Green Button - Maximize, Not Full Screen

[flat five]

You appear to be making the case against a green full screen button here, just like bladerunner2000 is. Hmm...

With webpages in Safari, many pages will expand to fill the empty horizontal space and reduce the amount of vertical scrolling required. The same can be done in Finder.

no, i'm talking about the Zoom function.

there appears to be two different paths being discussed.

what the green button does and the difference between zooming and maximizing..

and i'm saying zooming is fine as is, it's more useful and 'smarter' than a dumb maximize.. that i double-click a title bar instead of clicking the green button makes no difference to me.. (well, targeting the title bar is easier than the green button so it's actually a bit easier to access the feature).

re:full screen.. i use it all the time in two of my programs and occasionally in others.. but that's (maybe) off on a tangent.. i could elaborate more if need be.

 

[flat five]

If you refuse to read the discussion then leave the discussion.

i'm trying to have a discussion.. here, i'll try again

anyway.. you've made a big enough huff&puff over this and keep dishing links out to this thread all over the site so how about making the case for why you need to maximize windows to the full available screen space? i want to zoom a window to avoid scrolling.. i don't want to zoom so half my display is relevant content and the rest is just blank space.. i can't imagine someone needing this capability but obviously you do.. so please explain why.

 

[bladerunner2000]

i'm trying to have a discussion.. here, i'll try again

anyway.. you've made a big enough huff&puff over this and keep dishing links out to this thread all over the site so how about making the case for why you need to maximize windows to the full available screen space? i want to zoom a window to avoid scrolling.. i don't want to zoom so half my display is relevant content and the rest is just blank space.. i can't imagine someone needing this capability but obviously you do.. so please explain why.

Read the thread.

 

[flat five]

Read the thread.

ok.. read it.

it breaks down to basically:
• windows users who think the green button on mac should mean the same thing as maximize button on windows.
• people who don't know what zooming means (you)

-Doesn't work the same for all apps. Please stop ignoring things that have already been pointed out.
-This isn't really up for debate, it used to work 'ok' with its non-predictable 'enlarge' functionality.

it actually does work the same and it's entirely predictable..
• people who actually know what it does and are attempting to explain.
• exactly one person who started off on 'your side' and after someone explained the feature, changed to 'oh.. i see now' (hint- this is probably what you should do too)

---

but not one single person has said why they want to maximize a window vs. zooming it.. one person sort of did:
""
They are only asking for an option to set the behavior of the maximize button so they can maximize their productivity.""

.. be more productive how? i truly don't understand how my productivity would increase if i could maximize a window instead of zooming it.. (even though i can do both anyway)..

so, now i've read the thread.. and my questions are not answered still.. so again:


anyway.. you've made a big enough huff&puff over this and keep dishing links out to this thread all over the site so how about making the case for why you need to maximize windows to the full available screen space? i want to zoom a window to avoid scrolling.. i don't want to zoom so half my display is relevant content and the rest is just blank space.. i can't imagine someone needing this capability but obviously you do.. so please explain why.

 

[redheeler]

no, i'm talking about the Zoom function.

there appears to be two different paths being discussed.

what the green button does and the difference between zooming and maximizing..

and i'm saying zooming is fine as is, it's more useful and 'smarter' than a dumb maximize.. that i double-click a title bar instead of clicking the green button makes no difference to me.. (well, targeting the title bar is easier than the green button so it's actually a bit easier to access the feature).

As I mentioned, content (especially modern webpages) will tend to expand and fill the space, even though the space isn't needed. This is a reason maximize actually would be a useful option, think of it as fullscreen mode with menu bar and dock.

I prefer the green buttom simply because that is what I am used to. The fact that Apple can't include a simple setting for changing the default behavior of it is simply ridiculous.

re:full screen.. i use it all the time in two of my programs and occasionally in others.. but that's (maybe) off on a tangent.. i could elaborate more if need be.

I use it a lot on my 13" rMBP as well, but I really don't care for it on larger screens.

 

[campyguy]

Jumping really late and not being judgmental about the fixation of a GUI element in the OS X interface, Apple likely isn't going to change the function of the "green button", given that Apple has given its users a built-in means to change it. I posted the following about a year ago:
Any way to switch toggles on maximise?

Rather than incur the wrath of the OP in this matter, I'm offering an alternative I've used for years to address this "oversight" in OS X, having fixed it for my use, and moved on with other things that are IMHO more important. XtraFinder also offers a tweak to "fix" this.

I won't be "watching" this thread or engaging in debate about my workaround - use it, or move on...

