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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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So, iPhone 14/15 are not using an implementation of DC dimming as previously speculated. I was awaiting your analysis on this.An interesting fact I just learned is that the iphone 14/ 15 appears to be sharing the exact same dimming customization of irregular pseudo 60 hertz sine wave (made from 480 hertz) as the xperia 5 IV and V.
If we were to refer to reading from DXOmark display flicker test, we can see that this true.
View attachment 2301602
View attachment 2301579
If we were to verify DXOmark's data from difference sources such as fast shutter speed, we can observe that they are using the same 480 hertz implementation.
View attachment 2301581
Xperia 5 V 480 hertz (custom modified to irregular pseudo 60 hertz sine wave - 9~12 banding lines artifacts found)
View attachment 2301584
iPhone 15 480 hertz (custom modified to irregular pseudo 60 hertz sine wave - 9~12 banding lines artifacts found)
We observed that there are a total of 9~12 banding lines artifacts there. This is an indication of 480 hertz.
A native 240 hertz flicker hertz panel, however, like the iphone 15 pro;
will have 6~7 banding lines artifacts instead.
View attachment 2301585
Iphone 15 pro - native 240 hertz flicker panel (6~7 banding lines artifact)
View attachment 2301586
Galaxy S23 - native 240 hertz flicker panel (6~7 banding lines artifact)
For some screen panels like the Pixel 8 Pro or the Galaxy tab S9 plus (below), they show up as only 3 banding artifacts because they were originally 120 hertz flicker panel.
View attachment 2301587
Galaxy Tab S9+ - native 120 hertz with additional 120 hertz added in within each hertz. Totally up to a pseudo 240 hertz.
View attachment 2301588
Pixel 8 pro - native 120 hertz with additional 120 hertz added in within each hertz. Totally up to a pseudo 240 hertz.
View attachment 2301590
Pixel 8 pro source material contributed by reddit member u/madmozg.
Thus it is likely to say for dimming implementation methods, manufacturers do appeared to be sharing the same factory "blueprint". The difference here is that at what value do they set the (i)modulation percentage, (ii) Duty Cyce %, and at what brightness do:
1) DC-like dimming,
2) Pulse Amplitude Modulation,
3) and lastly Pulse Width Modulation
~ switches between one another.
For instance with the Xperia 5 V, Sony customized it to:
• run DC-like dimming between 100% to 80% brightness,
• then switches to Pulse Amplitude Modulation(PAM) between 79% to 60% brightness (Duty cycle locked but modulation depth % increase),
• and finally Pulse Width Modulation(PWM) between 59% to 0% brightness. (Duty cycle changes, along with modulation depth % increasing)
Video source (timestamp from 0:49) :索尼Xperia 5 V频闪展示和上手体验_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
-, 视频播放量 1976、弹幕量 3、点赞数 50、投硬币枚数 8、收藏人数 4、转发人数 1, 视频作者 低调的山, 作者简介 新浪微博@低调的山 ，相关视频：索尼亮铁拳：5.8英寸+4nm芯，这才是我想要的小屏旗舰，Sony Xperia 5 V 开箱上手 - 少一颗镜头?! AI自动剪片?!，mate60pro流畅度没话说，就是频闪严重，对眼睛敏感的不好，普通大学生告诉你索尼Xperia 1V真实使用感受：这次真的能冲了！，2023 全程DC 没有频闪 LCD手机，苹果15系列屏幕PWM频闪测试＋降低白点值效果，Xperia...www.bilibili.com
With the iphone 15/ 15 plus, we observe that we may not even have access to DC-like dimming even at 100% brightness. Apple relied heavily on using Pulse Amplitude Modulation(PAM) (between brightness 100% to 20%) until it switches to using Pulse Width Modulation(PWM) between 20% to 0% brightness.
From here, we observed that both are similar dimming factory blueprints, though with completely different value set.
Thus we have two variables to eyestrain we are looking at here.
