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du57in

macrumors regular
Sep 7, 2022
129
220
Also, NBC has started adding more and more info on PWM to its reviews. Look at this Pixel 9 review from October 23:


I hope Marcus there does more reviews in the future.
 

from reddit the_top_g

macrumors member
Sep 23, 2023
73
267
OnePlus 13 teaser touts most advanced Android flagship display to date



🤔

Since this is translated from the marketing material, @from reddit the_top_g do you think this is an accurate translation?
It is quite accurate but I wouldn't call them "true DC dimming" per se as it would be a far stretch.

True DC dimming (or hardware DC dimming) is completely different from DC-like Dimming (as advertised in the poster). DC-like dimming utilize software algorithms to reduce flicker's screen off time, and pulse duration time to a minimum.

Thus calling it "True • DC-like dimming"(in Oneplus 13) or "Hardware equivalent DC-like dimming" (in Realme GT7 pro) may seem puzzling on first glance. It would be strange how both could co-exist. I would elaborate on this later.

Personally, I agree with above notebookcheck author's opinion on BOE's Q10 panel. BOE x2 panel that would be used Oneplus 13 does not suggest to me it has brought substantial hardware improvements (to mitigate eyestrain). It looks to use software algorthms to further maximize optimisation of eyestrain reduction.

BOE Q10 (which will feature on IQOO 13) however, is intriguing to me. It looks to be loosely inspired from a early proposal dimming solution for microLED, which its objective is to mitigate flicker. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "testing the water" prototype of microLEDs.

Anyway, for the purpose of manufacturers' advertising marketing perceptive and what it actually meant for us consumers, I spent quite a few hours earlier drafting the below illustration.

It consists of a spectrum; where least eyestrain is on the left, and most problematic on the right.

Disclaimer that the below were based on my empirical observation and data.

1730091016024.png


Allow me to elaborate on the above. In terms of PWM, we started with commerical displays that were mostly used under sheltered areas.(Illustration: orange zone) They were mostly used for quick glance or simply operation of machinery, doors etc. For intense reading, True DC dimming (Illustration: extreme left white zone) was used.

Then, as manufacturers began to push for higher readabiliity under direct sunlight, they pushed this brightness amount to extremely high lux. This was also where the brightness decay significantly increased from 40 luxs. As True DC dimming tend to consume more energy on higher brightness, PWM naturally became preferred dimming method. It was likely here where more people are being affected by PWM than ever before. (Illustration: extreme right red zone).

With more users becoming more vocal about health concerns, manufacturers introduced different solutions to attempt this above. Hence from where we were at ~ the extreme right, companies are moving closer towards left.

In short; think of the advertised "True DC-like Dimming" as a midpoint between Hardware / True DC dimming and DC-like dimming.

I don't know where would their upcoming panels be at in my above illustration scale. I would imagine it being at my scale's lime green area zone above.

I believe we can find out through test, and only pulse duration timing and and amount of amplitude brightness drop are the two most reliable measurement to PWM / flicker.
 
Last edited:

PwmMen

macrumors regular
Oct 2, 2021
207
534
I am annoyed. After the iPhone 16 Pro worked without problems for days,
I have problems with my eyes and neck for the last 2 days. I reset it directly.
Will no longer use OLED phone, and until Micro LED stays with an iPhone SE 2022.
I can use this perfectly without having to worry. I have my nose full!
 
Last edited:

pwm away

macrumors regular
Sep 17, 2022
131
263
Australia
Update on my iPhone 16 experience:

Returned it on the weekend.

Overall, this felt the best of all OLED iPhones so far. I was able to use it for longer periods without significant issues. It didn't seem to cause similar problems as the previous ones. The 15 was already better for me then, and the 16 feels a bit better still.

Nonetheless, it still gave me some dry eyes, and some slight eye pain. Comparing spending the same amount of screen time with my SE 2022 highlighted the differences to me.
There was also an additional, vague feeling of "something not right".

