till now, it seems very likely that the end users is perceiving PWM as one thing, while the engineers are completely perceiving as PWM another. There seem to be a complete mismatch in how things are percieved.
To get manufacturers to understand our problems, we have to speak their language jargon and by their definition, and not based only on our definition within our community we have been well accustomed to.
However, considering that my earlier attempt was somewhat met with resistance, I will quietly take my leave from here forth.
I really do appreciate the meaningful discussion, and the attentive given to me thus far.
As based on the replies, it really does suggest that at least 1/3 of what I have attempt to bring up might not have been read. Hence there were even more speculation and confusion caused as a result.
Thus I will reiterate again. with a few technical terms used in this attempt.
One can only say a panels uses PWM as a dimming method provided that Duty Cycle (independent variable) has been directly manipulated . As directly manipulating the Duty Cycle results in the intensity of the Pulses (dependent variable).
Hence the name : Pulse. Width. Modulation. (aka method)
Any change in duty cycle that is not a result of directly manipulation is not called PWM as a dimming method anymore. The change in modulation is caused by hybrid PWM/DC dimming.
This is where instead of duty cycle been directly manipulated, DC Dimming is been used as a subsitute. This is called Hybrid dimming. This is what Apple is using with their recent iphones when brightness is between 100% to 25%. Thus modulation is also changed since DC dimming did not replace the modulation depth caused from the PWM's.
To reitierate again, because hybrid dimming is now been used, we cannot say it uses PWM as dimming method anymore.
However, saying that a panel has PWM is a completely different thing. It means PWM exist but duty cycle is not been manipulated. For instance, a panel can have a low flicker frequency of 200 hertz, duty cycle of 50% with a modulation of 100%. This is when between brightness level is between 99% to 0%. This is actually pretty brutal to any individual that is sensitive.
As duty cycle remains locked at duty cycle 50%, we say that it has PWM, and uses DC dimming to regulate the brightness level.
This is also a good example of Hybrid dimming. and is also called PWM 0, PWM free ~ since duty cycle remained unchanged even till brightness 0, and no change duty cycle percent has been directly manipulated.
As for the 100% brightness, it does not really matter whenever if 100% meant 100%. That is not the point I am attempting to bring. 100% could be 1500nits which is the value accessible to us, while 2000nits might be the actual max brightness value. That is not the point I am attempting to bring.
What I am attempting to bring is that when the screen is at its default brightness level — when PWM has not even began its transition, should flickering exist despite the lack of any direct duty cycle manipulation, it is called temporal light modulation. Not PWM. One can also say hybrid dimming causes direct changes in the modulation depth, since PWM is part of this mixed hybrid (PWM/ Dc dimming) dimming after all.
Over at the PWM sub reddit, we continue to use PWM in our analysis because it is what most familiar to us in the community. Furthermore, a number of us probably knew that hybrid dimming still contains a small percentage of PWM afterall.
As to the PWM free which results in a flat ampulitude, which I attempted to bring up in this post, last image carousel:
I am referring to PWM not showing up in an amplitude graph, and not to say of any hint that PWM is even being used, such as hybrid dimming.
For instance, in a post I have wrote some time ago.
My only go to iPhone 7 plus with a replaced in-cell LCD panel was using ultra high frequency hybrid dimming, with a flicker hertz of well over 200,000 hertz, and a modulation depth of 25% while brightness level below 25%. As "Ultra high frequency hybrid dimming" still contains a percentage of PWM afterall.
Had I used a Radex Lupin to do the measurement on my only go iPhone 7 plus with replaced in-cell LCD, I would have immediately discriminated it on the basis that it has such ridiculously high modulation depth.
That said, I have another iphone 8 plus which also has a replaced in-cell LCD but from another supplier. While that panel is also using ultra high frequency hybrid dimming , it has incredibly heavy ripples, which has given me mild tension headaches.
