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Are you experiencing this issue?


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pwm away

macrumors regular
Sep 17, 2022
131
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Australia
Meanwhile, I’ve put the Honor 90 aside.

The screen was great, but the OS not so much. While it reminds me of iOS, and runs fairly well, I did encounter a few key bugs that annoy me too much. There are also a few too many unnecessary notifications from inbuilt apps, and coincidentally, I’ve seen a significant increase in SMS spam messages since activating it 🤷‍♂️

For now, given iOS 17.1 just came out, I’ve reset the 15 Plus, and giving that another shot.
One thing I did notice (after experiencing the Honor 90 screen), is that turning True Tone off feels nicer to me.
 

1369281

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pwm away

macrumors regular
Sep 17, 2022
131
263
Australia
Did I read that correctly?
Yep! At least, the way I read it, the author had no issues with either. But regardless, he doesn’t have issues with it currently, at 240Hz.

It is just a tad strange. Additionally, the silence from the companies is annoying, to say the least. On the upside, it looks like software updates can significantly change the way the displays operate.
 

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,484
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Yep! At least, the way I read it, the author had no issues with either. But regardless, he doesn’t have issues with it currently, at 240Hz.

It is just a tad strange. Additionally, the silence from the companies is annoying, to say the least. On the upside, it looks like software updates can significantly change the way the displays operate.
On the contrary, software updates usually seem to make the flickering worse, not better. If Apple is preparing a flicker-free update, go ahead and push it out to the iPhone 15 series.

I’m at the point where I’m ready to try an iPhone 15, even if I know realistically 99% what the outcome will be. I just feel stuck on iPhone SE, and it’s really not practical to have a device that causes persistent throbbing behind the eyes.

I’m also getting worried and almost accepting that we may be on iPhone 25 one day and still not have a solution. We could be seniors eventually and be going “that darned PWM pushing me to use my Apple Vision Pro as my only Apple device.”

Unless that also uses PWM.
 
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DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
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They say iPad mini 7 only internal upgrades so it would still continue with LCD. Are they going to introduce se4 too ?
 

now i see it

macrumors G4
Jan 2, 2002
11,260
24,298
My guess is we still have several more years until micro LED arrives. It may (or may not) be a PWM monster too. But it’s our only hope.
My guess.... iPhone 20 (iPhone XX) will be the first iPhone to get it. The 10 year anniversary since the iPhone X.
So...5 more years of OLED hell fellas.
 
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Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
My guess is we still have several more years until micro LED arrives. It may (or may not) be a PWM monster too. But it’s our only hope.
My guess.... iPhone 20 (iPhone XX) will be the first iPhone to get it. The 10 year anniversary since the iPhone X.
So...5 more years of OLED hell fellas.
This is very frustrating to hear. And also sad. Why are the Chinese manufacturiers doing their best to have an eye friendly screens and Apple and Samsung don't care. If i was sure that Apple wouldnt do anything about this issue untill 2027. I would give up on Apple and Sell my Apple products and buy an Android. Their silence is also frustrating.
 

from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
73
267
... Why are the Chinese manufacturiers doing their best to have an eye friendly screens ...

Good question and I am glad this point was finally raised.

(Assuming that what you have raised is a legitimate question and not a rhetorical one.)

The reason why Chinese manufacturers appear to be revising and improved version of flicker reduction implementation so rapidly is because they work directly with the flicker sensitive community. They constantly collect feedback, and continue to push the boundaries of OLED panels, while being mindful of the restrain of the panels' limits.

Both the flicker sensitive communities and the engineers work unanimously.

However, unfortunately the same cannot be said about the western english online community counterpart.

In our english (general) community, the more vocal ones are mostly "every man for themselves". Many are (in general) motivated by their self-interest, and mostly driven by finding the phone/ panel that works only for themselves, rather than for the community.

Additionally, this phenomenon is perhaps also attributed to the「自分中心」mentality. (I can't really translate this japanese word to english, but it is somewhere along the lines of "having the world revolves around oneself"). For many that are not sensitive to the flickers, there is an assumption that should it not work for the others, then it is likely a "YOU" problem.

Moving on diving in deeper into our familiar community, we still do continue to see the same behavior being exhibited. For instance, with the recently launched Pixel 8/ 8 pro. A few who have early access to the device made bold statements that this year's Google's iteration have finally resolved the demi-decade long PWM issue. The statement was made on the basis that if it worked for them, them it ought to have worked for everyone else in the flicker sensitive community.

The above mentality have neglected that every other individual is different and that different individuals could have different level of flicker sensitivity threshold. (In social psychology, this is called Fundamental attribution error. Explanation to concept in the link below).

This polarization that exist even within our flicker sensitive community makes senior display engineers role difficult.

