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MICHAELSD

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Jul 13, 2008
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I think the new regulations will require < 0.4 whereas the lower nits on the 15 are clear up at whole number 4.0. That would be a pretty incredible improvement if there’s any merit to it.
Right, that sounds like a 10x improvement if accurate. I couldn’t find much information about the regulation and how it pertains to smartphones, but the EU has sought to create regulations around flickering lights in recent years.

If we are set to see a tenfold or better improvement on iPhone 16, even if we have to import a European model, then all other flickering iPhones have become irrelevant.
 
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MICHAELSD

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A few months ago @from reddit the_top_g told us about SVM, an indicator to measure how good a screen was to the eyes, although it was not a definitive indicator, or the only one that should be used. But researching on the topic on Chinese websites, I have found countless posts about phones from Xiaomi, Vivo, iQOO and several companies that are making a huge emphasis on eye protection, and thousands of comments on those posts, the public there gives a lot of importance to this topic. In the image (you can translate it) they explain everything perfectly, but my level of Chinese is not high enough to summarize everything for you 😂 I invite you all to translate the image, and you will be able to see how, at least in China, it seems that they do care about these issues.

It also explains that by September 2024 the European Union will require a SVM of < 0.4, so the next iPhone I imagine will have to comply with this.


Regarding SVM: https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/160v5ry/_/k2aro2l
The video that explains SVM well (subtitles):

And some posts on Weibo (very recent), you can automatically translate the page and for the images that have relevant information use some translator or Google Lens:




(Sorry for having put so many links, but it is really worthwhile to take a look at all the information).
This would be incredible news that may, however, be too good to be true.

It sounds like this applies to lighting sources specifically, and it doesn’t seem to include displays which pose the same hazards.

 

Heman87

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2022
184
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"..It also explains that by September 2024 the European Union will require a SVM of < 0.4, so the next iPhone I imagine will have to comply with this."

This is the first time that i read about this. Has someone before read about that or has a source for this?
It sounds to good to be true. I kind of lost all hopes in Apple/ Samsung. Because Samsung just released the S24. Is that screen a SVM of < 0.4?
 

MICHAELSD

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Jul 13, 2008
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It sounds to good to be true. I kind of lost all hopes in Apple/ Samsung. Because Samsung just released the S24. Is that screen a SVM of < 0.4?
It’s too soon now if the regulations are accurate, as I’m sure they would probably only apply to new devices and they could push a firmware update if necessary. Have we figured out if this only applies to lighting or if displays will fall under it as well? I didn’t see displays explicitly mentioned in the non-comprehensive info I’ve found.
 

kerplunknet

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
1,885
It sounds to good to be true. I kind of lost all hopes in Apple/ Samsung. Because Samsung just released the S24. Is that screen a SVM of < 0.4?
In the graph posted earlier, "iPhone 15" already complies with < 0.4 SVM for brightness levels between 100% and ~40%.

In other words, don't get your hopes up -- this isn't going to change anything.
 
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251920

macrumors member
Sep 17, 2008
86
3
On the new Samsung S24 Ultra, the PWM varies from 16.9%@100% brightness, to 35%@almost 0 brightnes. On the iPhone 15 Pro/Pro Max the % goes from 12%@100%, to 34%@close to 0% brightness.
 

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from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
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Hi guys. It has been a while.

I thought I will stop by for a brief moment to update on the current development of the flickering phenomenon.

1)
Regarding SVM ~ Yes, it is heading in the right direction as there is now a standard we can use to determine which screen is safer. Chinese manufacturers are working hard to get their flicker measurement within the 0.4 limits.

However, SVM is developed to target specifically consumers with lesser sensitivity to flicker in mind. While SVM did defended itself that it did factored in those that were more sensitive to flicker, they were still only targeting only the "more sensitive individuals" among the less the sensitive crowd. Thus those that were more sensitive to flicker have been excluded from the study.

Having said the above, a new flicker measurement standard has been developed and is currently pending submission (Based on what I last checked a few months ago). This newly proposed flicker measurement, called "PAVM" (Phantom Array Visibility Measure), aims the address the above.

Thus please keep a lookout for PAVM in the coming years.

2)
To my knowledge, the safest OLED smartphone on the market right now is the China exclusive Redmi K70 pro, and with latest firmware version update of dec 2023. The Redmi 70 pro is among the few smartphones to have PWM 3840 hertz. However, as with many higher frequency OLED smartphone panel on the market, many manufacturers attempted to use any higher frequency as a mere number game to assure the sensitive group consumers.

Typically, they would introduce the following disadvantages in return for higher frequency:

1) Higher modulation depth %
2) Higher brighter dips difference between each refresh rate interval
3) shorter duty cycle (meaning longer screen off flicker duration time per hertz)

Hence their advertised higher frequencies were not really effective in addressing eyestrain/ headache triggers.