1) Display panel supplier variation (this determines longeity of the OLED panel in preventing screen burn in. The more fragile are the individual LEDs, the more flickering has to be applied by manufacturer)
2) Display controller variation (How it is configured, and how manufacturers set the respective values of flickers)
For whatever reason the Motorola Razr+ has been better than any experience I’ve had with a modern iPhone. The display may oddly cause less sensitivity on the default setting without the Flicker Prevention enabled. That being said if I enabled Flicker Prevention and had no issues I wouldn’t have to test both settings. It’s still not perfect but maybe good enough that if I wanted a more modern smartphone than iPhone SE I could use it if I can deal with minor headaches, which still seems dumb for a device we use all-day.
Side note: the A15 Bionic decimates the Snapdragon 8 gen 1. iPhone SE is still solid beyond having a dated display.
Since I’m catching up on a few posts here simultaneously, and apologize for not quoting the users that asked: I haven’t tested the M1 iPad Pro so I can’t comment on that. I’ve never had any issues with any of the iPad’s I’ve owned. I would say that the display on the M2 11” iPad Pro is better than the MacBook Air in terms of quality and any potential sensitivities. I even find it preferable to the 14” MacBook Pro outside of HDR content. @jimmy_uk
I would buy a light meter, but there hasn’t been a setting or brightness range where I could say “yeah, this feels comfortable” so I’ll just go off of my own eyes and headache response. Otherwise numbers are meaningless.
Awaiting Apple’s next move to either incorporate DC dimming or high-frequency PWM, but I’m growing increasingly pessimistic that it won’t completely alleviate the symptoms and lead to a usable iPhone. I do find it intriguing that the Honor 90 OLED is certified as flicker-free, even if it just uses a higher PWM frequency, but I’m not super keen on continuing to test devices.
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Good spyware usually works as advertised while it is sending all of your data to “home.” I would not trust that “3utools” application. Best of luck. I agree iTunes for Windows is intentionally bad. Haha
Thank you for sharing the above. Yes indeed, I was trying to gather more insights to this new dimming phenomenon. For it is something totally new and not commonly discussed, even among the Chinese communities.
It turns out for the iphone 14/15, underneath each the 60 hertz pseudo sine wave, perceivable flickering at every 8 intervals within the 480 hertz can be found. It is very likely that it is using Pulse Amplitude Modulation (PAM) to regulate the brightness, instead of DC-like Dimming.
As pointed out by a few reddit members, this "underlying" flicker can only be detected if we put the light flicker meter right up to the screen. The question back then was whether are we affected by this underneath flickering, or is this by design of some of the newer OLED dimming methods.
We want to avoid being in a situation where we falsely called out there is a wolf - in this case; flicker that affects us - when in reality there isn't one. Or vice versa.
Thus now we have evidence to confirm that the underlying flicker does affects us. This is because Pulse Amplitude Modulation (PAM) is at work here.
This bring to the question some have raised. Why does CRT monitor/ TVs operate at 60 hertz with such high modulation and yet most were fine with it. There are two reasons to this.
Firstly, the 60 hertz sine wave in CRT contains an afterglow that last for milleseconds of every of its flicker interval. This is not found in any LED lighting solutions.
The afterglow effect of CRT occurs between the screen dimmest point and the brightness peak. Thus it would appear that the display engineers intended to replicate the behaviour of CRT by introducing these 60 hertz pseudo sine wave.
Based on the graphs I have examined, they seem to have simulated it wrongly. Instead of slotting the "afterglow" between the brightness dimmest and peak points, they have inserted 8 of those beneath the dimmest point, and another 8 on the brightness peak. While none were inserted between the brightness dimmest and peak point.
This may not seem like an ideal solution. It is like trying to reach for an object that was stuck on a tree, that is a few meters away the ground. A ladder was therefore requested and installed. However, as the ladder was twice the length of the required reach, a hole was dugged beneath the ground in order to fit the ladder in.