Referring back to the earlier example — hypothetically speaking, should Pixel 8 pro is the pinnacle of OLED dimming methods for the flicker sensitive community, then it is correct to assume that more of Pixel 8 pro's dimming implementation ought to be continued in all other future devices. As this was what have worked well for the community.

However, despite the above, the online community continued to complain of PWM sensitivity. This contradiction puts the display engineers in a difficult position.

Furthermore, within the online community there are those that attempted to use conspiracy theories(of companies) to generate hype, web views traffics, drawing attention to oneself for one's personal gains. When display engineers browse through the community and saw those allegation and conspiracies made against them, it puts further strain in the relationship between the manufacturers and our english speaking community.


Of course, this is a generalization. Over the last few years, we also saw many individuals that have attempted to make a difference. Such as:

• Going all out to purchase a smartphone to test on behalf of the community;

• Buying flicker meters so that screen flickers can be quantified and represented in data — and then shared among the communities for observable common patterns;

• Building their own custom oscilloscope and sharing knowledge on how to build one;

• Constantly having the community updated with the progress on their symptoms (Something I have observed that is commonly practiced in this forum community as well, which is really fantastic);

However, we do not have a common practice where we have some form of quantifiable data where the community can agree unanimously that it might work ~ for the 5th percentile to the 95 percentile of the flicker sensitive community.

As of now,what our english community can agree that only readings from LCD panels work for this range of 5th to 95th percentile.

This is not an option for the display engineers since LCD panels are likely to be phrased out entirely in the near future.



I hope this answers your question as to why are the Chinese manufacturers appears to be doing their best to have eye friendly screens for their consumers. While on the other hand the same cannot be applied to our english speaking community.

This is mainly attributed to different cutures, different context, and different mentality.



Concept to the above phenomenon I have pointed out on this cultural difference between the english and chinese community is called:

Fundamental attribution error.

source:

 
Last edited:

Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
Today I talked with my friend and complained about this issue. She works at Apple. She suggested me to write an email to Tim Cook. Apparently he reads his mail everyday and sometimes he responds to customers. I told him about many apple users and fans can’t use there products because of PWM. And after 7 years there is still no solution. Maybe he will read it. And respond to it. We will see. :). My second mail will go to the head of hardware engineering.
 

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
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3,494
NJ
Today I talked with my friend and complained about this issue. She works at Apple. She suggested me to write an email to Tim Cook. Apparently he reads his mail everyday and sometimes he responds to customers. I told him about many apple users and fans can’t use there products because of PWM. And after 7 years there is still no solution. Maybe he will read it. And respond to it. We will see. :). My second mail will go to the head of hardware engineering.
This has worked for me in the past, and I believe that Apple’s display team has become slightly more cognizant of flicker sensitivity, but all we have to do is look at the iPhone 15 series to see the progression that our feedback has influenced.
 

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,484
3,494
NJ
This is very frustrating to hear. And also sad. Why are the Chinese manufacturiers doing their best to have an eye friendly screens and Apple and Samsung don't care. If i was sure that Apple wouldnt do anything about this issue untill 2027. I would give up on Apple and Sell my Apple products and buy an Android. Their silence is also frustrating.
I’m becoming realistic about this as well: this may not change until we get MicroLED, and even then there’s no guarantee that it will be a pleasant flicker-free experience. It is possible that we won’t be able to use an iPhone again until iPhone 20, or iPhone 25, or iPhone 30.

I’m considering trying iPhone 15, but I don’t want to give up my health for OLED longevity. We need flicker-free, and/or modulations at or under .75%.
 

iLuddite

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2023
418
766
I’m becoming realistic about this as well: this may not change until we get MicroLED, and even then there’s no guarantee that it will be a pleasant flicker-free experience. It is possible that we won’t be able to use an iPhone again until iPhone 20, or iPhone 25, or iPhone 30.

I’m considering trying iPhone 15, but I don’t want to give up my health for OLED longevity. We need flicker-free, and/or modulations at or under .75%.
Give the 15 a try, I say. Thus far my experiences with OLED iPhones fall into two predominate camps—“return immediately” or “it’s a keeper”—XS and 14 Pro the former, and 12, 13 mini, and 15 the latter. Not entirely perfect but usable sans (serious) symptoms.
 

now i see it

macrumors G4
Jan 2, 2002
11,260
24,298
Symptom free or not.... who wants to stare at a screen that’s doing this?
347A4364-425B-477C-897B-CBD1FE0BBEFB.png