Returning back to the Redmi K70 pro; According to Xiaomi, the dec 2023 update has resulted in the device to have a record breaking of (within) SVM 0.1 low.

IMG-20231215-WA00091.jpg


Based on other sources test, their claim appears to be valid.

SVM for k70 pro.png


While under 60 hertz, it was able to hit below SVM 0.1.
Under 120 hertz, it was even able to hit a record breaking of SVM 0.05.

I believe this number of SVM 0.05 is significantly safer than even LG OLED TV*.

*(meaning OLED tv with a small brightness dip)

However, a problem remains.

According to the chart findings, SVM 0.05 can only be achieved only if screen brightness is above 70 nits (Not brightness %. For this was explicitly mentioned by the original graph uploader).

The above presents a challenge (for me as well) for I mostly use my screen indoors at a comfortable 35 nits. According to the chart, I will be stucked with a higher SVM 0.4. This is not favorable for individuals like me.


3)
Chronic migraine sufferers triggered from OLED flickers may not be able to take advantage of any given value reference as of now. That is because most studies have explicitly excluded these group from the study. While it is true that we may be able to use frequency as a guide to determine if it is safe, most screen today may contain up to 3 different frequencies running simultaneous.

For instance, a panel could have the following setup in the display driver:

100 khz ultra high frequency flicker
120 hz hertz lower frequency flicker

Should a manufacturer decides to put a brightness dip within of every 120 hertz, a migraine sufferer will still get a migraine from it. Despite the presenece of a 100 khz flicker.

In another scenario:

There are two panels (giving an extreme example for illustration) with the exact modulation depth %, as the following;

1) 2.8 khz with 95% duty cycle
2) 50 khz with 10% duty cycle

Surely, the average joe will take option 2, 50 khz. For we learned that "the higher numbers, the merrier it is". However, in reality it is not completely the case.

A 2.8 khz with 95% duty cycle has a significantly easier task of closing the 5% screen "off" gap at every hertz, compared to a 50 khz that have to close off 90% screen off gap. The harder the task is for the display driver, the more likely the screen will have undesirable noise and ripples produced. It will really have to depend on how well a manufacturer optimise the ultra-high frequency.

Thus, as a migraine sufferer, the best option right now is to look for a high frequency panel (Preferably above 40khz. *Note: every single man-made lightsource flicker subtly to an extend) of the flicker graph itself and look for any abnormal subtle brightness dips. The brightness dip is typically a telltale of a lower frequency flicker lurking behind the (seemingly safe) ultra-high high frequency.

Next, look out for inconsistent noise patterns or heavy noises.
 
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DJTaurus

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Jan 31, 2012
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Anyone in here who went from 11 to se3 and see real improvements in WiFi speed, cellular and signal strength ?
 

kerplunknet

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
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Anyone in here who went from 11 to se3 and see real improvements in WiFi speed, cellular and signal strength ?
Yes, absolutely. iPhone 11 doesn't have any of the 5G bands. 5G is a bit complex, but in summary, it introduces new cellular bands from low to mid to high. iPhone SE (2022) doesn't support mmWave (high bands), but it does support everything else, including mid-bands, which are very important. In summary, if you normally see 40 Mbps downloads, you'll see 300 Mbps downloads with iPhone SE 3 and latency will be lower. You'll also experience less congestion on the towers. If you live in a remote place where the cellular carriers haven't upgraded towers, you won't see any difference.
 
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MICHAELSD

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Jul 13, 2008
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Should we also be concerned about the otherwise incredible Apple Vision Pro down the line? Apple advises certain customers to exert caution, including those with “migraines and chronic headaches.”


Micro-LED likely flickers as well, and its rate will give us a preview for when it comes to iPhone.

In other words, we could be doomed to a future of no flagship Apple products.
 
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MICHAELSD

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Jul 13, 2008
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FYI - I returned iPhone 15 Plus after putting some deliberation and consideration into keeping it.

There were simply too many mental gymnastics in order to do an extended task as simple as watching a video, and it feels irresponsible to keep a device that causes any degree of headache response. However, it was the first time I noted a noticeable improvement.

We realistically need an OLED iPhone that’s as comfortable as an iPhone SE. Apple has a lot of work to do on flickering and hopefully there are better standards, like those being discussed in this thread, implemented in the near future.
 
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The.Glorious.Son

macrumors 68000
Sep 28, 2015
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FYI - I returned iPhone 15 Plus after putting some deliberation and consideration into keeping it.

There were simply too many mental gymnastics in order to do an extended task as simple as watching a video, and it feels irresponsible to keep a device that causes any degree of headache response. However, it was the first time I noted a noticeable improvement.

