Green Button - Maximize, Not Full Screen

[azpc]

Flat Five,

Thanks for your response. Naturally, I have some issues with it. (Just like you have with mine.)

The very first message in this thread is by BladeRunner2000. This message contained the original feature request. I did not write this request but I was delighted to see the request.

I have read your postings and I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Sorry.

As a teacher I have to deal with this issue nearly every day. That is why I have written in support of the Maximize option.

Why is is not irrelevant? Please read these comments:

Many apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Frequently 40% of functionality is in the pull down menus.

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

That is why these questions frequently occur:

- "Where did my menu bar and Dock go?"
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"

A maximize setting allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock with a mouse. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

Comments from User posts on the web:


"Mac has many features that beat Windows, but this isn’t one of them. Maybe Apple could allow users to change the zoom-button settings in preferences according to the desires of the user.

"I use Mac OS X daily. And I love it. But I grew up on Windows, and find myself always wanting to truly maximize (without going into full screen mode, which is something else entirely)."

"One very, very common question/complaint from folks who have recently switched from Windows to Mac is the green button. It’s a totally valid question – the resizing behavior has always annoyed me too, and I made the switch years ago."

"My Mom is having the same issue with her shiny new iMac. Apple needs to give the user some options so they can set the default behavior."

"I hope there’s a command line preference that can be changed to toggle this behavior. I dislike full screen mode and would rather the default action is to maximize the window."

"Would love to see a defaults setting for this!"

"I realize that many former/current Windows users would prefer the green button maximize the window when clicked and many longtime Mac users would prefer the green button zoom the window. So how do you solve an issue where one person wants the behavior one way and another wants the behavior to do something different? Preferences.

Preferences more importantly allows users can choose what they prefer, be happy and not go griping on blogs about X Things They Hate About Using OS X."

"Options should be given to users. USERS should decide what to use."

"I'd go for switch set by user."

"I think that users should be able to change green-button behavior."

Some may not understand why many users want a maximize option. That is fine.

What needs to be understood is this:

First, many Mac users passionately want a Maximize option.

Second, a Maximize option will not change your method of operation in any way. No one loses by having a Maximize option.

Take Care.

 

[azpc]

I can't believe there's 11 pages for this. option-clik the green button or double-click the title bar. ooooooooh big deal.

Actually we are asking for a new feature that is not currently in OSX. It may not be a big issue with you, great!

However, as a teacher I know it is a big issue with many Mac users.

The only thing being requested is a Maximize option. This option in no way would change how you interact with your Mac. It would only allow users to change the default setting if they choose.

Two possible solutions have been discussed on this thread. Either option would be acceptable.

1. "Always Show Menu Bar and Dock option" by HOJX

2. "Choose Your Maximize" by DustyKiddo

Take Care and Enjoy your Mac!

 

[Shirasaki]

Thanks for your response. Naturally, I have some issues with it. (Just like you have with mine.)

The very first message in this thread is by BladeRunner2000. This message contained the original feature request. I did not write this request but I was delighted to see the request.

I have read your postings and I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Sorry.

As a teacher I have to deal with this issue nearly every day. That is why I have written in support of the Maximize option.

Why is is not irrelevant? Please read these comments:

Many apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Frequently 40% of functionality is in the pull down menus.

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

That is why these questions frequently occur:

- "Where did my menu bar and Dock go?"
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"

A maximize setting allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock with a mouse. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

Comments from User posts on the web:


"Mac has many features that beat Windows, but this isn’t one of them. Maybe Apple could allow users to change the zoom-button settings in preferences according to the desires of the user.

"I use Mac OS X daily. And I love it. But I grew up on Windows, and find myself always wanting to truly maximize (without going into full screen mode, which is something else entirely)."

"One very, very common question/complaint from folks who have recently switched from Windows to Mac is the green button. It’s a totally valid question – the resizing behavior has always annoyed me too, and I made the switch years ago."

"My Mom is having the same issue with her shiny new iMac. Apple needs to give the user some options so they can set the default behavior."

"I hope there’s a command line preference that can be changed to toggle this behavior. I dislike full screen mode and would rather the default action is to maximize the window."

"Would love to see a defaults setting for this!"