 

[flat five]

As I mentioned, content (especially modern webpages) will tend to expand and fill the space, even though the space isn't needed. This is a reason maximize actually would be a useful option, think of it as fullscreen mode with menu bar and dock.

there still is a dock and menu bar in full screen though.. and you can speed up the animations if desired.

I prefer the green buttom simply because that is what I am used to. The fact that Apple can't include a simple setting for changing the default behavior of it is simply ridiculous.

i understand that.. i guess in my case, i actually like that they put fullscreen functionality on the green button instead as on the right side of the title bar.. so maybe me accepting the change to double-clicking the title bar for zooming was much easier for me to accept/ingrain since it was a positive change.. (but for real.. arguing that somehow double clicking the title bar is burdensome compared to clicking the green button is mostly laughable .. i'm pretty sure i can zoom a window faster than i can make it go fullscreen via the button.. that said, if you're not used to the behavior then it's a fair point and can lead to mistakingly going fullscreen when wanting zoom).

your second sentence though, i don't necessarily agree with.. we're arguing about the teeniest tiniest thing here and apple should definitely without a doubt have a preference setting for this??.. but if this were added to preferences then there are thousands of other minuscule things which need added too.. making a trip to prefs basically worthless.

pretty sure apple does an ok job at balancing customizability with simplicity of preference panels/use

 

[redheeler]

your second sentence though, i don't necessarily agree with.. we're arguing about the teeniest tiniest thing here and apple should definitely without a doubt have a preference setting for this??.. but if this were added to preferences then there are thousands of other minuscule things which need added too.. making a trip to prefs basically worthless.

But, are those thousands of other little things also the way OS X had worked for over a decade?

 

[flat five]

But, are those thousands of other little things also the way OS X had worked for over a decade?

fair point.

fwiw, the green button change did result in a new preference in order to maintain decade old functionality.. when the green button was only zoom, double-clicking a title bar minimized the window (same as yellow button).. now that the behavior has changed to zooming being a secondary action of the green button and a primary action of 2click title bar, there's a preference which allow you to set doubleclicking the bar back to minimize..

point being, the developers obviously thought this through and did actually modify the preference panel to allow for legacy behavior.. just that your desired preference didn't make the cut.

my main thing in the thread though isn't about this.. change the green button back to zoom.. double click a title bar for full screen.. i don't really care.. they're both easy enough to accomplish and they're easy enough to remember which is which.

but make either of those maximize a window in the same way it does on windows then i'd have more of a problem.. i don't find that type of functionality better than what full screen nor zooming offers.. i have a reason for zooming and i have a reason for using full screen.. but i don't understand the need to maximize which isn't already handled by either of those two in a better fashion.

---
[edit]
and really, if you want to 'maximize' a window, just drag the thing out.. it takes like 2 seconds

 

[Shirasaki]

ok.. read it.

it breaks down to basically:
• windows users who think the green button on mac should mean the same thing as maximize button on windows.
• people who don't know what zooming means (you)

it actually does work the same and it's entirely predictable..
• people who actually know what it does and are attempting to explain.
• exactly one person who started off on 'your side' and after someone explained the feature, changed to 'oh.. i see now' (hint- this is probably what you should do too)

---

but not one single person has said why they want to maximize a window vs. zooming it.. one person sort of did:
""
They are only asking for an option to set the behavior of the maximize button so they can maximize their productivity.""

.. be more productive how? i truly don't understand how my productivity would increase if i could maximize a window instead of zooming it.. (even though i can do both anyway)..

so, now i've read the thread.. and my questions are not answered still.. so again:


anyway.. you've made a big enough huff&puff over this and keep dishing links out to this thread all over the site so how about making the case for why you need to maximize windows to the full available screen space? i want to zoom a window to avoid scrolling.. i don't want to zoom so half my display is relevant content and the rest is just blank space.. i can't imagine someone needing this capability but obviously you do.. so please explain why.

So why I either double click finder window or control click green button, finder window becomes smaller? Should it becomes larger to do what you explain to do? I have seen this not only once, but multiple times.

And we are not trying to convince everyone in here destroying "smart zoom" feature rooted in Mac OS X long time ago.

 

[flat five]

So why I either double click finder window or control click green button, finder window becomes smaller? Should it becomes larger to do what you explain to do? I have seen this not only once, but multiple times.