Next on the future of OLED in panels, I predict that the same implementation of using high frequency hybrid dimming is a fantastic workaround to address the limited of LED panels. However, I do not foresee LEDs using ultra high frequency hybrid dimming like my iphone 7 plus's replaced LCD panel, since that is essentially a carbon copy of a true dc dimming panel, which is flicker free. Perhaps through continued technology advancement, high frequency hybrid dimming can be used with low modulation, to which resulting in the same flicker-free experience.
Moving on to how Apple's respond to PWM in this regard, allow me give an analogy to further show why their attempted remedy is still ineffective, hence we are unable to appreciate the effort made by them.
Imagine this analogy. We complained of heavy weightload that Apple's iPhone has made us carry on our right dominant hand (assuming that we are all right handers, and whether are we really right or left handers is not the point of this discussion). This right dominat hand of us is PWM. So Apple responded by marginally removing of some the weightload, and moved the heavy weightload from the right dominat hand to our non dominat left hand.
This non dominat left hand would be Temporal Light Modulation. Now the stress is no longer on the right dominat hand(PWM), but the weaker non-dominat hand(TLM).
Additionally, as a result of this implementation, when brightness level hit below 20%, the heavy weightload returns back to the right dominat hand(PWM), with the weightload being even heavier than before (because of this implementation).
To which Apple might have responded with : "There! All fixed now. That ought to do the trick ~ The heavy weightload is no longer on your right hand, like you wanted."
To address this, Temporal Light Modulation's modulation depth % must be significantly lower, before any of the hybrid dimming methods is applied.
I hope the above clarifies.
This will be my last post here btw as my objective here is to act as a "bridge" between the end users(that is also me that was affected) and the engineers who have worked on this (based on my field which is studying and analysing them). As based on reading the past posts accumulated here over till now, it seems very likely that the end users is perceiving PWM as one thing, while the engineers are completely perceiving as PWM another. There seem to be a complete mismatch in how things are percieved.
To get manufacturers to understand our problems, we have to speak their language jargon and by their definition, and not based only on our definition within our community we have been well accustomed to.
However, considering that my earlier attempt was somewhat met with resistance, I will quietly take my leave from here forth.
I really do appreciate the meaningful discussion, and the attentive given to me thus far.
Last edited:
@from reddit the_top_g: Thank you for clarifying. I did indeed miss an importance piece of what you stated earlier, and I think there is a small language gap that complicated my understanding.
Your analysis is excellent, and as @MICHAELSD mentioned earlier, you have made major contributions to this community. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we would love for you to continue sharing your insights and progress. Whether you decide to stay or not, thank you for your efforts, and please keep up the great work!
Your analysis is excellent, and as @MICHAELSD mentioned earlier, you have made major contributions to this community. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we would love for you to continue sharing your insights and progress. Whether you decide to stay or not, thank you for your efforts, and please keep up the great work!
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If only he could test also 14 plus as it still wasn’t ideal for me.
Have I understood this correctly, the iPhone 15 Pro/Max has no PWM between 25-100% brightness?
But why do so many users still have problems with the two models? And why should the iPhone 15/Plus
be more tolerable if the iPhone 15 Pro/Max has no PWM between 25-100% brightness?
But why do so many users still have problems with the two models? And why should the iPhone 15/Plus
be more tolerable if the iPhone 15 Pro/Max has no PWM between 25-100% brightness?
Last edited:
Did you try to use 15pro without promotion enabled on? I get headaches from the promotion
Sad to report that I think my 15 Plus is giving me PWM, after months of trouble free use of my 14.
Not really sure what to do now, as I have sold the 14 to Mazuma Mobile.
I could return the 15+ and re-get a 14... or I could get the phone I always regretted not owning, the Product Red 13; but man I like the 15 Plus otherwise! :-(
Not really sure what to do now, as I have sold the 14 to Mazuma Mobile.
I could return the 15+ and re-get a 14... or I could get the phone I always regretted not owning, the Product Red 13; but man I like the 15 Plus otherwise! :-(
Now the review of the 15 Pro Max from Notebookcheck (german site) is online:
www.notebookcheck.com
They say that at 76% brightness the display begins to work with 480 Hz. They also say that the amplitude curve is very stable and few people should have problem with the display. When you look at the screenshots then the amplitude curves looks good.