"I realize that many former/current Windows users would prefer the green button maximize the window when clicked and many longtime Mac users would prefer the green button zoom the window. So how do you solve an issue where one person wants the behavior one way and another wants the behavior to do something different? Preferences.

Preferences more importantly allows users can choose what they prefer, be happy and not go griping on blogs about X Things They Hate About Using OS X."

"Options should be given to users. USERS should decide what to use."

"I'd go for switch set by user."

"I think that users should be able to change green-button behavior."

Some may not understand why many users want a maximize option. That is fine.

What needs to be understood is this:

First, many Mac users passionately want a Maximize option.

Second, a Maximize option will not change your method of operation in any way. No one loses by having a Maximize option.

Take Care.

I would like to give you a hint when replying others posts.

Try quoting even some of others posts you want to reply to help other members tracing back to previous post easily.

And, uh, could I guess that even Apple is still on the way figuring out a proper set of green button behaviour? No need to mention such utilities overriding default behaviour may break or cease working during major system upgrade.

 

[dyn]

As a teacher I have to deal with this issue nearly every day.

You mean "as a user". You are also making the classic mistake of imposing your point of view as the one and only correct view. That isn't true at all. Many users, many different views and different ways of getting the same end result.

Many apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Frequently 40% of functionality is in the pull down menus.

That isn't correct at all. Apps have to follow the HIG and nearly all of them do this and they do this well. This is not Windows where everybody does what they want, it is more controlled. Nearly everything is reachable via some sort of keyboard shortcut. Other items can be used via the mouse/trackpad/tablet or via panels/inspectors. If you want to be really productive you invest in these kind of things and make yourself familiar with the various options. Using the keyboard is in general far quicker and more out of the way than using the mouse/trackpad/tablet. It also reduces RSI.

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

Again, learn to use the keyboard. You can use Mission Control and the app switcher for these things. Both are accessible via key combos (option-tab for the app switcher and the dedicated Mission Control key that doubles as F3).

That is why these questions frequently occur:

These question occur due to lack of knowledge, not due to a bad workflow.

A maximize setting allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

No not in the examples you gave. In your examples the problem isn't not having the setting but lack of knowledge of things like keyboard shortcuts and the use of the app switcher. You don't solve that by putting more settings into the system preferences.

The other examples you gave show exactly what I meant with switchers from Windows/Linux. They are used how those systems work. OS X is quite different in a lot of areas. It's best to let go of the knowledge you gained on those other platforms and open yourself up for the new platform.

Second, a Maximize option will not change your method of operation in any way. No one loses by having a Maximize option.

Actually you do. You have a setting with 3 options. There has to be a default which can be none of them or one of them. Whatever you choose people will argue about this. Again, having the option doesn't solve any of the actual problems that are in the examples you gave. The problem is lack of knowledge, not knowing how to do things. You don't fix that with putting another setting in system preferences, you fix it by gaining knowledge, by education. Something a teacher should know...

The more options you put in a system the more people are lost in settings and thus the less user friendly the system is. Just because people don't understand a certain feature or are used to some other system doesn't mean we should compromise user friendliness of the system itself. If you want to use it like the other system, use the other system. It seems that the other system does exactly what you want.

Btw, tone down the amount of formatting, it greatly reduces the readability of your posts. And try to learn something instead of telling others. There are many people here who have more knowledge on the subject than you do (it's their daily job for example).

 

[HenryDJP]

Not a solution.

It requires an extra click to view the options of making it maximize. The RIGHT solution is to click the green button ONCE and have it expand just like it does in MS Windows.

Does Apple have any plans to make this an option in system preferences to make the green button switch between that multitasking debacle known as 'full screen' and make it work PROPERLY like it did before and on other operating systems?

So the real truth is you just want Mac OS to behave like Windows. You said the Mac did it "PROPERLY" before. Based on what you're complaining about, that's not true at all. All the Mac ever did is exact what happens when you double-click the title bar. It maximizes to show all available content.

Full screen functionality KILLS any ability to multitask, many of us switch between photoshop, indesign, illustrator, etc.

Full Screen has never been a hinderance for me. I may not use it often but it certainly isn't a hinderance.

Holding alt/option on the keyboard is not a solution, I shouldnt have to play boxing with the keyboard on my other hand just to make OS X function the way it should.