Or This?
CFE72F7F-DC1F-4BFF-B0D5-3D09A5789661.png


Both PWM graphs above are from iPhones
 

Ac1d 8urn

macrumors 6502
Nov 10, 2020
344
793
Wisconsin
Well, I was doing okay with my 14 pro for a while but unfortunately the problem has been coming back :( It starts out like a squeezing pain behind my eyes, forehead, and temples then settles into a thrumming headache that spreads across my entire skull and lasts for days. UGH! I'm realizing I can now only tolerate this phone for about a week at a time before the pain sets in, even though it seemed fine for the first few months that I had it. I guess it's back to my SE for daily use and only using the 14 pro for pokemon days or whenever I know I'll be out somewhere taking lots of pictures.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, is anyone else here on the autism spectrum? I am and I recently found out something very cool/interesting- lots of autistic people have enhanced color perception, meaning we see colors more vividly and can distinguish more shades(for example, I always get perfect scores on color tests). We can also be very sensitive to light and become visually overwhelmed very easily. I'm wondering if this is why I'm sensitive to some screens? Maybe this is why the SE's screen looks so nice to me even though most people think it looks like crap, because in a way I'm actually seeing "more" of it.

IDK, I'm kind of rambling but I've been thinking about that lately and it makes sense to me.
 
Last edited:

from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
73
267
Well, I was doing okay with my 14 pro for a while but unfortunately the problem has been coming back :( It starts out like a squeezing pain, noticeable but not excruciating, behind my eyes, forehead, and temples then settles into a thrumming headache that lasts for days. UGH! I'm realizing I can now only tolerate this phone for about a week at a time before the pain sets in, even though it seemed fine for the first few months that I had it. I guess it's back to my SE for daily use and only using the 14 pro for pokemon days or whenever I know I'll be out somewhere taking lots of pictures.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, is anyone else here on the autism spectrum? I am and I recently found out something very cool/interesting- lots of autistic people have enhanced color perception, meaning we see colors more vividly and can distinguish more shades(for example, I always get perfect scores on color tests). We can also be very sensitive to light and become visually overwhelmed very easily. I'm wondering if this is why I'm sensitive to some screens? Maybe this is why the SE's screen looks so nice to me even though most people think it looks like crap, because in a way I'm actually seeing "more" of it.

IDK, I'm kind of rambling but I've been thinking about that lately and it makes sense to me.
There are a number of studies that showed that there is a correlation between autism spectrum and what you have brought up.

However even within the autism spectrum there are those that are more susceptive to external stimulus(such as strobing lights), while some that are under stimulated by external stimulus.

For those that are sensitive, they will get symptoms of headache and eyestrain etc as the information is too overwhelming to the visual cortex of the brain.

On the other hand, there are also others that are under stimulated, meaning they will intentionally (or unintentionally) seek strobing lights with high blue light waves to compensate for their lack of stimulus.

This is called hypersensitivity (sensitive to flickering) vs hyposensitivity(deliberately seek flickering).

Source on hyper vs hypo in autism spectrum sensitivity:
https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/autism/sensory-overload#:~:text=One of the most common,have a combination of both.


It is not just those with autism that are vulnerable. Individuals with chronic migraine (such as myself) are probably affected the most. There are also other possible conditions that are at increased risk of being affected.

This sensitivity to flicker is actually no different to sensitivity to motion sickness. There are individuals that get affected from 3D effects (such as visuals coming out of screens), while some don’t.

This is because these motion sickness are affecting those psychologically, rather than their eyes etc. however, it is not as single dimensional as it seems. While those flickers are psychological affecting us, our body is responding involuntarily to it.

From what we know, the 3D effect has posed a negative health impact on developing children. Hence Nintendo, one of the leading companies that made 3D visuals mainstream(to children), found evidence of its risk. They quickly prohibited the production of those 3D enabled handheld gaming devices.

Returning back to this screen flickering at hand ~ While we can simply write this off as an inadequate accessibility attention, we do not know what are the harmful effect of strobe lights on developing children either. Especially with such close proximity of less than 1.5 meters away.

Also imo, advising someone to be not affected by the flickering is akin to telling someone with Tourette syndrome to stop having muscle jerks/tics.
 
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1369281

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Oct 8, 2006
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Nothing new here, but I was at Apple Store tonight and was measuring the flicker index of the iPhone 15 models... I still can't believe these displays are -- quite frankly -- legal.
  1. They all gave me headaches almost immediately. My entire head was swimming. Hard to describe exactly what was happening. Headaches forming.
  2. At lower brightness levels, some of the ripple coefficients were measuring at 33%. I mean... there is a study that is frequently posted that says light(bulbs) should be no more than 5% at the MAXIMUM.
This is totally ridiculous. What a disaster.
 