The above, in addition to:

  1. The OLED screen just not looking great to me, with regards to its colours
  2. The 16 not really providing me with significant differences in day to day (I would prefer a larger screen, but otherwise, camera isn't that big of a factor for me, and Apple Intelligence is not here yet)
  3. Running around with a almost USD $1k piece of technology that creates slight health problems

Made me decide to return. I'll stick to the SE 2022 for now, or maybe get a 11 for a bigger screen.

I'll also keep an eye out on some of those new Androids with their BOE screens.
I'm considering starting an Android migration, perhaps in parallel, so that I'm not stuck in the Apple ecosystem, if this situation doesn't get resolved with the next phones.
 

WPIT

macrumors newbie
Oct 28, 2024
5
5
I own the latest generation of the iPhone 11 without the charger in the box. This is my second iPhone 11. I just upgraded to iOS 18.0.1 and the display quality got better. It is gorgeous. I also have the iPhone 14, which is nothing compared to the iPhone 11 in terms of display quality. I still don’t understand why Apple is using OLED in the first place since Liquid Retina is simply amazing in picture quality and displaying photos.
 

karinatwork

macrumors 6502
Mar 2, 2009
293
325
British Columbia, Canada
So I went to the Apple Store on the weekend and filmed all 4 phones. 16, 16 Max, 16 Pro, 16 Pro Max. The 16 and 16 Max were bad, the 16 Pro Max was ok and the 16 Pro was perfect. I'm watching for flickering that you can perceive with the slow motion camera of my other iPhone (15 Pro) which I have been using for almost a year without issues. I don't know about the Notebookcheck PWM tests and stuff, but my personal anecdotal findings have been pretty consistent with my ability to use or not use a phone. (Tried to mark which is which, but it's kinda difficult when you didn't make notes! LOL!)

16 Pro


16


16 Pro Max


16 Max
 

WPIT

macrumors newbie
Oct 28, 2024
5
5
I have the iPhone 11 with zero issues. I have the iPhone 14 in which my eyes cannot seem to focus on the text. My wife has the iPhone 13, which seems easier on the eyes. What do you think should be my best option: an iPhone 16, or an iPhone 16 Pro?
 

DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
1,774
1,390
So I went to the Apple Store on the weekend and filmed all 4 phones. 16, 16 Max, 16 Pro, 16 Pro Max. The 16 and 16 Max were bad, the 16 Pro Max was ok and the 16 Pro was perfect. I'm watching for flickering that you can perceive with the slow motion camera of my other iPhone (15 Pro) which I have been using for almost a year without issues. I don't know about the Notebookcheck PWM tests and stuff, but my personal anecdotal findings have been pretty consistent with my ability to use or not use a phone. (Tried to mark which is which, but it's kinda difficult when you didn't make notes! LOL!)

16 Pro
View attachment 2443103

16
View attachment 2443104

16 Pro Max
View attachment 2443105

16 Max
View attachment 2443106
How your 15 pro stands up to 16 pro ? Similar or better results ?
 

Karut

macrumors newbie
Aug 4, 2022
10
6
It is quite accurate but I wouldn't call them "true DC dimming" per se as it would be a far stretch.

True DC dimming (or hardware DC dimming) is completely different from DC-like Dimming (as advertised in the poster). DC-like dimming utilize software algorithms to reduce flicker's screen off time, and pulse duration time to a minimum.

Thus calling it "True • DC-like dimming"(in Oneplus 13) or "Hardware equivalent DC-like dimming" (in Realme GT7 pro) may seem puzzling on first glance. It would be strange how both could co-exist. I would elaborate on this later.

Personally, I agree with above notebookcheck author's opinion on BOE's Q10 panel. BOE x2 panel that would be used Oneplus 13 does not suggest to me it has brought substantial hardware improvements (to mitigate eyestrain). It looks to use software algorthms to further maximize optimisation of eyestrain reduction.