Interesting. You want Mac OS to behave like Windows but you want the simplicity of the Mac at the same time. People tend to jump leaps and bounds to get Windows functioning to suit their needs. A couple of clicks on the Mac shouldn't be so much drama to you.

It requires an extra click to view the options of making it maximize. The RIGHT solution is to click the green button ONCE and have it expand just like it does in MS Windows.

That's YOUR "right solution", not everyone else's. You should be using Windows if you want Windows behavior. Especially if you feel Windows' behavior is the "RIGHT" way.[/QUOTE]

 

[jerwin]

Perhaps it's been addressed in this thread already, but of the people who have multiple monitors, how many of you prefer "full screen"?

Personally, I have two desktops of differing sizes, so it would be nice to be able to resize a window that's too larger for its screen--as one can do in Wind..-- in most Window Managers. Now I double click the title bar (after switching the defined behavior from "minimize"-- a nonuseful redundancy-- to "zoom")

Anyway, full screen is not all that useful to me. Better in 10.10 than the old behavior of disabling the secondary monitor, but not all that thrilling either.

 

[bladerunner2000]

So the real truth is you just want Mac OS to behave like Windows. You said the Mac did it "PROPERLY" before. Based on what you're complaining about, that's not true at all. All the Mac ever did is exact what happens when you double-click the title bar. It maximizes to show all available content.

False and exaggerating.

I want windows in Mac OS to behave more like they do in Windows. This is a specific request, not a generalization as you imply.

Full Screen has never been a hinderance for me. I may not use it often but it certainly isn't a hinderance.

That's nice, but I don't care.

Interesting. You want Mac OS to behave like Windows but you want the simplicity of the Mac at the same time. People tend to jump leaps and bounds to get Windows functioning to suit their needs. A couple of clicks on the Mac shouldn't be so much drama to you.

Read my comment above.

A lot of people, whom you've conveniently ignored in this thread, are having the same problem as I am with the green button.

That's YOUR "right solution", not everyone else's. You should be using Windows if you want Windows behavior. Especially if you feel Windows' behavior is the "RIGHT" way.

If you didn't object to the green buttons behaviour in OS X 10.9 and earlier versions, then you have no reason to object to the VALID complaints made by me and the others in this thread. Apple has a history of revising things only for the worse and then reverting back. Having said that, if the complaints in this thread are calling for an option to change the behaviour of windows or AT LEAST re-open the API for 3rd party developers, why is it then that you have make such sour response to our requests if the changes will NEVER affect your use of OS X?

 

[bladerunner2000]

That isn't correct at all. Apps have to follow the HIG and nearly all of them do this and they do this well. This is not Windows where everybody does what they want, it is more controlled. Nearly everything is reachable via some sort of keyboard shortcut. Other items can be used via the mouse/trackpad/tablet or via panels/inspectors. If you want to be really productive you invest in these kind of things and make yourself familiar with the various options. Using the keyboard is in general far quicker and more out of the way than using the mouse/trackpad/tablet. It also reduces RSI.


Again, learn to use the keyboard. You can use Mission Control and the app switcher for these things. Both are accessible via key combos (option-tab for the app switcher and the dedicated Mission Control key that doubles as F3).

Terribly arrogant advice.

Telling others how they should work just is insulting. Most people do NOT know keyboard shortcuts exist and when they do find out, they fail to use them. Even so, no keyboard shortcut does what this thread addresses anyway, so the suggestion is irrelevant.

 

[azpc]

You mean "as a user". You are also making the classic mistake of imposing your point of view as the one and only correct view."

No, that is not correct. I'm not imposing my views on anyone. I'm not teaching students my way or the highway. I'm simply reporting user feedback.

I'm am well aware of the different keyboard options etc. Thank you for taking the time to post them. They may prove useful to others. Very simply many users want the option to set the behavior of the Green Full Screen button.

Quakers82 reported earlier in this forum:

"Having in the last 2 years switched the whole company I work for from Windows to Mac OS with over 200 Macs deployed I can say the only thing that annoys users is the fact the green button does not make a program go full screen WITH the dock still showing. Its my only annoyance too. Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how trainees are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximize does in Windows."

I'm for a Maximize option apparently you are not. An option is not forcing behavior. I'm not advocating that your Mac or work habits be changed at all. Please continue on!