Last edited:

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
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Nothing new here, but I was at Apple Store tonight and was measuring the flicker index of the iPhone 15 models... I still can't believe these displays are -- quite frankly -- legal.
  1. They all gave me headaches almost immediately. My entire head was swimming. Hard to describe exactly what was happening. Headaches forming.
  2. At lower brightness levels, some of the ripple coefficients were measuring at 33%. I mean... there is a study that is frequently posted that says light(bulbs) should be no more than 5% at the MAXIMUM.
This is totally ridiculous. What a disaster.
It boggles my mind how people can stare at these devices all-day, and how they aren’t affected by all of the different frequencies and modulations.

Of all the companies to fix this and do it first, we would expect it to be Apple.
 

Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
236
I think the correct statement is: “very few people are aware “
Haha I tried to explain it to my friends, colleagues and family. First they don’t understand. Like what are you talking about? I’m sure some of them still don’t understand. Then they think oh that sucks for you. And they move on and they don’t care. Because they are not affected by it. Now a days everyone has an OLED screen and they can use with out problems. Well at least it’s not a problem like the community here on this forum. I haven’t met anyone with this problem yet. Just one girl last year on vacation. She bought a new Samsung and had eyestrain since. I explained PWm and showed her some videos. I don’t know if she still used her Samsung.
 

Chuckles55

macrumors member
Feb 9, 2023
49
84
Mississippi
Not autistic, although my son has Asperger's and uses a 13 Pro Max with no problems. I have had Grand Mal seizures when I was younger however, I'm curious if anyone else with PWM issues has a history of seizures.
 
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Ac1d 8urn

macrumors 6502
Nov 10, 2020
344
793
Wisconsin
There are a number of studies that showed that there is a correlation between autism spectrum and what you have brought up.

However even within the autism spectrum there are those that are more susceptive to external stimulus(such as strobing lights), while some that are under stimulated by external stimulus.

For those that are sensitive, they will get symptoms of headache and eyestrain etc as the information is too overwhelming to the visual cortex of the brain.

On the other hand, there are also others that are under stimulated, meaning they will intentionally (or unintentionally) seek strobing lights with high blue light waves to compensate for their lack of stimulus.

This is called hypersensitivity (sensitive to flickering) vs hyposensitivity(deliberately seek flickering).

Source on hyper vs hypo in autism spectrum sensitivity:
https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/autism/sensory-overload#:~:text=One of the most common,have a combination of both.


It is not just those with autism that are vulnerable. Individuals with chronic migraine (such as myself) are probably affected the most. There are also other possible conditions that are at increased risk of being affected.

This sensitivity to flicker is actually no different to sensitivity to motion sickness. There are individuals that get affected from 3D effects (such as visuals coming out of screens), while some don’t.

This is because these motion sickness are affecting those psychologically, rather than their eyes etc. however, it is not as single dimensional as it seems. While those flickers are psychological affecting us, our body is responding involuntarily to it.

From what we know, the 3D effect has posed a negative health impact on developing children. Hence Nintendo, one of the leading companies that made 3D visuals mainstream(to children), found evidence of its risk. They quickly prohibited the production of those 3D enabled handheld gaming devices.

Returning back to this screen flickering at hand ~ While we can simply write this off as an inadequate accessibility attention, we do not know what are the harmful effect of strobe lights on developing children either. Especially with such close proximity of less than 1.5 meters away.

Also imo, advising someone to be not affected by the flickering is akin to telling someone with Tourette syndrome to stop having muscle jerks/tics.

Wow great info, thanks. I also get migraines and motion sickness, and can't handle 3D or even VR so after reading this I'm kind of shocked I can tolerate pro phones for any length of time at all. My son is also autistic and extremely photosensitive so I'll have to be careful when he's old enough for a phone.

I have a feeling I'm going to end up back on a flip phone at some point though if companies keep pushing OLED and variable refresh rates. Makes me wanna scream every time people comment hoping the SE 4 comes with OLED and 120hz. God please no lol. If phone makers don't start taking this issue seriously eventually there will be no usable smartphones to choose from once our SEs and 11s go fully obsolete 😖
 
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Ac1d 8urn

macrumors 6502
Nov 10, 2020
344
793
Wisconsin
Haha I tried to explain it to my friends, colleagues and family. First they don’t understand. Like what are you talking about? I’m sure some of them still don’t understand. Then they think oh that sucks for you. And they move on and they don’t care. Because they are not affected by it. Now a days everyone has an OLED screen and they can use with out problems. Well at least it’s not a problem like the community here on this forum. I haven’t met anyone with this problem yet. Just one girl last year on vacation. She bought a new Samsung and had eyestrain since. I explained PWm and showed her some videos. I don’t know if she still used her Samsung.

Honestly I think a lot more people are affected by this than reported, they just don't connect their symptoms to their phones. I didn't figure it out for 10 years, I started getting eyestrain and headaches with my very first OLED phone back in 2011(Sansung S2) but I didn't even know about PWM until a couple years ago after reading about it in this thread.
 
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