both regulars and prosCan you be more specific which 12 and 13 you tested ? And which one was better ?
I'm ( super sensitive ) so even Oled laptops and TVs bother me
both regulars and prosCan you be more specific which 12 and 13 you tested ? And which one was better ?
Just a guess but it might be due to Apple using different panel manufacturers in their phones. I had one iPhone 13 that caused instant blurred vision and another that felt a lot more mild.Can someone explain this Notebookcheck list of frequencies? For example…
iPhone 14: 60 hz
iPhone 13: 610 hz??
Why such a huge difference? Does it mean iPhone 13 didn’t cause PWM issues?
QD Oled TV’s ?both regulars and pros
I'm ( super sensitive ) so even Oled laptops and TVs bother me
I'm back and forth on mine. It doesn't give me headaches or anything but I think it bothers my eyes a bit. I'd say it's worth trying out if you're sensitive. I might be more sensitive than others. Going to give it the full 2 weeks to make my decision. I don't like the idea of keeping a phone that strains my eyes even slightly, but some might be ok with it, especially if they don't use the device as much.Anyone having success with 15 plus ?
iPhone 12 Pro at least for me it’s the best experience i had since X. Not 100% pain free but as soon as i stop working on it symptoms gradually go away.
TLM base form level (out of 100) | PWM (multiplier) | TLM level after PWM is applied (out of 100) | ||
12 | X5 | 60 |
TLM base form level (out of 100) | PWM (multiplier) | TLM level after PWM is applied (out of 100) | ||
40 (base form now significantly increased) | x1.05 (PWM free now) | 42 |
I disagree with this, unless I am missing something.iPhone 15 pro max -
100% brightness. Does not have PWM since it is at its max possible brightness. There is no other banding size to compare against. We can therefore conclude that at 100% brightness, it is PWM free.
Thank you for this. I’ll screen shot it and re read it until I understand it. At least, it would seem that Apple IS trying to help with this.Right, a long post incoming.
The short answer to Apple's stand in regards to PWM and their response to this is as followed:
They have already responded by not using PWM dimming between brightness 100% to 25%, and the following iphone releases since then
(I assume starting with the iphone 13 perhaps).
Also, it may perhaps seems that efforts made by Apple Engineers were not appreciated by the small online community, and continued to attribute problems to Apple for using PWM dimming methods. I will elaborate more on this later.
But before we proceed to that, we have to understand what is Pulse Width Modulation, and under what circumstance can one call it PWM.
According to engineers, Pulse Width Modulation mainly manipulates the width duration of screen shut down time. In other words, if there are no noticable change in the width duration of the screen "down" time, it cannot be called a "PWM". And that is what the "Width" in Pulse Width Modulation stands for.
Yes it does still sound confusing thus I am going to use iPhone 15 pro max to attempt to illustrate why the recent iphones are already PWM-free (when between brightness 100% to 25%). Following that I will also explain why PWM is no longer the issue like before, and what is now causing the visual, cognitive, or physiological reactions.
We will be focusing on the width size of the banding artifact below. If there are changes in the width size of the banding artifact, it would suggest there is PWM.
I'll be taking the readings from my previous post.
iPhone 15 pro max -
100% brightness. Does not have PWM since it is at its max possible brightness. There is no other banding size to compare against. We can therefore conclude that at 100% brightness, it is PWM free.
75% brightness. We do not see the width size of each banding artifact increasing in size. While there is indeed subtle increase in size with the banding, that is just the transition to PWM dimming mode. As no obvious change in the width size of the banding artifact is observed, we can say at brightness 75%, it is still PWM free.
50% brightness. Here we do see that the some of the banding are increasing in width. However, again as there are no obvious increase in size, we have to say it is PWM-free.
25% brightness - Even at this 25% brightness, we still do not see obvious change in banding width size. Therefore iphone 15 pro max is still PWM free while at 25% brightness.
How does a PWM banding look like then?
When iphone 15 pro max's brightness hits 20%, we start to see obvious change in the width of the banding artifact. This is where dimming has fully transitioned into PWM mode.
As we continue to slide the brightness down, we see the banding width size further increase. This is attributed to PWM, unlike what we saw earlier while at the higher brightness.
Lastly, while below brightness 7%, PWM complete it full course.
That brings us to the next question. If indeed Apple is no longer using PWM between brightness 25% to 100%, why are a number of users still complaining symptoms of PWM?
The reason is because of this thing called "Temporal Light Modulation".
Without getting too technical, just think of Temporal Light Modulation as the screen's "base form" flicker intensity, while PWM as the intensity multiplier.