As a teacher I'm simply reporting that many Mac users would be happier and more productive if they had the option to change the default behavior of the Green button.

Take care and thank you for taking the time to post.

 

[flat five]

Furthermore, why do you (and many others in this thread) conveniently ignore the fact that they not only did Apple enforce the tablet view without options but also CLOSED the API for 3rd party developers to adjust the functionality afterwards? If 3rd party apps were capable of modifying it, you would have ZERO reason to complain about there being 'too many options' on an operating system that already lacks option, LMAO. Please explain the bolded though.

how about you explain the bolded part.. as far as i can gather, you went from saying Right Zoom doesn't work on yosemite to this bolded sentence of yours.. can you provide a source for this?

Right Zoom doesn't work because:
http://www.blazingtools.com/right_zoom_mac.html

Dear Right Zoom users, the author of this software is currently unable to continue the project, if you are experienced Mac developer and would like to help to update this free app for Yosemite, please mail us.

 

[flat five]

Flat Five,

Thanks for your response. Naturally, I have some issues with it. (Just like you have with mine.)

yeah.. the issues i have with you are that you're completely ignoring the stuff i post then respond with this long copy/pasted bit over and over.

read my posts.. i'm talking about zooming
nowhere have you seen me say something like "if apple added a preference which allowed the green button to function like the maximize button on windows.. well, that would be suooo stupid and sucky.. hrmffff.. etcetc."

i don't care if that pref is there or not.. i won't use it but it's not going to bother me one bit for the option to be available.

you're arguing back to me about crap i'm not even talking about. not sure what you expect me to say or think about that.

[edit]
oh.. @azpc ..another issue i have with you is that i've asked you a question about 5 times now and you won't answer it.. regarding:

As a teacher I'm simply reporting that many Mac users would be happier and more productive if they had the option to change the default behavior of the Green button.

please explain how being able to push the green button to maximize a window will increase productivity.. explain how having a maximized window increases productivity.
i'm not trying to imply you're dumb (or whatever) for saying that.. i'm asking you to explain to me this productivity gain using a real world example so i can better understand your position/desire for working with maximized windows.

 

[flat five]

double-post
delete please

 

[bladerunner2000]

how about you explain the bolded part.. as far as i can gather, you went from saying Right Zoom doesn't work on yosemite to this bolded sentence of yours.. can you provide a source for this?

Right Zoom doesn't work because:
http://www.blazingtools.com/right_zoom_mac.html

The API is closed. I was told this via email by the developers at Moom, even when I pointed out RightZoom's capabilities in OS X 10.9 and earlier, and it's inability to work in 10.10. I asked them if they could add RightZoom's feature into Moom and they said there's no way around it, Apple is once again being Apple and limiting options.

Nowhere in that link you posted does it explain WHY RightZoom doesn't work, as it simply says they can't get it to work. The API being closed would be a reason WHY they can't get it to work. Duh.

 

[flat five]

The API is closed. I was told this via email by the developers at Moom, even when I pointed out RightZoom's capabilities.

Nowhere in that link you posted does it explain WHY RightZoom doesn't work, as it simply says they can't get it to work. The API being closed would be a reason WHY they can't get it to work. Duh.

what? the link said nobody is working on updating it.. that is WHY it doesn't work.. it doesn't say so-and-so couldn't update it because the API is closed.. it says the author of the utility is unable to continue the project.

show us the email from moom.. if not, your API bit is straight baloney.

 

[bladerunner2000]

what? the link said nobody is working on updating it.. that is WHY it doesn't work.. it doesn't say so-and-so couldn't update it because the API is closed.. it says the author of the utility is unable to continue the project.

show us the email from moom.. if not, your API bit is straight baloney.

Re-read their comment:

Dear Right Zoom users, the author of this software is currently unable to continue the project, if you are experienced Mac developer and would like to help to update this free app for Yosemite, please mail us.

^That doesn't mean that the app CAN or WILL work in Yosemite. It's more likely that it will NOT as the API is closed which is the case as it was confirmed by Moom.

 

[bladerunner2000]

look.. i asked you for a source which backs up the claim "apple has locked the ability for 3rd party devs to modify the button behavior"

you have given zero source.. maybe you believe your own lies/fud/spin but i highly doubt anyone else does.

either retract the statement or post the source.