We realistically need an OLED iPhone that’s as comfortable as an iPhone SE. Apple has a lot of work to do on flickering and hopefully there are better standards, like those being discussed in this thread, implemented in the near future.
Sorry it didn’t work out my friend. I think we had quite similar experiences but with different phones. It’s interesting, I stumbled upon a PWM thread in an apple forum and while there were many people talking just like us, I was surprised to see how heavily moderated it is. If your post comes off even slightly as a rant, it will either be reworded by a moderator or removed completely. I wonder why that is.
 

DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
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2 days with iPhone SE 3. It’s f awesome. I don’t know why I stayed so many years with the 11. All my apps now work super fast. Specially notes app where i had lag and it was very difficult to use it. I get very quickly used to the smaller screen and smaller keyboard. Seriously I don’t have anything major to complain….maybe a little bit crisper text.
 

Mikeyt1818

macrumors member
Apr 26, 2020
49
57
Coral Springs, Florida
The more I use se the more I love it. Better signal, speeds and even speakers than 11. The one hand experience is unmatched.
I feel the same way. For me it is all about one handed use and I still say it feels more comfortable than the iPhone 12 mini that I previously had. I wish Apple would keep this form factor instead of going to the iPhone 14 chassis. The SE 3 without touch ID and a notch would be fine for me as the next SE. Sadly that will not happen but I will keep this one for at least 2-3 more years. Enjoy!
 

badger1212

macrumors regular
Oct 10, 2016
107
140
The more I use se the more I love it. Better signal, speeds and even speakers than 11. The one hand experience is unmatched.
Does the smaller screen and battery not bother you in the SE? I’ve gone back to an 11 but have felt slight eye discomfort but I don’t know whether that is residual from using a 15 PM for 3 weeks.
 

DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
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Does the smaller screen and battery not bother you in the SE? I’ve gone back to an 11 but have felt slight eye discomfort but I don’t know whether that is residual from using a 15 PM for 3 weeks.
It’s weird but I can’t explain it. In the past i used 12 and 13 mini and their small screens bothered me more than the se. To me the main con of se’s screen is the low res of text. 11 has a cleaner experience. Also the besels…. they are irritating sometimes in the way apps look not that they bother me. What i do is having increased the text letters of iOS 2 points up and on the safari i use 115% zoom.

I can’t compare batteries directly. My 11 was at 87%…. my new se now at 100% is around 20% more lasting. But yeah battery is not obviously at 15,15 pro,15 pro max levels i also tried this year….. around 30-50% worse.

But look. I can’t go back to 11. I can’t stand it’s cpu anymore. Now i ve got a pretty smooth ride.

Also to add round body’s of se and 11 to me are more ergonomic than the squared one of latest iPhones. A lighter iPhone 11 body in the next se would be best form factor ever.
 

Mikeyt1818

macrumors member
Apr 26, 2020
49
57
Coral Springs, Florida
It’s weird but I can’t explain it. In the past i used 12 and 13 mini and their small screens bothered me more than the se. To me the main con of se’s screen is the low res of text. 11 has a cleaner experience. Also the besels…. they are irritating sometimes in the way apps look not that they bother me. What i do is having increased the text letters of iOS 2 points up and on the safari i use 115% zoom.

I can’t compare batteries directly. My 11 was at 87%…. my new se now at 100% is around 20% more lasting. But yeah battery is not obviously at 15,15 pro,15 pro max levels i also tried this year….. around 30-50% worse.

But look. I can’t go back to 11. I can’t stand it’s cpu anymore. Now i ve got a pretty smooth ride.

Also to add round body’s of se and 11 to me are more ergonomic than the squared one of latest iPhones. A lighter iPhone 11 body in the next se would be best form factor ever.
You are correct about the round frame of the SE. The mini was not so comfortable to hold. The smooth and round frame makes the one handed use an even bigger pleasure on the SE. And yes, I prefer the rounded shape of the 11. For me the XS was amazing to hold as it was rounded and smaller than the 11. I hope Apple will go back to that shape one day.
 
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DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
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1,391
Ok guys sth weird is happening. 3rd day with iPhone SE and wake up with dry eyes and i also got light headache and light nausea. What the f is going on ????? It’s almost an OLED feeling right now. I am pissed.
 

Abiyork

macrumors regular
Sep 16, 2012
159
177
Ok guys sth weird is happening. 3rd day with iPhone SE and wake up with dry eyes and i also got light headache and light nausea. What the f is going on ????? It’s almost an OLED feeling right now. I am pissed.

Its not 100% the screen. A few of us felt side effects with the iphone 11 when upgraded to IOS17.

I am now stuck on Iphone 11 however my works phone is being upgraded this week from an iphone 8 to SE. I will use it sparingly and see how I react.
 
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