To illustrate this, I will use a scale of 1 - 100 as the level of flicker. Below numbers are just for illustration purposes and do not represent any actual phone.
Let's assume we can tolerate flicker intensity of 10 out of 100. TLM, the base form flicker, starts at 12. PWM, the multiplier has a value of x5 (while it is at its worst).
TLM base form level (out of 100) PWM (multiplier) TLM level after PWM is applied (out of 100) 12 X5 60
As we can see from the above, the final output from this is 60. This greatly exceeds our tolerance for flicker.
Thus, we are right to attribute the problem to PWM.
The Apple engineers then revised the dimming implementation, removing PWM between 25% brightness to 100%, since PWM is the culprit here.
However, what actually happened in reality is the following.
TLM base form level (out of 100) PWM
(multiplier)TLM level after PWM is applied (out of 100) 40 (base form now significantly increased) x1.05 (PWM free now) 42
Thus even with the TLM level without PWM, it is still far from our tolerance value of 10.
As we can see from the above, PWM is indeed not the issue here. As the TLM base form flicker itself is 40.
Moving forward, I do propose that we stop using PWM as a lingo to bring up about the flicker. Rather, Temporal Light Modulation.
If we continue to bring up about removal of PWM, we are implying specifying to remove PWM, but not to remove flickering that affects us. (which was what manufacturers have heard and responded with)
Furthermore, the lingo with the various mixed PWM dimming methods seems to be quite in mess.
Semi or quasi PWM is not called Semi or quasi PWM. Rather, it is called DC-like dimming, hybrid dimming, pseudo dc dimming(which is what Apple is using here).
1/8 of PWM is called "Flicker-free". This naming for instance has been marketed by LG for their OLED TVs.
Hence only true PWM is referred to as PWM.
However, semi-dc dimming, DC-like dimming, hybrid dimming, pseudo dc dimming are still called DC dimming. Hence the term "True DC dimming" to distinguish from these Mixed PWM/ DC dimming methods.
There are three benefits to my propose use of temporal light modulation, as followed:
- We can save ourselves the trouble of remembering all these lingo as they keep coming out once every few months. Temporal light modulation refers to the selective strobe light that affects those that are sensitive, regardless of the new lingo or dimming method used.
- It helps others to narrow down to academic studies since that is the correct term used for those sensitive individuals affected by flickers in room lighting.
- We can avoid attributing the problem only to PWM, since as I have described above, PWM is no longer the issue anymore (In fact, all other manufacturers like Samsung are no longer using PWM as pervasively. They are using mixed PWM methods)
I think Apple has restricted it so that 100% brightness in the UI may actually only be 80% of the backlight's full capability,
When an account is deleted or suspended, the user can no longer use it, but every comment they’ve made in the past on all the different threads — remains forever. They are not deleted.(Yes I’m here for now my delete request is in pending review).
Yeah, and if the Radex Lupin meter reading correlates with pain felt, then that’s a great tool for someone.This is why I like measuring with the Radex Lupin, and it’s flicker % value.
I wish you all the best. 😺Guys I asked to have my account deleted. So I’m not sure you all will see this. But thanks for everything. I hope you all find what works out for you.
Brilliant analysis.That brings us to the next question. If indeed Apple is no longer using PWM between brightness 25% to 100%, why are a number of users still complaining symptoms of PWM?
It looks like HDR does still use some form of flickering, but the modulation is probably lower. Even at max 2000 nits brightness the display typically is measured to still have some sort of flickering.@from reddit the_top_g
IIRC the display boosts to max brightness when watching HDR video. It would be interesting to see if the lines went away entirely in that case. Also, if between 100% (manual brightness) and 25% the size of the banding doesn't change, then what is it doing to modulate brightness? It must be changing the frequency, right? The whole point of PWM or whatever you call it (flicker based brightness modulation) is to interrupt the light source on a regular basis to decrease the amount of light that is emitted on average thus getting your brain to think the screen is dimmer. Sort of like using blinds on a window? Or am I not understanding this? Thanks for all of your research.
Fascinating stuff- I won't begin to understand all of it, but thank you so much for sharing!Right, a long post incoming.
The short answer to Apple's stand in regards to PWM and their response to this is as followed:
They have already responded by not using PWM dimming between brightness 100% to 25%, and the following iphone releases since then
(I assume starting with the iphone 13 perhaps).
Also, it may perhaps seems that efforts made by Apple Engineers were not appreciated by the small online community, and continued to attribute problems to Apple for using PWM dimming methods. I will elaborate more on this later.
But before we proceed to that, we have to understand what is Pulse Width Modulation, and under what circumstance can one call it PWM.
