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2mw2

macrumors member
Dec 2, 2011
42
60
I am seriously thinking to give it a go.


Don't do it. I tried twice with the 13 mini. Auto brightness will not work and whilst you eliminate pwm, you will get quality problems with the screens - poor colour reproduction, battery consumption and ghost touch registrations near the edges of the display. The latter is quite annoying. There are quite few incell screen brands out there. If you find a good one let everyone know. FYI I ordered mine from Aliexpress
 

from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
73
267
That is interesting about the display for the OnePlus 12. But the description of this single puls dimming mode looks like on Honor 90 and nothing new. Hopefully it will reduce modulation to a good level.
Yes, indeed. To be more specific, it is loosely based on the initial release of the Honor 90 (hybrid dimming), instead of the revised full dc-like dimming update.

@pwm away

I did more finding on this Single pulse dimming. As single pulse dimming does not appear to make any sense based on the machine language translation. I then traced it back to the original 单脉冲调光模式 name in mandarin.

As it is, the mandarin [单] initial character has multiple meaning. It can mean the following:

- Single (as in single-bed, single bedroom)
- Stand alone (as in by itself, independent of others)

(I do have some additional background knowledge in linguistic)


Thus in this context, it is likely that the character [单] is referring to being "stand alone", rather than being single. A "single" pulse dimming does not make any sense either. Stand-alone pulse dimming would be a more appropriate translation.


So I did even more findings on this dimming technique. Stand-alone pulse dimming is basically PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) dimming but without the "Width". Hence it became (stand-alone) Pulse Modulation dimming.

What this means in the real world is that the Duty cycle(of PWM) is being locked at a fixed flicker time duration ratio from 100% brightness to 0% brightness. However, modulation% will continue to increase when brightness decreases.

During lower brightness, the screen will then introduce additional hertz that amounts to a total of etc 1920 hertz. Now, this is not to say that the pulses are consistent at 1920 hertz. Rather, we continue to see the 120 hertz from the previous bigger waves of the DC-like dimming, but now with the additional 1800 hertz smaller waves introduced ~ to simulate a 1920 flicker hertz display.

So if you read betwen the lines of what I am suggesting above, you will probably understand what I am trying to imply here. :)

This feature is already available in the China release Oneplus Ace2 Pro btw.

To put in technical terms, it is not using Pulse Width modulation (PWM) but is using a modified version of Pulse Amplitude Modulation (PAM).

Note that the 2nd character in Pulse [_____] Modulation denotes the independent variable. In other words, what is the component that was directly adjusted.

If "Width" is the independent variable, it will be called "Pulse Width Modulation". (PWM). This is only the change in duty cycle, while the modulation depth is constant.

If "Amplitude" is the directly adjusted component, then it will be called "Pulse Amplitude Modulation" (PAM). This is only the change in modulation depth %, while duty cycle is constant.

Likewise, if the flicker frequency is the one being directly adjusted, it will be called "Pulse Frequency Modulation". (PFM)

Classic PWM changes only the duty cycle without touching the modulation depth. Thus classic PWM always have 99.9% modulation depth %. However, with technological advancements in screens panels, PAM has long been merged into PWM. (From what have I understood)

Modern PWM has resulted in higher duty cycle with lower modulation depth % on the highest brightness settings. The drawback is that we still do get the worst of PWM, aka the worst form of flicker ever in the history of mankind ~ as what I have learned during my discussion exchange with the researchers.

If duty cycle % is locked, it is no longer using classic PWM. Thus it has become PWM 0, PWM free. But the pulsing flickers from the high modulation in PAM remains.

I was actually quite hesitant in introducing these dimming method technique name to the community this early since not many have had a good grasp of what exactly is the PWM dimming technique.

Also, I hesitated because I considered my position of being further defamed and slandered with the daily allegations of "fake PWM education" and casting strong doubts. I can understand for those that might have struggled with earlier concepts, they may already have difficulty keeping up with the pace. Hence this is one of their defense coping mechanism to react with what they are already familiar with and used to in real life.

However, considering again what's beneficial for the community, I brought this up, nevertheless. The reason being that screen dimming method continue to change and evolve, faster than our english community can comprehend.

As a comparison to the Chinese online community, all these concepts were already familiarized and widely discussed.
 
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Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
Shows that the Max has a better display regarding PWM.
With the Pro, the Hz is lower in the upper area, and no flat amplitudes are mentioned.
At Max the flat amplutudes are mentioned.
With regard to the iPhone 15 Pro Max Display, it confirms my experiences.
It is a miracle that I can use the iPhone 15 Pro Max in the standard settings and with 120Hz without any problems.:cool:
This is my second day with the pro. I watched 2 times YouTube clips of 20 mins. Yesterday I felt very dizzy. Today I feel still bit dizzy afterwards. But not so bad as the first day. And the interest thing is that I don’t get eyestrain. Last year I did get eyestrain trying the 14p. So I’m kind of hopeful. What was your experience with the pm the first couple days? Did you had symptoms? Otherwise I have to try the promax. But the pm is not available yet and it’s so expensive.
 

jm31828

macrumors 65816
Sep 28, 2015
1,394
896
Bothell, Washington
I know this thread is mostly about iPhones, but does anyone have any thoughts on eye strain with recent MacBooks- specifically the MacBook Air M2?

I see that Notebookcheck says this model has no PWM, and even says there is no temporal dithering- though I don't know how they can achieve the P3 color space on this display without temporal dithering/FRC flickering.

For those with sensitive eyes, how has the M2 MBA been for you?

I am tempted to pick one up (they are on sale right now at Best Buy for $899) to use for longer browsing/media consumption sessions (along with other work I can use it for), to minimize time spent staring at the flickering display (and the eye strain it causes me) on my iPhone 13 Mini.

But, I have tried different iPads- and found that even though those don't have PWM, I still get some eye discomfort- it's different than I get on my phone, with the iPads it's just a dry, slight burning sensation in my eyes instead of a headache or pain behind my eye as I get on the iPhone.

I am worried that the display somehow, some way would be the same as the iPads on the MacBook, but before buying it and trying it out for 2 weeks, I thought I'd see what others' experiences have been with it.
 

jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
2,484
3,310
UK
I know this thread is mostly about iPhones, but does anyone have any thoughts on eye strain with recent MacBooks- specifically the MacBook Air M2?

I see that Notebookcheck says this model has no PWM, and even says there is no temporal dithering- though I don't know how they can achieve the P3 color space on this display without temporal dithering/FRC flickering.

For those with sensitive eyes, how has the M2 MBA been for you?

I am tempted to pick one up (they are on sale right now at Best Buy for $899) to use for longer browsing/media consumption sessions (along with other work I can use it for), to minimize time spent staring at the flickering display (and the eye strain it causes me) on my iPhone 13 Mini.

But, I have tried different iPads- and found that even though those don't have PWM, I still get some eye discomfort- it's different than I get on my phone, with the iPads it's just a dry, slight burning sensation in my eyes instead of a headache or pain behind my eye as I get on the iPhone.

I am worried that the display somehow, some way would be the same as the iPads on the MacBook, but before buying it and trying it out for 2 weeks, I thought I'd see what others' experiences have been with it.
I'm in the same boat. The iPads irritate my eyes in a different way to the iPhones as well. I have a matter of hours before the student offer ends in the UK to snag a MBA 15" but have doubts about the display.

15” MBA — any reports on PWM, dithering, and eye or brain sensitivity?

 
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jm31828

macrumors 65816
Sep 28, 2015
1,394
896
Bothell, Washington
I'm in the same boat. The iPads irritate my eyes in a different way to the iPhones as well. I have a matter of hours before the student offer ends in the UK to snag a MBA 15" but have doubts about the display.

15” MBA — any reports on PWM, dithering, and eye or brain sensitivity?

Thanks for sharing, that thread was an interesting read.

The M2 Air I am looking at is the 13"- but in reality it looks like the 13" and 15" will mostly be the same, in that if one is problematic, both really will be.

Do you think you will place your order before the offer ends? And are you able to return it if it doesn't work out for you?
 

now i see it

macrumors G4
Jan 2, 2002
11,260
24,298
I am worried that the display somehow
MacBook Air M2 in both sizes supports the dreaded “Billions” of colors.
The only way an LCD screen can output that many fake colors is via the dreaded Temporal Dithering (color flickering).
Granted temporal dithering flickers at a much higher frequency than OLED PWM dimming — but the display is still flickering. Aaaaaaah.

Notebookcheck has lost all credibility in my book
 
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jm31828

macrumors 65816
Sep 28, 2015
1,394
896
Bothell, Washington
MacBook Air M2 in both sizes supports the dreaded “Billions” of colors.
The only way an LCD screen can output that many fake colors is via the dreaded Temporal Dithering (color flickering).
Granted temporal dithering flickers at a much higher frequency than OLED PWM dimming — but the display is still flickering. Aaaaaaah.

Notebookcheck has lost all credibility in my book
Thanks for clarifying. That was my rough understanding as well, and so it made no sense that Notebookcheck went out and made the bold statement that no temporal dithering is found on this (and the M1 MacBook Air).
 

jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
2,484
3,310
UK
Thanks for sharing, that thread was an interesting read.

The M2 Air I am looking at is the 13"- but in reality it looks like the 13" and 15" will mostly be the same, in that if one is problematic, both really will be.

Do you think you will place your order before the offer ends? And are you able to return it if it doesn't work out for you?
I could return but I can't put myself through any more eye strain or walks of shame to the Apple store, especially after having to return the 15PM recently. My gut says to leave it although I'm computer-less right now (and now won't pay full price after seeing the current offer). 😞
 
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Amplelink

macrumors 65816
Oct 8, 2012
1,013
458
I could return but I can't put myself through any more eye strain or walks of shame to the Apple store, especially after having to return the 15PM recently. My gut says to leave it although I'm computer-less right now (and now won't pay full price after seeing the current offer). 😞

Maybe try a different Apple Store? ;) But, honestly, I really don't think anyone at the store cares. The self consciousness is all within you!
 
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rodjam

macrumors member
Dec 13, 2008
36
37
I think the only Apple answer is to get a Mac Mini and an older spec Samsung LCD monitor that doesn’t have LED backlighting.
That’s what I have, but with a LG flicker-free monitor. I believe that the M1 MacBook Air also works, though. Apple is still selling that model and the screen is not the same as the M2 models.
 

jm31828

macrumors 65816
Sep 28, 2015
1,394
896
Bothell, Washington
That’s what I have, but with a LG flicker-free monitor. I believe that the M1 MacBook Air also works, though. Apple is still selling that model and the screen is not the same as the M2 models.
Something is different between the two- the M1 MacBook Air has PWM at brightness levels below 50%, but the M2 MacBook Air is noted as having no PWM at any brightness level. (though Notebookcheck also says that neither of these have temporal dithering, but that seems to be incorrect since both do some sort of funny business to display the P3 color palate.
 

DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
1,780
1,391
Just 3 observations:
1)if i was using my Oled mostly outdoors i believe i could make the switch. PWM symptoms at least for me are getting a lot worse while i am in hime.
2)i ve undergone a PRK eye surgery 10 years ago. My wife did Lasic back then. I gave her my iPhone 12 Pro and she is using it just fine with no issues at all. I am saying that because i read it somewhere that there is a connection with eye surgeries which is not the case at least for me. I also used iPhone X with no issues back then.
3)Is there a way to find which screen manufacturer is behind our phones ? BOE, LG or Samsung….. maybe we will found a pattern there.
 

jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
2,484
3,310
UK
Just 3 observations:
1)if i was using my Oled mostly outdoors i believe i could make the switch. PWM symptoms at least for me are getting a lot worse while i am in hime.
2)i ve undergone a PRK eye surgery 10 years ago. My wife did Lasic back then. I gave her my iPhone 12 Pro and she is using it just fine with no issues at all. I am saying that because i read it somewhere that there is a connection with eye surgeries which is not the case at least for me. I also used iPhone X with no issues back then.
3)Is there a way to find which screen manufacturer is behind our phones ? BOE, LG or Samsung….. maybe we will found a pattern there.
Don't know if this works? It requires 3rd party software which I haven't used nor do I endorse.

*retracted the link as I've been informed it might be spyware​

 
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jrajpaul

macrumors member
Dec 26, 2007
61
92
I know this thread is mostly about iPhones, but does anyone have any thoughts on eye strain with recent MacBooks- specifically the MacBook Air M2?

I see that Notebookcheck says this model has no PWM, and even says there is no temporal dithering- though I don't know how they can achieve the P3 color space on this display without temporal dithering/FRC flickering.

For those with sensitive eyes, how has the M2 MBA been for you?

I am tempted to pick one up (they are on sale right now at Best Buy for $899) to use for longer browsing/media consumption sessions (along with other work I can use it for), to minimize time spent staring at the flickering display (and the eye strain it causes me) on my iPhone 13 Mini.

But, I have tried different iPads- and found that even though those don't have PWM, I still get some eye discomfort- it's different than I get on my phone, with the iPads it's just a dry, slight burning sensation in my eyes instead of a headache or pain behind my eye as I get on the iPhone.