Test Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max - Mehr Kamera-Power und Titan für Apples größtes Smartphone
Größerer Akku, bessere Kamera, Titanrahmen, geringeres Gewicht und endlich auch USB: das sind die markanten Neuerungen des iPhone 15 Pro Max im Test. Doch auch der Preis ist gefallen. Wir haben uns das Apple-Smartphone genau angeschaut.
www.notebookcheck.com
They say that at 76% brightness the display begins to work with 480 Hz. They also say that the amplitude curve is very stable and few people should have problem with the display. When you look at the screenshots then the amplitude curves looks good.
I'd been on the sidelines for 4 long years clutching my precious iPhone 11 and decided it was time to test the waters.
Quick backdrop, I purchased the iPhone X the first week it came out on a Friday, returned it back to the Apple Store the following Monday due to excruciating sinus pain, headaches, and dizziness, it was AWFUL. I soon thereafter learned more about OLED screens and how they're implemented in smartphones, PWM, and how bad it is for all of us who suffer from it.
Jumping back to present, I did some researching and came to the conclusion based on anecdotal evidence I read that the non-Pro version of the phone would be easier on the eyes. Have no idea if that can be scientifically proven, but again, I found enough anecdotal evidence to go that route.
I picked up an iPhone 15 Plus in Black. Elegant, beautiful design, easy on the eyes and in my hands, Dynamic Island, the speed and fluidity of jumping forward 3 generations of Apple SOC's, and 50% more RAM.
Well, it took all of a day to figure out that although it wasn't medieval torture like the iPhone X was for me, it was still persistent enough that I could never willingly subject myself to continued eye strain and headaches to use a phone.
In summary, it was a very short lived adventure, I lived, I loved, I lost, again.
Quick backdrop, I purchased the iPhone X the first week it came out on a Friday, returned it back to the Apple Store the following Monday due to excruciating sinus pain, headaches, and dizziness, it was AWFUL. I soon thereafter learned more about OLED screens and how they're implemented in smartphones, PWM, and how bad it is for all of us who suffer from it.
Jumping back to present, I did some researching and came to the conclusion based on anecdotal evidence I read that the non-Pro version of the phone would be easier on the eyes. Have no idea if that can be scientifically proven, but again, I found enough anecdotal evidence to go that route.
I picked up an iPhone 15 Plus in Black. Elegant, beautiful design, easy on the eyes and in my hands, Dynamic Island, the speed and fluidity of jumping forward 3 generations of Apple SOC's, and 50% more RAM.
Well, it took all of a day to figure out that although it wasn't medieval torture like the iPhone X was for me, it was still persistent enough that I could never willingly subject myself to continued eye strain and headaches to use a phone.
In summary, it was a very short lived adventure, I lived, I loved, I lost, again.
I got an iPhone 12 for my work device about 6 months ago. Even though I suffer terribly from PWM implementation in OLED screens, I wasn't too worried about it as I wasn't planning on using the phone all that much.
As it turns out, I never had a problem with my iPhone 12, and I couldn't believe it. It was what gave me confidence to take a stab at the iPhone 15, and if you see my post above, you can see how well that went.
I don't pretend to understand all the nuances behind this condition, all I know is it SUCKS big time!
The notebook check review is up for the 15 Pro Max.
www.notebookcheck.com
It says (via translation in Safari from German):
“The iPhone relies on two ambient light sensors and should reach up to 2,000 cd/m2 in sunlight. We have not been able to tease these out of the display so far, probably sensors have to be fully illuminated, as soon as we succeed, we submit the corresponding values. Nevertheless, the iPhone also offers a very high brightness and reaches 1,102 cd/m2 with the ambient light sensor activated in the center of the image, if you prefer to control the brightness manually, up to 880 cd/m2 are available. In HDR mode, the 15 Pro Max knows how to surprise, instead of the promised 1,600 cd/m2, it even reaches up to 2,367 cd/m2 in the test.”