According to engineers, Pulse Width Modulation mainly manipulates the width duration of screen shut down time. In other words, if there are no noticable change in the width duration of the screen "down" time, it cannot be called a "PWM". And that is what the "Width" in Pulse Width Modulation stands for.
Yes it does still sound confusing thus I am going to use iPhone 15 pro max to attempt to illustrate why the recent iphones are already PWM-free (when between brightness 100% to 25%). Following that I will also explain why PWM is no longer the issue like before, and what is now causing the visual, cognitive, or physiological reactions.
We will be focusing on the width size of the banding artifact below. If there are changes in the width size of the banding artifact, it would suggest there is PWM.
I'll be taking the readings from my previous post.
iPhone 15 pro max -
100% brightness. Does not have PWM since it is at its max possible brightness. There is no other banding size to compare against. We can therefore conclude that at 100% brightness, it is PWM free.
75% brightness. We do not see the width size of each banding artifact increasing in size. While there is indeed subtle increase in size with the banding, that is just the transition to PWM dimming mode. As no obvious change in the width size of the banding artifact is observed, we can say at brightness 75%, it is still PWM free.
50% brightness. Here we do see that the some of the banding are increasing in width. However, again as there are no obvious increase in size, we have to say it is PWM-free.
25% brightness - Even at this 25% brightness, we still do not see obvious change in banding width size. Therefore iphone 15 pro max is still PWM free while at 25% brightness.
How does a PWM banding look like then?
When iphone 15 pro max's brightness hits 20%, we start to see obvious change in the width of the banding artifact. This is where dimming has fully transitioned into PWM mode.
As we continue to slide the brightness down, we see the banding width size further increase. This is attributed to PWM, unlike what we saw earlier while at the higher brightness.
Lastly, while below brightness 7%, PWM complete it full course.
That brings us to the next question. If indeed Apple is no longer using PWM between brightness 25% to 100%, why are a number of users still complaining symptoms of PWM?
The reason is because of this thing called "Temporal Light Modulation".
Without getting too technical, just think of Temporal Light Modulation as the screen's "base form" flicker intensity, while PWM as the intensity multiplier.
To illustrate this, I will use a scale of 1 - 100 as the level of flicker. Below numbers are just for illustration purposes and do not represent any actual phone.
Let's assume we can tolerate flicker intensity of 10 out of 100. TLM, the base form flicker, starts at 12. PWM, the multiplier has a value of x5 (while it is at its worst).
TLM base form level (out of 100) PWM (multiplier) TLM level after PWM is applied (out of 100) 12 X5 60
As we can see from the above, the final output from this is 60. This greatly exceeds our tolerance for flicker.
Thus, we are right to attribute the problem to PWM.
The Apple engineers then revised the dimming implementation, removing PWM between 25% brightness to 100%, since PWM is the culprit here.
However, what actually happened in reality is the following.
TLM base form level (out of 100) PWM
(multiplier)TLM level after PWM is applied (out of 100) 40 (base form now significantly increased) x1.05 (PWM free now) 42
Thus even with the TLM level without PWM, it is still far from our tolerance value of 10.
As we can see from the above, PWM is indeed not the issue here. As the TLM base form flicker itself is 40.
Moving forward, I do propose that we stop using PWM as a lingo to bring up about the flicker. Rather, Temporal Light Modulation.
If we continue to bring up about removal of PWM, we are implying specifying to remove PWM, but not to remove flickering that affects us. (which was what manufacturers have heard and responded with)
Furthermore, the lingo with the various mixed PWM dimming methods seems to be quite in mess.
Semi or quasi PWM is not called Semi or quasi PWM. Rather, it is called DC-like dimming, hybrid dimming, pseudo dc dimming(which is what Apple is using here).
1/8 of PWM is called "Flicker-free". This naming for instance has been marketed by LG for their OLED TVs.
Hence only true PWM is referred to as PWM.
However, semi-dc dimming, DC-like dimming, hybrid dimming, pseudo dc dimming are still called DC dimming. Hence the term "True DC dimming" to distinguish from these Mixed PWM/ DC dimming methods.
There are three benefits to my propose use of temporal light modulation, as followed:
- We can save ourselves the trouble of remembering all these lingo as they keep coming out once every few months. Temporal light modulation refers to the selective strobe light that affects those that are sensitive, regardless of the new lingo or dimming method used.
- It helps others to narrow down to academic studies since that is the correct term used for those sensitive individuals affected by flickers in room lighting.
- We can avoid attributing the problem only to PWM, since as I have described above, PWM is no longer the issue anymore (In fact, all other manufacturers like Samsung are no longer using PWM as pervasively. They are using mixed PWM methods)