And we are not trying to convince everyone in here destroying "smart zoom" feature rooted in Mac OS X long time ago.

it toggles.. start with a window which shows scroll bars.. zoom it (showing all content in the window without requiring scrolling -- unless there is more content than screen allows).. zoom it again and it goes back to the smaller size.. it zooms in and out.

if you have more than one window open on a display, you probably have at least one of them less than optimized size since you've had to shrink it down in order to fit other windows in visible space.. zooming allow you to quickly set a window to optimized size for the content without completely covering the other open windows (unless necessary).. then zoom it again to return to original layout of windows.

 

[Shirasaki]

it toggles.. start with a window which shows scroll bars.. zoom it (showing all content in the window without requiring scrolling -- unless there is more content than screen allows).. zoom it again and it goes back to the smaller size.. it zooms in and out.

if you have more than one window open on a display, you probably have at least one of them less than optimized size since you've had to shrink it down in order to fit other windows in visible space.. zooming allow you to quickly set a window to optimized size for the content without completely covering the other open windows (unless necessary).. then zoom it again to return to original layout of windows.

Sorry for missing point on my explanation. The original Window size is small, and i need to scroll to display more items. However when I try to trigger maximise, window becomes even smaller.

You say in this state, OS X tend to shrink app window to prevent from covering other Windows? I don't understand this way.

 

[flat five]

Sorry for missing point on my explanation. The original Window size is small, and i need to scroll to display more items. However when I try to trigger maximise, window becomes even smaller.

hard to say since i've never seen that happen.. if i understand correctly, you've had a finder window open which shows scroll bars then zoomed it.. and it gots even smaller and hiding even more content? if so, that's odd/buggy sounding (unless it was a window that you previously zoomed larger.. then when you zoom it again, it will shrink back to its original size).

also, i haven't tried different combinations of view settings in finder then zooming.. (icon/list/coverflow & sort by/arrange by.. etc combos).. i imagine there may be some combination which would make zooming act weird.. maybe having sort by and arrange by set to 'none' in icon view could cause undesired behavior. (for example)

You say in this state, OS X tend to shrink app window to prevent from covering other Windows? I don't understand this way.

i might of described that not-so-clearly.. i could show a little more cleary using screenshots but i'm getting tired now.. going to sleep soon.

 

[Shirasaki]

hard to say since i've never seen that happen.. if i understand correctly, you've had a finder window open which shows scroll bars then zoomed it.. and it gots even smaller and hiding even more content? if so, that's odd/buggy sounding (unless it was a window that you previously zoomed larger.. then when you zoom it again, it will shrink back to its original size).

also, i haven't tried different combinations of view settings in finder then zooming.. (icon/list/coverflow & sort by/arrange by.. etc combos).. i imagine there may be some combination which would make zooming act weird.. maybe having sort by and arrange by set to 'none' in icon view could cause undesired behavior. (for example)


i might of described that not-so-clearly.. i could show a little more cleary using screenshots but i'm getting tired now.. going to sleep soon.

Ah! Sorry to bother you sleeping! Very sorry!

 

[azpc]

Hello Flat Five,

This discussion is about the Maximize Option. It is not about forcing you or anyone else to change their Mac usage patterns.

Ok, So what is this about?

This is about adding an option that does not currently exist on the Macintosh.

What would we like to have added?

The ability to choose the default function of the Green Full Screen button.

Many Mac users don't care for full screen, they would rather set the default behavior to the previous Zoom function. Still others would prefer the green button to perform like it does under windows.

None of these preferences is superior to the others. Instead they reflect the work style of the user. Just like Myers Briggs has identified different personality types there are different Mac users.

Why provide a Maximize option?

A maximize setting allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some like a fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock and Menu bar as visual cues.

Plenty of apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Frequently 40% of functionality is in the pull down menus. Full Screen just adds in a delay in the workflow.

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps. These users are frequently mouse not trackpad users.

That is why these questions frequently occur:

- "Where did my Menu bar and Dock go?"
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I use the Menu and Dock as visual cues, why should I want them hidden?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"

I believe the default option should be set to Full Screen like it currently is. (No one is being forced to change!)

Apple should provide an option in System Preferences to change to the default to:

2. Maximize to Content (Window will reshape according to content). This was Pre Yosemite behavior.

3. Maximize Window. (Window will expand to fill entire desktop except for the Menu Bar and the Dock).

The third option is A new option on the Mac. This option will be very popular with many Mac users along with switchers from Windows and some variants of Linux.


DustyKiddo with "Choose your Maximize" graphic. (Posted by BladeRunner2000 and by AZPC.)

HOJX also contributed an excellent suggestion with the idea of a check box option "Always Show Menu Bar and Dock".


In my opinion both ideas are workable. Why?