BOE Q10 (which will feature on IQOO 13) however, is intriguing to me. It looks to be loosely inspired from a early proposal dimming solution for microLED, which its objective is to mitigate flicker. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "testing the water" prototype of microLEDs.

Anyway, for the purpose of manufacturers' advertising marketing perceptive and what it actually meant for us consumers, I spent quite a few hours earlier drafting the below illustration.

It consists of a spectrum; where least eyestrain is on the left, and most problematic on the right.

Disclaimer that the below were based on my empirical observation and data.

View attachment 2442763

Allow me to elaborate on the above. In terms of PWM, we started with commerical displays that were mostly used under sheltered areas.(Illustration: orange zone) They were mostly used for quick glance or simply operation of machinery, doors etc. For intense reading, True DC dimming (Illustration: extreme left white zone) was used.

Then, as manufacturers began to push for higher readabiliity under direct sunlight, they pushed this brightness amount to extremely high lux. This was also where the brightness decay significantly increased from 40 luxs. As True DC dimming tend to consume more energy on higher brightness, PWM naturally became preferred dimming method. It was likely here where more people are being affected by PWM than ever before. (Illustration: extreme right red zone).

With more users becoming more vocal about health concerns, manufacturers introduced different solutions to attempt this above. Hence from where we were at ~ the extreme right, companies are moving closer towards left.

In short; think of the advertised "True DC-like Dimming" as a midpoint between Hardware / True DC dimming and DC-like dimming.

I don't know where would their upcoming panels be at in my above illustration scale. I would imagine it being at my scale's lime green area zone above.

I believe we can find out through test, and only pulse duration timing and and amount of amplitude brightness drop are the two most reliable measurement to PWM / flicker.
How would the Xiaomi 14T Pro rate on this scale?
 

The.Glorious.Son

macrumors 68000
Sep 28, 2015
1,721
3,642
Chicago, IL
I own the latest generation of the iPhone 11 without the charger in the box. This is my second iPhone 11. I just upgraded to iOS 18.0.1 and the display quality got better. It is gorgeous. I also have the iPhone 14, which is nothing compared to the iPhone 11 in terms of display quality. I still don’t understand why Apple is using OLED in the first place since Liquid Retina is simply amazing in picture quality and displaying photos.
The issue, if you want to call it that, is your take is likely in the minority. I think if you posed the question to the greater forum as to preference between OLED and LCD it would overwhelmingly be OLED. Not saying that it's right or wrong, also not saying anyone should care what another thinks/values, but I do think Apple understood the industry standard became OLED and not making the switch would be detrimental to sales.
 

The.Glorious.Son

macrumors 68000
Sep 28, 2015
1,721
3,642
Chicago, IL
I have the iPhone 11 with zero issues. I have the iPhone 14 in which my eyes cannot seem to focus on the text. My wife has the iPhone 13, which seems easier on the eyes. What do you think should be my best option: an iPhone 16, or an iPhone 16 Pro?
I think the best advice anyone can give you is to decide which phone you would prefer (if PWM didn't exist) and start there. Having been active in this thread this thread nearly 7 years now, the one thing we actually can say is that every phone, every screen, seems to affect each person differently.
 

du57in

macrumors regular
Sep 7, 2022
129
220
The issue, if you want to call it that, is your take is likely in the minority. I think if you posed the question to the greater forum as to preference between OLED and LCD it would overwhelmingly be OLED. Not saying that it's right or wrong, also not saying anyone should care what another thinks/values, but I do think Apple understood the industry standard became OLED and not making the switch would be detrimental to sales.
See, I think people just want what’s new and shiny and what companies tell them they want. If you took an iPhone 11 to a public place and showing just the display, compared it against a 16 telling everyone the 11 was a brand new type of display that was Apple Retina True to Life Color it would get eaten up. Same reason why Apple keeps making 60hz displays. Not enough companies are saying that’s not good enough and people don’t care.
 

MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,484
3,494
NJ
So I went to the Apple Store on the weekend and filmed all 4 phones. 16, 16 Max, 16 Pro, 16 Pro Max. The 16 and 16 Max were bad, the 16 Pro Max was ok and the 16 Pro was perfect. I'm watching for flickering that you can perceive with the slow motion camera of my other iPhone (15 Pro) which I have been using for almost a year without issues. I don't know about the Notebookcheck PWM tests and stuff, but my personal anecdotal findings have been pretty consistent with my ability to use or not use a phone. (Tried to mark which is which, but it's kinda difficult when you didn't make notes! LOL!)

16 Pro
View attachment 2443103

16
View attachment 2443104

16 Pro Max
View attachment 2443105

16 Max
View attachment 2443106
I do think I naturally gravitate towards the devices with the better implementations: that’s how sensitive I am. The display on iPhone 13 mini was perhaps the best-looking to me of any OLED iPhone, and that may just be because the modulations were lower. My eyes/head still want modulations on par with an LCD and no flickering.

iPhone 16 Pro is the one for me this generation, should I bother to try another device that will most likely get returned.
 

karinatwork

macrumors 6502
Mar 2, 2009
293
325
British Columbia, Canada
I do think I naturally gravitate towards the devices with the better implementations: that’s how sensitive I am. The display on iPhone 13 mini was perhaps the best-looking to me of any OLED iPhone, and that may just be because the modulations were lower. My eyes/head still want modulations on par with an LCD and no flickering.

iPhone 16 Pro is the one for me this generation, should I bother to try another device that will most likely get returned.
If you do, wait until the extended return window.
 
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MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,484
3,494
NJ
If you do, wait until the extended return window.
It is odd because I’m not sure I’m as bothered: I tried iPhone 15 Pro at launch and boxed it up within a week. I then tried iPhone 15 Plus during the holiday return window and while it was better and perhaps the best of any modern iPhone I still found myself using my iPhone SE to the point I put very few hours of use on iPhone 15 Plus.
 

Evilxardas

macrumors member
Dec 5, 2019
57
49
Sorry for the delay but I needed a week to recover from the headache caused by the Ford Focus.

Last night I tried 16P but after 20 minutes I already had a migraine. So I am sending it back and will try the Pixel 9 around Christmas.

Phones ok for me:
Iphone X and Pixel 4A

Phones not ok for me:
Iphone 14P, 15 and 16P
 

jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
2,479
3,306
UK
I own the latest generation of the iPhone 11 without the charger in the box. This is my second iPhone 11. I just upgraded to iOS 18.0.1 and the display quality got better. It is gorgeous. I also have the iPhone 14, which is nothing compared to the iPhone 11 in terms of display quality. I still don’t understand why Apple is using OLED in the first place since Liquid Retina is simply amazing in picture quality and displaying photos.
So you can use OLED iphone if you have the 14? That's is to say, your not PWM/dithering sensitive?

I ask because I've kept my iPhone 11 on iOS 16.7.2 after reading people with eye sensitivity having issues with iOS 17 and how 18. I think I will need to upgrade sooner rather than later but if iOS 18 is OK now....
 

ocean10

macrumors member
Sep 11, 2023
43
45
So you can use OLED iphone if you have the 14? That's is to say, your not PWM/dithering sensitive?

I ask because I've kept my iPhone 11 on iOS 16.7.2 after reading people with eye sensitivity having issues with iOS 17 and how 18. I think I will need to upgrade sooner rather than later but if iOS 18 is OK now....
I have a SE3 so might not be the same but I can use the phone on 16.1.1 indefinitely. On 16.3 I get symptoms pretty quickly (though not quite the same as the symptoms I get immediately with OLED Apple phones). I've not been able to test the versions between 16.1.1 and 16.3 so not sure exactly where the change began. But being that you are on 16.7.2 you might have already made it through whatever change happened that made even previously good LCD screens unusable for many of us in the iOS 16 series (and beyond).
 
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