I just drew this below to illustrate the flaws of this implementation. Note that the ground implies screen brightness dimmest point, and purse implies screen brightness peak point.
Now, one might wonder why not just get a small ladder to reach for that purse. It seems like an extremely easy and a no brainer fix. This would have easily addressed many of the issues relating to those that are flicker sensitive.
However, unfortunately reality does not work that way. The biggest hurdle manufacturers faced today is the risk of screen burn in. Hence, a huge ladder(to allow screen to "rest") is necessary to prevent that from happening.
Thus, I do not foresee that this iphone 14/15 current implementation of pseudo sine wave of 60 hertz(which aims to simulate a CRT behavior) advancing further from what we have today.
The only way this display implemenation can have progress is to have a significantly better OLED panel with increased longevity.
This will remove the need to "dig up a hole beneath the surface" to prevent screen burn in. It will also allow the "afterglow" to be directly between the brightness dimmest and peak levels. It will then actualize what the display engineers originally intended it to be.
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Today, Xiaomi introduces the Xiaomi 14 line, and they have already presented some colors and some screenshots. They mention 全程DC调光 (full DC dimming), I don't know if it's a real full DC Dimming, or just that they use a semi Dc dimming + PWM, but looking for that term in google I get Chinese forums talking about the first Samsung AMOLED screens and their burn-in, and mentioning devices like Black Shark 2.
So we'll have to see what it really is.
So we'll have to see what it really is.
@MICHAELSD
In regards to Honor 90's "flicker free", I was trying to trace back to the original statement made by Honor. What I can conclude is that this claim is likely a result of "lost in translation".
What Honor has claimed about the Honor 90 are the following:
(I will do the translation since I am also a near native mandarin speaker.)
1) 零风险护眼屏
My translation:
This translates into "Risk-free, eye-friendly screen". 零风险 means risk free.
护眼屏 means eye-friendly screen panel.
My thoughts on this:
By "risk free", they were explicitly referring to what was proposed by IEE1789-2015 lighting proposed guidelines, where it was suggested that flicker hertz above 3125 hertz would be considered risk-free, regardless of the modulation depth.
www.linkedin.com
However, what IEE1789-2015 have suggested of "risk-free" is only referring to potiential triggers of epilepsy. This number is not inclusive of tension headache, migraine or even eyestrain.
This was exactly why I created a post arguing that the lighting guideline for "risk free" is severely outdated by today's research standards.
"Risk free" does not even cover the common symptoms of eyestrain, tension headache,and migraine for those that are really sensitive to flickers. Furthermore, the number proposed is not inclusive of PWM.
My argument that 3125 hertz is insufficient for those that are even more sensitive is consistent with the exchange I had with the researcher I recently communicated with.
The researcher suggested that if no PWM dimming method is used, Temporal light modulation is recommended to be at least 14khz hertz. In the context of screen, it is likely to be referring to Pulse Amplitude Modulation(PAM) methods that went up to 99% modulation depth.
The researcher also added that should Pulse Width Modulation(PWM) is used, it is highly recommended to have minimum 20khz and above.
Thus based on the above, Honor did not directly claimed that their Honor 90 are flicker-free. They are right in claiming that their panels are risk-free. Though the problem is also with IEEE1789-2015 outdated guidelines.
Moving on to the next claim by Honor
2) 得到TÜV莱茵无频闪认证
My translation:
Awarded "flicker-free" certification from TÜV Rheinland.
My personal thoughts on this:
I will generally take "flicker-free" certification issued by TÜV Rheinland with a grain of salt. The reason is that ~ in order to pass the low benchmark of TÜV Rheinland, all that was required is to exceed 2500 hertz at 100% modulation depth. As what we know with the Honor 90, they did have 3840 hertz.
In fact, it is just up to manufacturers whether they wish to submit an application to TÜV Rheinland to receive that "flicker-free" certification.
In regards to Honor 90's "flicker free", I was trying to trace back to the original statement made by Honor. What I can conclude is that this claim is likely a result of "lost in translation".