Unclear what that means with respect to flicker and tolerance?
Test Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max - Mehr Kamera-Power und Titan für Apples größtes Smartphone
Größerer Akku, bessere Kamera, Titanrahmen, geringeres Gewicht und endlich auch USB: das sind die markanten Neuerungen des iPhone 15 Pro Max im Test. Doch auch der Preis ist gefallen. Wir haben uns das Apple-Smartphone genau angeschaut.
www.notebookcheck.com
It says (via translation in Safari from German):
“The iPhone relies on two ambient light sensors and should reach up to 2,000 cd/m2 in sunlight. We have not been able to tease these out of the display so far, probably sensors have to be fully illuminated, as soon as we succeed, we submit the corresponding values. Nevertheless, the iPhone also offers a very high brightness and reaches 1,102 cd/m2 with the ambient light sensor activated in the center of the image, if you prefer to control the brightness manually, up to 880 cd/m2 are available. In HDR mode, the 15 Pro Max knows how to surprise, instead of the promised 1,600 cd/m2, it even reaches up to 2,367 cd/m2 in the test.”
Unclear what that means with respect to flicker and tolerance?
I wish I could as well! Though I could not find any iphone 14 plus around to conduct a testing
I'm just quickly dropping by to comment on the above.—The notebook check review is up for the 15 Pro Max.
Test Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max - Mehr Kamera-Power und Titan für Apples größtes Smartphone
Größerer Akku, bessere Kamera, Titanrahmen, geringeres Gewicht und endlich auch USB: das sind die markanten Neuerungen des iPhone 15 Pro Max im Test. Doch auch der Preis ist gefallen. Wir haben uns das Apple-Smartphone genau angeschaut.
It says (via translation in Safari from German):
“The iPhone relies on two ambient light sensors and should reach up to 2,000 cd/m2 in sunlight. We have not been able to tease these out of the display so far, probably sensors have to be fully illuminated, as soon as we succeed, we submit the corresponding values. Nevertheless, the iPhone also offers a very high brightness and reaches 1,102 cd/m2 with the ambient light sensor activated in the center of the image, if you prefer to control the brightness manually, up to 880 cd/m2 are available. In HDR mode, the 15 Pro Max knows how to surprise, instead of the promised 1,600 cd/m2, it even reaches up to 2,367 cd/m2 in the test.”
Unclear what that means with respect to flicker and tolerance?
It means that at its 2,367 cd/m2 there is already flickering going on. (temporal light modulation, of unknown modulation depth)
Thus when it reaches 880 cd/m2 brightness, which is our 100% brightness — we are only taking advatange of the 37% of the full actual brightness. So as with hybrid dimming, the more you lower the brightness, the worse will the flickering become.(reminder: hybrid dimming is not PWM, but partial PWM!) Modulation depth % increases.
Allow me to reiterate again ~ when it finally reaches our 800 cd/m2 100% brightness, we already have somewhat bad flickering going on. As 14~15 modulation depth % is ridiculously high even by sine-wave standards. It gets even far worse as one continue to lower the brightness.
What does this means in layman terms?
It means you are screwed if you are sensitive to it.
Apple has complete control over whether you get eyestrains or headaches. You don't get to be the one deciding here.
Nothing can be done to help remedy this.
The "pro" in the iPhone 15 pro models means you ought to spend less time on your smartphone and instead be more pro-active in your outdoor activities.
Go figure
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So my headache story goes back a long way but my prescription drugs have done a good job in keeping it low pain for the last 12 months. However a couple of weeks ago it broke through the drugs.
Then I read this reddit post last night and its a lightbulb moment...... it started the day I updated to IOS17
I made a backup of my phone to my mac before updating to IOS17, can I reset my phone and restore from backup to get IOS16 back?
Then I read this reddit post last night and its a lightbulb moment...... it started the day I updated to IOS17
I made a backup of my phone to my mac before updating to IOS17, can I reset my phone and restore from backup to get IOS16 back?
Last edited: