Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[MICHAELSD]

What? “Add PWM to an LCD…” ?

There is no PWM on iPhone 11. I just measured the flicker index of my iPhone 11 with iOS 17. It’s the same as it’s always been: no flicker.

iPhone 11 and all generations of iPhone SE are safe.

I believe they were referring to iPhone 11 Pro, as there is some data on Reddit to suggest that the PWM was adjusted to reduce the duty cycle of the brightness controller on iOS 17.

In layman speak, some users are finding they’re suddenly sensitive whereas they weren’t before.

If accurate, this shows that Apple can make adjustments to the brightness controller via software updates.

 

[Abiyork]

What? “Add PWM to an LCD…” ?

There is no PWM on iPhone 11. I just measured the flicker index of my iPhone 11 with iOS 17. It’s the same as it’s always been: no flicker.

iPhone 11 and all generations of iPhone SE are safe.

I just tied up the dates to my head pain from two weeks ago and it ties in with IOS17 update exactly.

It may just be coincidence, but I’ve panicked and downgraded IOS.

See what happens going forward, I’m sure it’ll be me panicking over nothing but I’ve got to that stage nowadays 😂

 

[Abiyork]

I believe they were referring to iPhone 11 Pro, as there is some data on Reddit to suggest that the PWM was adjusted to reduce the duty cycle of the brightness controller on iOS 17.

In layman speak, some users are finding they’re suddenly sensitive whereas they weren’t before.

If accurate, this shows that Apple can make adjustments to the brightness controller via software updates.

Agreed.

I got head pain the day after I upgraded my standard 11 to IOS17 so got myself in a worry.

Some people can’t use the standard 11 for some reasons so I’m worried that something had changed in IOS17 for me to be one of those people.

 

[1369281]

I believe they were referring to iPhone 11 Pro, as there is some data on Reddit to suggest that the PWM was adjusted to reduce the duty cycle of the brightness controller on iOS 17.

In layman speak, some users are finding they’re suddenly sensitive whereas they weren’t before.

If accurate, this shows that Apple can make adjustments to the brightness controller via software updates.

There may have been two separate discussions on iPhone 11 and iPhone 11 Pro, but I believe Abiyork and jm31828 were referencing the non-Pro iPhone 11. I recall one of them had mentioned "at least the SE3 is still safe." I just wanted to make it clear that iPhone 11 and iPhone SE remain great options, even with iOS 17, for people who suffer from PWM/TPM.

 

[LostAggie]

Has anyone directly compared the iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 plus. The plus seems okay but would like a smaller size phone if possible. Thanks!

 

[Pixillated]

I'm tapping out.

As I see it, the situation has gotten slightly worse as Apple dabbles with hardware and software to get more nits of brightness + save battery life. If any of these changes have allowed some users to be okay with these phones this is just luck and not Apple actively seeking to help PWM/flicker-sensitive folk. I had one of my worst reactions to the 15PM which is now only second to my X experience.

The lucky few who have managed to move on likely have a milder sensitivity, as it would seem they could use the OLED iPhones before. It is a spectrum so keep on trucking if you want to know if any of these devices work for you.

I feel this thread has probably run its course as we go round and round the same info. Some of the original contributors have long bailed, never to return. And new visitors don't stay for long.

Best of luck to those still holding out hope.

I just want to say that this thread has helped me a lot. I loved my iPhone 8+. Upgraded. Could not use the new iPhone at all, dizziness, nausea. Had given away my old iPhone 8+ to a friend. Bought a new 8+. Loved it again. But, eventually I felt that I needed 5G.

So, from this thread I decided to purchase an iPhone SE 3. And a slightly older iPad Pro.

That combo works perfectly.

So, thank you all.

 

[pwm away]

Oh well. So I tried ordering the Honor 90. But delays … etc.

Then I was walking past a mobile store. Very awesome trade in bonuses.

So, I’ve just bought the 15 Plus 😂🤷‍♂️

 

[MICHAELSD]

PWM aside, the foldable form factor is absolutely wonderful.

Take my favorite iPhone of the past few years, iPhone 13 mini, make it even smaller while still being usable on its own, and open it up into a 6.9” Max-sized next-generation smartphone. It also helps that Motorola was incredibly inspired by the design. iPhone deservedly gets a 10/10 in build quality, whereas I would easily give the Razr+ an 8/10.

Optimistic about this smartphone to get me through the next few years till we switch to MicroLED. I only wish I started testing it when I didn't have any lingering headaches. Apple would be crazy not to release a polished foldable smartphone, unless they have some crazy better idea. It solves all of the issues with smartphones becoming too large with very few drawbacks, and certainly none that couldn’t be solved with smart engineering—being last to the category a foldable iPhone would need to have a brilliant new design.

 

[darchlt]

Hi all. A little off topic. Could you please tell me, I bought an iPhone 15 on September 25th. Should have been delivered on the 26th. But then a message appeared that the product had returned to Apple. I'm from another country and can't call Apple. We have services that deliver goods from USA. And I haven't gotten my money back yet. Could you please tell me if you know anything about this? Thank you in advance.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

Do you expect we will see more of the same with microLED or is there hope?