What Honor has claimed about the Honor 90 are the following:
(I will do the translation since I am also a near native mandarin speaker.)
1) 零风险护眼屏
My translation:
This translates into "Risk-free, eye-friendly screen". 零风险 means risk free.
护眼屏 means eye-friendly screen panel.
My thoughts on this:
By "risk free", they were explicitly referring to what was proposed by IEE1789-2015 lighting proposed guidelines, where it was suggested that flicker hertz above 3125 hertz would be considered risk-free, regardless of the modulation depth.
Latest EU Policy: Flicker-free Lighting Becomes a Must
LED lights are increasingly used in daily life, home, office, indoor and outdoor. Terms like “flicker”, “flicker-free”, and “eye safety” are more frequently mentioned in lighting commercials.
However, what IEE1789-2015 have suggested of "risk-free" is only referring to potiential triggers of epilepsy. This number is not inclusive of tension headache, migraine or even eyestrain.
This was exactly why I created a post arguing that the lighting guideline for "risk free" is severely outdated by today's research standards.
"Risk free" does not even cover the common symptoms of eyestrain, tension headache,and migraine for those that are really sensitive to flickers. Furthermore, the number proposed is not inclusive of PWM.
My argument that 3125 hertz is insufficient for those that are even more sensitive is consistent with the exchange I had with the researcher I recently communicated with.
The researcher suggested that if no PWM dimming method is used, Temporal light modulation is recommended to be at least 14khz hertz. In the context of screen, it is likely to be referring to Pulse Amplitude Modulation(PAM) methods that went up to 99% modulation depth.
The researcher also added that should Pulse Width Modulation(PWM) is used, it is highly recommended to have minimum 20khz and above.
Thus based on the above, Honor did not directly claimed that their Honor 90 are flicker-free. They are right in claiming that their panels are risk-free. Though the problem is also with IEEE1789-2015 outdated guidelines.
Moving on to the next claim by Honor
2) 得到TÜV莱茵无频闪认证
My translation:
Awarded "flicker-free" certification from TÜV Rheinland.
My personal thoughts on this:
I will generally take "flicker-free" certification issued by TÜV Rheinland with a grain of salt. The reason is that ~ in order to pass the low benchmark of TÜV Rheinland, all that was required is to exceed 2500 hertz at 100% modulation depth. As what we know with the Honor 90, they did have 3840 hertz.
In fact, it is just up to manufacturers whether they wish to submit an application to TÜV Rheinland to receive that "flicker-free" certification.
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Due to my recent issues with IOS17 on the Iphone 11 I rung my neurologists medical secretary to discuss and she asked me to email the issues to her and she would forward it on as he always welcomes more unique scenarios. My condition NDPH is more often than not triggered by a bout of illness/covid or by a trauma such as a car crash etc.
Before long everyone will be using OLED. Take for instance my parents and grandparents, all using iphone 8's/11's simply due to handset cost. Sooner or later they will change phones and opt for an OLED model, every day that passes more people will have their eyes meet an OLED for the first time.
Appreciate hardly anyone that suffers PWM ends up under the care or a neurologist but now I have my email written I am wondering whether to send it out to other specialists I can find on the net. Suppose it could fall into the lap of a student wanting to write a dissertation on the matter or for it to be brought up in meetings with other specialists around the world.
Any exposure is good exposure right?
Before long everyone will be using OLED. Take for instance my parents and grandparents, all using iphone 8's/11's simply due to handset cost. Sooner or later they will change phones and opt for an OLED model, every day that passes more people will have their eyes meet an OLED for the first time.
Appreciate hardly anyone that suffers PWM ends up under the care or a neurologist but now I have my email written I am wondering whether to send it out to other specialists I can find on the net. Suppose it could fall into the lap of a student wanting to write a dissertation on the matter or for it to be brought up in meetings with other specialists around the world.
Any exposure is good exposure right?