Conversation with the developer at Moom:

Me: The application is great, but is there ANY plan to fix apple's bonehead implementation of the green button acting as the 'full screen' button and make it maximize like RightZoom, or basically, windows maximize the same way they do in MS Windows?

Moom: We can't, unfortunately -- the code to make it behave the "right" way belongs to Apple, and they don't let us use it.

Me: Is that some kind of restriction based on agreements/EULA or more along the lines of Apple having made it literally impossible no matter what?

Moom: A bit of both -- there's no public API we can legally use (and we're in the App Store). But even looking at the private APIs, it's basically impossible (otherwise, somebody would have done it by now and released it outside the App Store, and as far as I know, nobody has.)

LOL, even the guys at Moom agree that Apple's implementation is wrong as he replied with 'the code to make it behave the "right" way'. Hahaha.

Ps. I don't appreciate being called a liar.

 

[flat five]

Conversation with the developer at Moom:

[...]
LOL, even the guys at Moom agree that Apple's implementation is wrong as he replied with 'the code to make it behave the "right" way'. Hahaha.

i'm not too concerned with what a dev considers right or wrong but thanks for posting the conversation. :thumbs up:

 

[bladerunner2000]

i'm not too concerned with what a dev considers right or wrong but thanks for posting the conversation. :thumbs up:

Well, actually, you should be, because it adds even more weight to the FACT that many people do not like 'full screen' button behaviour.

 

[flat five]

Well, actually, you should be, because it adds even more weight to the FACT that many people do not like 'full screen' button behaviour.

he quoted it -> "right" way because he was talking to you and responding to your tone.
reading comprehension.

anyway.. i don't think what he said holds much weight other than maybe the public vs private API part..

i just set better touch tool to this:

...and it does exactly what you all want it to.. single click the green button and the window maximizes to full display minus the dock and menu bar.

 

[KALLT]

LOL, even the guys at Moom agree that Apple's implementation is wrong as he replied with 'the code to make it behave the "right" way'. Hahaha.

What do you mean with “even”? They wrote an app that either supplements or reverses the standard behaviour of OS X. They in particular would agree that it makes sense. I trust you understand that by placing the quotation marks, they either acknowledge that it’s not the right way at all, but their preferred way, or acknowledge your opinion of it. They are simply professional about it.

i just set better touch tool to this:
View attachment 569836

...and it does exactly what you all want it to.. single click the green button and the window maximizes to full display minus the dock and menu bar.

Some users have reported that it doesn’t work all the time. And I am not sure how it works exactly. Could it be blocking the signals from the green button?

 

[bladerunner2000]

i just set better touch tool to this:
View attachment 569836

...and it does exactly what you all want it to.. single click the green button and the window maximizes to full display minus the dock and menu bar.

Congrats, your first worthy contribution to the thread.

I'll have to try that out.

 

[KALLT]

I'll have to try that out.

Are you kidding me? I posted this a fortnight ago in this thread with a video tutorial after it was mentioned in the third reply to your original post. You have never even bothered to check it out?

 

[redheeler]

he quoted it -> "right" way because he was talking to you and responding to your tone.
reading comprehension.

anyway.. i don't think what he said holds much weight other than maybe the public vs private API part..

i just set better touch tool to this:
View attachment 569836

...and it does exactly what you all want it to.. single click the green button and the window maximizes to full display minus the dock and menu bar.

I'll have to try this on my riMac to restore the old functionality of the green button. Thanks for posting.

 

[mag01]

...
i just set better touch tool to this:
View attachment 569836

...and it does exactly what you all want it to.. single click the green button and the window maximizes to full display minus the dock and menu bar.

Yeah, that's what I was using in Yosemite myself. However it did work very unreliably (sometimes it did work, sometimes it just didn't - for no obvious reason). I even emailed the BTT developer regarding this, but never got any reply. This inconsistent behaviour was so annoying that I stopped using it altogether and now I'm just looking for some better options.

 

[flat five]

I'll have to try this on my riMac to restore the old functionality of the green button. Thanks for posting.

to return to the old functionality, i believe you'll want to use this setting:
(zoom window below cursor)..
i only briefly tried it but it appears to do as you desire.

..
but hey, i gotta turn this thing off now.. i personally just like the default yosemite behavior