Personally, I think it is still too early to speculate on microLED.

For instance with Mini-LED panels, there was a lot of hype that it'll be the next generation of LCDs panels. It turns out that it still shares the same flaws of OLED panels. Though they function completely differently from OLED panel. Instead of shutting down simultaneously, the R,G,B LEDs take turns to rotate their shut down time. This however causes it to constantly flash up to 11 different color palettes at around 6400 hertz.

A fantastic example is the Macbook Pro Mini-Led. This was observed to be below 11500 hertz at around 6400 hertz, tthat is way below the recommended threshold for chronic migraine sufferers.

As we can see. there are no black bandings like the typical PWM.

This however is very likely to create a serious discomfort for those that are extremely sensitive. That includes me, that gave me symptoms never experienced before from any OLED panel.

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

For those that are still around and are still looking for their next OLED phone that is easier on the eye, here's how one can narrow down their search.

[edit]

A fantastic source is DXO display test's graph.

You'll need to look for the two conditions below and have them all three fulfilled, which results to a better eye relief experience.

1) The peak noise in the graph has to cap at -20dB at the highest.

2) The peaks must have at total of at least 9 (somewhat) identical looking peak waves.

3) Each and every of the "slim cones" waves must not exceed -50 db.

Reminder: all three condition must be fulfilled.



Below is a good example from DXOmark, on the Fairphone 5.

Below is Honor Magic Vs ~ a foldable phone which is much easier on the eye, as compared to other OLED panels of its class.

[Edit] Note: Honor Magic Vs has two very different screen panels. The front cover display panel is easier on the eye(above). However, the foldable panel is harsh on the eyes!

I believe the above will help those (with a history of using OLED panels without severe symptoms) narrow their search effectively.

Note that DXOmark's graph are not a good reference for etc 90 hz pseudo-sine wave though.

 

[DJTaurus]

Has anyone directly compared the iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 plus. The plus seems okay but would like a smaller size phone if possible. Thanks!

I returned iPhone 15. It was only a little bit better experience than 14. Tomorrow i am receiving 15 plus.

 

[kargurin]

For those that are still around and are still looking for their next OLED phone that is easier on the eye, here's how one can narrow down their search.

A fantastic source is DXO display test's graph.

You'll need to look for the two conditions below and have them both fulfilled, which results to a better eye relief experience.

1) The peak noise in the graph has to cap at -20dB at the highest.

2) The peaks must have at total of at least 9 (somewhat) identical looking peak waves.

Reminder: Both condition must be fulfilled.



Below is a good example from DXOmark, on the Fairphone 5.
View attachment 2287299




Below is Honor Magic Vs ~ a foldable phone which is much easier on the eye, as compared to other OLED panels of its class.

View attachment 2287303

I believe the above will help those (with a history of using OLED panels without severe symptoms) narrow their search effectively.

Note that DXOmark's graph are not a good reference for etc 90 hz pseudo-sine wave though.

Great observations and information you are providing the forum. Very much appreciated. One thing I didn't think of till you brought it up was the OLED burn in issue. About five years ago I needed to switch out my big screen and thought I was going to go with an LG OLED. At the last moment I changed my mind and got a Sony LCD.....just because of the burn in risk inherent in these TVs. I would imagine since then there have been fixes to this problem on the TVs. There are problems with burn in radar detector screens and other uses for OLED displays. I don't hear of iPhone screen burn in. I think we need to focus on mitigation these days. Buy the best panels for the eyes knowing that all will create problems and use them sparingly.

 

[Abiyork]

Downgrade back to IOS16 on my standard Iphone 11 and the pain has eased.

Apple repair have kindly offered to downgrade my watch IOS to enable me to pair again with no charge.

Appreciate no PWM but something has changed with temporal dithering etc.

 

[now i see it]

iOS “upgrades” are potential boobie traps.

 

[Mr.Simple]

For those that are still around and are still looking for their next OLED phone that is easier on the eye, here's how one can narrow down their search.

A fantastic source is DXO display test's graph.

So you would say that the chances are better with the Fairphone 5 than iPhone 15 Plus that it could be usable?

 

[from reddit the_top_g]

So you would say that the chances are better with the Fairphone 5 than iPhone 15 Plus that it could be usable?

Yes, absolutely.

While DXOmark has yet to publish the graph for iPhone 15 plus (or even last year's iPhone 14 plus), we will use iphone 12/ 13 as reference. For their dimming methods are quite similiar. (Though iphone 15 plus' has slightly higher modulation %. )

What we really have to examine is whether does each of the "slim cone" wave exceed -50db.

If we examine iphone 12/13's, we see that the first 4 cones did not exceed. Hence it should not cause problems for those that are less sensitive to flicker.

However, with the 5th cone onwards we see that the "slim cones" gradually exceed the -50db threshold.

This is where it becomes problematic.