I am worried that the display somehow, some way would be the same as the iPads on the MacBook, but before buying it and trying it out for 2 weeks, I thought I'd see what others' experiences have been with it.
If your eye-strain is limited to OLED displays and is caused by PWM then the MacBook Air M2 will be fine. If your eye-strain is caused by something else (brightness,FRC etc), then you may experience symptoms. I have sensitivity to OLED (can't use any iPhone since iPhone 11 Pro). I can use MacBook Air M2 for hours without strain. Best computer I have ever owned.
 
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DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
1,780
1,391
Don't know if this works? It requires 3rd party software which I haven't used nor do I endorse.

*retracted the link as I've been informed it might be spyware​

Great tool:

So my iPhone 11 is from LG, my wife’s 12 Pro from Samsung and my brothers 12 mini is also from Samsung. So i need to found a BOE/LG Oled and give it a try :p

It would be very helpful if also other members in here to give us their results. At least those who had a win or are on the fence!
 

from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
73
267
An interesting fact I just learned is that the iphone 14/ 15 appears to be sharing the exact same dimming customization of irregular pseudo 60 hertz sine wave (made from 480 hertz) as the xperia 5 IV and V.

If we were to refer to reading from DXOmark display flicker test, we can see that this true.
1698211775143.png


1698209935767.png


If we were to verify DXOmark's data from difference sources such as fast shutter speed, we can observe that they are using the same 480 hertz implementation.

1698210023124.png

Xperia 5 V 480 hertz (custom modified to irregular pseudo 60 hertz sine wave - 9~12 banding lines artifacts found)



1698210059494.png

iPhone 15 480 hertz (custom modified to irregular pseudo 60 hertz sine wave - 9~12 banding lines artifacts found)

We observed that there are a total of 9~12 banding lines artifacts there. This is an indication of 480 hertz.



A native 240 hertz flicker hertz panel, however, like the iphone 15 pro;
will have 6~7 banding lines artifacts instead.

1698210144299.png

Iphone 15 pro - native 240 hertz flicker panel (6~7 banding lines artifact)


1698210196105.png

Galaxy S23 - native 240 hertz flicker panel (6~7 banding lines artifact)


For some screen panels like the Pixel 8 Pro or the Galaxy tab S9 plus (below), they show up as only 3 banding artifacts because they were originally 120 hertz flicker panel.

l8_Galaxy Tab S9 plus copy.png

Galaxy Tab S9+ - native 120 hertz with additional 120 hertz added in within each hertz. Totally up to a pseudo 240 hertz.



1698210312946.png

Pixel 8 pro - native 120 hertz with additional 120 hertz added in within each hertz. Totally up to a pseudo 240 hertz.

PWMM.jpg



Pixel 8 pro source material contributed by reddit member u/madmozg.



Thus it is likely to say for dimming implementation methods, manufacturers do appeared to be sharing the same factory "blueprint". The difference here is that at what value do they set the (i)modulation percentage, (ii) Duty Cyce %, and at what brightness do:

1) DC-like dimming,
2) Pulse Amplitude Modulation,
3) and lastly Pulse Width Modulation

~ switches between one another.

For instance with the Xperia 5 V, Sony customized it to:

• run DC-like dimming between 100% to 80% brightness,

• then switches to Pulse Amplitude Modulation(PAM) between 79% to 60% brightness (Duty cycle locked but modulation depth % increase),

• and finally Pulse Width Modulation(PWM) between 59% to 0% brightness. (Duty cycle changes, along with modulation depth % increasing)

Video source (timestamp from 0:49) :
With the iphone 15/ 15 plus, we observe that we may not even have access to DC-like dimming even at 100% brightness. Apple relied heavily on using Pulse Amplitude Modulation(PAM) (between brightness 100% to 20%) until it switches to using Pulse Width Modulation(PWM) between 20% to 0% brightness.

From here, we observed that both are similar dimming factory blueprints, though with completely different value set.

Thus we have two variables to eyestrain we are looking at here.

1) Display panel supplier variation (this determines longeity of the OLED panel in preventing screen burn in. The more fragile are the individual LEDs, the more flickering has to be applied by manufacturer)

2) Display controller variation (How it is configured, and how manufacturers set the respective values of flickers)
 
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1369281

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
1,886
Don't know if this works? It requires 3rd party software which I haven't used nor do I endorse.

*retracted the link as I've been informed it might be spyware​

Many sources on the Internet say this software is spyware (or worse) from China. I would be cautious when installing something like this.
 
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