Already did. Also tried iPhone 12 mini for one day and remembered why iPhone 12 line was the worst for me by far! Except 12 pro.
So this year, was it just one of the crowd that got airlifted out = PwmMen?
Maybe we don't have good news here, or something new at least, as in the presentation they have shown this image and the DC Dimming of the Xiaomi 14 seems to be the same as the Xiaomi 13, there is no indication in the image that there is a new feature in this new generation.
(It is the penultimate feature)
The Xiaomi 14 Pro has "rhythm eye protection" and 1920hz PWM.
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You've probably said already mate, but just to clarify, as you've advised others who had the 15 PM the symptoms do subside at least for yourself. Did you experience any initial symptoms that dissipated with consistent use? or was there no perceivable symptoms straight out the the box?@jimmy_uk
Still no problems here with my iPhone 15 Pro Max.
Still, I'd rather have a flicker-free iPhone.
But I'm very happy that I can now use a current iPhone.
Now the review of the iPhone 15 is available on Notebookcheck (german):
www.notebookcheck.com
They measured 306 Hz on very low brightness.
Test Apple iPhone 15 Smartphone – Das Apple-Handy zoomt endlich näher ran
Auch in der 15. Generation soll das iPhone eines der besten Smartphones werden. Dafür hat Apple ein neues Kamerasystem mit Tele-Zoom spendiert, bringt Dynamic Island auf das Smartphone und senkt gegenüber letztem Jahr sogar die Preise etwas. Ob die Neuerungen überzeugen, erfahren Sie im Test.
They measured 306 Hz on very low brightness.
I've tried a iPhone 15 a couple times in stores and my wife has a regular 15 and it doesn't seem to bother me. Of course I have an iPhone 14 from last year that I'm using that doesn't cause me any problems.
That 14 is the unicorn OLED iPhone for me.
The 15 doesn't seem quite as easy to look at as the 14. That could be just a case of screen lottery though?
Tried a 15 pro in a store and had some immediate nausea. Guessing it was the promotion for me
Could you clarify on the comment between iPad Pro and iPad Air in regards to the Pro being better for potential sensitivities? I am curious what the difference is there, besides ProMotion on the Pro.
I took a look at this- the screenshots at 25% and 50% brightness look completely flat, with no modulation just as the LCD displays do. How can that be? Does it mean there is PWM flicker, but modulation depth is so incredibly shallow that it's barely noticeable in this testing?Now the review of the iPhone 15 is available on Notebookcheck (german):
Test Apple iPhone 15 Smartphone – Das Apple-Handy zoomt endlich näher ran
Auch in der 15. Generation soll das iPhone eines der besten Smartphones werden. Dafür hat Apple ein neues Kamerasystem mit Tele-Zoom spendiert, bringt Dynamic Island auf das Smartphone und senkt gegenüber letztem Jahr sogar die Preise etwas. Ob die Neuerungen überzeugen, erfahren Sie im Test.
They measured 306 Hz on very low brightness.
Did the symptoms get worse with more use of the 15 Pro Max? any tension headaches?
Any tips for reducing flickering 🙃 left eye is in absolute agony 😓 would a privacy screen protected make things worse?
The only workaround: https://www.apple.com/iphone-se/
The absolute best screen you can look at is the iPhone 6S Plus. 401 ppi LCD.
They are still available and run iOS 15. Super cheap too.
Coincidently, in regards to chronic headache features from smartphone usage, a member on reddit has raised the same concern as you did.
One of the comments replied in that thread appears to be the answer you were looking for
Quote:
End quoteDo send your testimony (below) to Naomi J Miller. She is a leading lighting designer expert and scientist working at the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. Naomi is currently working in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Energy’s Lighting R&D Program, and is collecting more testimonies so that this issue can be more visible to the public.
https://www.pnnl.gov/contacts/staffinfo.asp?uid=733F8F4D23DCAE4794E27B4E6E29CFAE
Naomi J Miller's introduction video to flickerings.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/ssl/flicker-basics
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