With the Fairphone 5 (earlier), we see that the slim cones are sitting nicely below -50db.



Besides, a PWM panel is easier to mitigate the effects of PWM flicker compared to lower frequency hybrid dimming(all of Apple's recent iphones)

That is because with PWM panels we can manually avoid PWM triggers by setting brightness above the PWM brightness trigger threshold. Then, we can use screen overlays, Android's Extra Dim etc to reduce brightness ~ while not triggering the PWM.

However, with lower frequency hybrid dimming (as with what Samsung and Apple have implemented), PWM has now been merged and bonded permanently with the device's DC dimming mode. Your hands are literally tied behind your backs on this one. I can say that even Motorola's OLED phones are also using this implementation. Though they do have better optimisation compared to the other two.

Again, you'll have trouble creating a workaround with hybrid dimming as compared to PWM panels.

Additionally, Fairphone 5 runs at a higher 1440 hertz. Assuming that modulation depth %, duty cycle %, and waveform type are similar and constant, a higher frequency will alway be superior to a lower frequency.

While iPhone 15 plus may indeed have the advantage over Fairphone 5 while at 100% brightness, it loses out in practicality since no one is going to use at 100% brightness. Besides, the Reduce White Point hack is no longer as effective because Apple has changed the dimming implementation to have greater control over it.

With the above three factors in mind, Fairphone 5 is better than iphone 15 plus.

 

[StardustRedding]

There’s a video where Kylie Jenner talks about her vision becoming not clear and how she has to wear glasses. Now in the video she claims it was due to her pregnancy but she uses an oled iPhone. I just wonder if she has headaches and eye strains from it and she doesn’t know it’s affecting her vision.

 

[dimitricook]

If she would discover it's from her phone and she posts about this i bet for everything i have that Apple will fix the whole PWM ******** within 2 weeks.

 

[Abiyork]

There’s a video where Kylie Jenner talks about her vision becoming not clear and how she has to wear glasses. Now in the video she claims it was due to her pregnancy but she uses an oled iPhone. I just wonder if she has headaches and eye strains from it and she doesn’t know it’s affecting her vision.

I do wonder if in the coming years this is the next;

"Have you been mis-sold PPI, get in touch for a no win no fee......."
"Have you been in an accident that wasn't your fault, get in touch......."
"Have you lost money to a timeshare purchase, get in touch......"


"Has your eyesight deteriorated causing pain and nausea? This could be from overuse of screens on mobile phones, get in touch......"

 

[esaelias187]

Yes, absolutely.

While DXOmark has yet to publish the graph for iPhone 15 plus (or even last year's iPhone 14 plus), we will use iphone 12/ 13 as reference. For their dimming methods are quite similiar. (Though iphone 15 plus' has slightly higher modulation %. )

What we really have to examine is whether does each of the "slim cone" wave exceed -50db.

If we examine iphone 12/13's, we see that the first 4 cones did not exceed. Hence it should not cause problems for those that are less sensitive to flicker.


View attachment 2288061

However, with the 5th cone onwards we see that the "slim cones" gradually exceed the -50db threshold.

This is where it becomes problematic.

With the Fairphone 5 (earlier), we see that the slim cones are sitting nicely below -50db.



Besides, a PWM panel is easier to mitigate the effects of PWM flicker compared to lower frequency hybrid dimming(all of Apple's recent iphones)

That is because with PWM panels we can manually avoid PWM triggers by setting brightness above the PWM brightness trigger threshold. Then, we can use screen overlays, Android's Extra Dim etc to reduce brightness ~ while not triggering the PWM.

However, with lower frequency hybrid dimming (as with what Samsung and Apple have implemented), PWM has now been merged and bonded permanently with the device's DC dimming mode. Your hands are literally tied behind your backs on this one. I can say that even Motorola's OLED phones are also using this implementation. Though they do have better optimisation compared to the other two.

Again, you'll have trouble creating a workaround with hybrid dimming as compared to PWM panels.

Additionally, Fairphone 5 runs at a higher 1440 hertz. Assuming that modulation depth %, duty cycle %, and waveform type are similar and constant, a higher frequency will alway be superior to a lower frequency.

While iPhone 15 plus may indeed have the advantage over Fairphone 5 while at 100% brightness, it loses out in practicality since no one is going to use at 100% brightness. Besides, the Reduce White Point hack is no longer as effective because Apple has changed the dimming implementation to have greater control over it.

With the above three factors in mind, Fairphone 5 is better than iphone 15 plus.

This is why maybe the iPhone 13 is abit easier on the eyes and the iPhone 14 wasnt

 

[DJTaurus]

My journey with 15 plus just started.

 

[pwm away]

My journey with 15 plus just started.

I’ve just turned mine on! It asked for an update during initial setup. Waiting …

 

[pwm away]

Here are some pictures taken at 1/6800 at 100%, 75%, 50%, and 25% (roughly).

 

[pwm away]

Measurements: Auto brightness off

100%: 5%
75%: 8.5%
50%: 11%
25%: 12%