1. Neither idea changes the default behavior.

2. Both ideas allow Mac users to add a frequently requested feature, the ability to set the default behavior of the Green Button.

Have a pleasant evening and enjoy your Mac!


For those who are interested in having a Maximize Option:

You can send feedback to Apple at:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Tim Cook, Apple CEO can be reached on Twitter.

If you are running the El Capitan beta you can send Apple feedback through the feedback assistant.

 

[azpc]

Flat Five,

It may not be an issue for you - GREAT! but it is definitely an issue for many others. As a teacher I can promise you DustyKiddo is right on when he posted:

"Hi all,

I am the one that originally drew this image and submitted it to Apple about six months ago.

I teach web / software development at the college level and have noticed that a lot of students were struggling with this one, HIGHLY UNPREDICTABLE feature on the Mac -- yup, it's the delightful, green maximize button! Oh boy...

Students really don't get this feature at all, as you never truly know what it's going to do. One student showed me that his green button (with one app) didn't do anything at all. Another time, the green button caused the window to slide partially off the screen, concealing some of the information he needed. Other times, it went full screen and freaked them out, thinking they did something "horrible" to their mac -- it somehow "deleted" their dock and menu bar!! Help! How do I get them back? ;-)

It all just depends upon the flavor of the Mac OS X version that one's using.

Apple NEEDS to figure out what the green button is going to do. I would highly recommend giving users (instead of programmers) their own choice of how they interact with their machine.

If you like the maximize to content -- YAY, good for you! You should be able to have that. If you want full screen options, that's cool. If you want the Windows-style maximize while still having access to your "dock" and menu bar, that should be an option as well. One is not better than the others.

Right now, students just look at the Mac as if it's either TOTALLY crazy or ... simply "broken." There is a beauty to giving users the option / ability to make their Mac work the way that functions best for them.

Dustin"


Take Care

 

[Shirasaki]

So today I come in one of the local apple store for a quick view on what this green button in "+" mode would behave in a demo Mac OS X Yosemite 10.10.4. Sorry for limitation of demo OS X I cannot print any screenshot in here. But all results is listed "as-is", untouched. Note, I will not test all apps installed on demo OS X.

All results will be posted in such format:

App name
--Window size before "zooming in" or "maximise".
-->Window size after "zooming in" or "maximise".
=================(divide between app and app)
OK. Let's start.

Maps
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock visible.
==================
Finder
It depends on the view option, column width (in list view mode), content size. There are three possible results:
1. When clicking "+" button, nothing changes.
2. When clicking "+" button, window becomes smaller.
3. When clicking "+" button, window stretches to fit things displaying on the screen.
===================
Final Cut Pro
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, without menubar and dock.
This app doesn't even provide the option to display menubar and dock when in full screen, although default window size when startup does provide this effect.
====================
iTunes
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.
====================
Message
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.
===================
Safari
It depends on site contents, web page layout, and current window size. There are also three possible results:
1. When clicking "+" button, nothing changes.
2. When clicking "+" button, window becomes smaller.
3. When clicking "+" button, window stretches to fit things displaying on the screen.
=======================
Notes
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.
======================
iMovie
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, without menubar and dock.
This one is similar to Final Cut Pro.
======================
iBooks
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.
=======================
Microsoft Word 2011
In document/template picking up window
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.
In document editing window
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.
Note: if your original window size cannot display the most of your document content without scroll (say vertical scroll), it will stretch to the size, losing your previous size setting.
========================
Microsoft PowerPoint 2011
This app has similar behaviour with Microsoft Word 2011.
========================
Preview
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Stretch to fit contents displaying inside app, with menubar and dock visible.
This means window size may become smaller than before.
=======================
Keynote
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Stretch to fit contents displaying inside app, with menubar and dock visible.
This means window size may become smaller than before.
========================
Pages
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Stretch to fit contents displaying inside app, with menubar and dock visible.
This means window size may become smaller than before.
=========================
Cinemagraph Pro
--random size, smaller than desktop size.
-->Full screen, with menubar and dock.

So here is the conclusion of this test.

Regards.

白崎つぐみ

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
Stop the bickering, debate the topic, and do not flame the members.

 

[KALLT]

Rather than incur the wrath of the OP in this matter, I'm offering an alternative I've used for years to address this "oversight" in OS X, having fixed it for my use, and moved on with other things that are IMHO more important. XtraFinder also offers a tweak to "fix" this. [...] use it, or move on...

Practical solutions don't seem to matter here, this discussion has been about a matter of principle since the first page. There are dozens of third-party utilities that can help out. I even linked to a tool that actually changes the behaviour of the green button to a maximise function (albeit a bit sloppily). In a nutshell, this discussion is about: 'Apple doesn't give me the option I want and I found some people who agree with me and there are no good reasons why Apple shouldn't do this and so Apple should offer us this option.'

The point still is that most people here don't seem to care about this as much, are even satisfied with the status quo, and Apple has not shown any intention of reversing their position. The discussion died many pages ago and it will go on and on and on and on with the same arguments. Everything has been said, as flat five's revival of this topic clearly shows.

 

[mag01]

@KALLT
Does BetterTouchTool work for you reliably? Because for me (at Yosemite) it works (the green button override function) about 30-50% of time. At other times I get the OS X default behaviour for the green button. I did use the Right Zoom app previously and that one did work reliably, but it stopped working in Yosemite.

 

[azpc]

Practical solutions don't seem to matter here, this discussion has been about a matter of principle since the first page. There are dozens of third-party utilities that can help out. I even linked to a tool that actually changes the behaviour of the green button to a maximise function (albeit a bit sloppily). In a nutshell, this discussion is about: 'Apple doesn't give me the option I want and I found some people who agree with me and there are no good reasons why Apple shouldn't do this and so Apple should offer us this option.'

The point still is that most people here don't seem to care about this as much, are even satisfied with the status quo, and Apple has not shown any intention of reversing their position. The discussion died many pages ago and it will go on and on and on and on with the same arguments. Everything has been said, as flat five's revival of this topic clearly shows.

I thank you for listing these utilities, unfortunately as Mag01 mentioned the results are not always reliable. Compatibility issues seem to exist.

I'm glad you like your Mac exactly as it is now. Great! Enjoy!

Others would like to see an option that will improve their experience. I support this.

Have a great day!

 

[KALLT]

@KALLT
Does BetterTouchTool work for you reliably? Because for me (at Yosemite) it works (the green button override function) about 30-50% of time. At other times I get the OS X default behaviour for the green button. I did use the Right Zoom app previously and that one did work reliably, but it stopped working in Yosemite.

I don't use BetterTouchTool myself (I only tested it) and I admitted that the function is a bit sloppy. But it's not the only one; there are lots of other tools in the App Store and elsewhere that can help you with the maximising of windows and they don't all have the same approach. Right Zoom seems to have been abandoned. I used to use Window Magnet myself (recently updated for Yosemite), which works a lot like the window snapping feature of Windows 7 (just drag the window to the top and it will maximise; you can also use your keyboard for this) and it works in El Capitan as well. The point is that you can get the behaviour you want with minimal adjustment and as I said multiple times now, OS X is but a default experience. You are not dependent upon the experience Apple provides to you.

Just for good measure, a quick search in the App Store: HyperDock, Window Magnet, BetterSnapTool, Window Keys, Moom, Cinch, Window Tidy, iSnap. These are tools you can use for this and the list goes on.

 

[flat five]

flat five's revival of this topic

for clarity.
bladerunner talks about this green button thing in numerous threads at macrumors and links back to this thread.. in an effort not to clutter up those topics with off-topic green buttons, i replied to him here instead of there..
(i was in the mac pro forum.. have also seen it in the front page news discussions.. i imagine it happens elsewhere as well)

 

[KALLT]

for clarity.
bladerunner talks about this green button thing in numerous threads at macrumors and links back to this thread.. in an effort not to clutter up those topics with off-topic green buttons, i replied to him here instead of there..
(i was in the mac pro forum.. have also seen it in the front page news discussions.. i imagine it happens elsewhere as well)

I didn't want to blame you for anything, I just wanted to demonstrate that this topic has been debated to exhaustion and you will probably have seen that I made the same points as you throughout this thread, just like others have done before.

 

[mag01]

I don't use BetterTouchTool myself (I only tested it) and I admitted that the function is a bit sloppy. But it's not the only one; there are lots of other tools in the App Store and elsewhere that can help you with the maximising of windows...

I see, but based on the recent experience with BTT I'm quite hesitant to try out more such apps - most of them are quite invasive (and in result harder to cleanly uninstall) and it's possible that I'd have to try out several such apps in order to find a decent one.

So if anyone has a tip for a Right Zoom replacement (e.g. small, lightweight, ideally free app), please share...

I'm actually considering the Flexiglass (but not free) app as it also provides the window snapping features (I'd say much in better way than what El Cap now provides) so if that one would reliably work in El Cap, it might be the ideal choice for me.