Green Button - Maximize, Not Full Screen

[KALLT]

Students really don't get this feature at all, as you never truly know what it's going to do. One student showed me that his green button (with one app) didn't do anything at all. Another time, the green button caused the window to slide partially off the screen, concealing some of the information he needed. Other times, it went full screen and freaked them out, thinking they did something "horrible" to their mac -- it somehow "deleted" their dock and menu bar!! Help! How do I get them back? ;-)

Misunderstandings like these happen all the time. Systems all have their own logics and quirks, and misunderstandings are not in themselves reasons why Apple should favour one over the other or offer options. I happen to know some people who don't understand the idea of dragging applications into the Applications folder for installation and who become confused when applications refuse to start because of that; ultimately preferring a package installer, like on Windows. I also know people who don't understand that closing a window is not equal to closing an application and who prefer a force-close approach with helper tools that continue to run in the background, like on Windows. It's perfectly reasonable to think that way, but it's also perfectly reasonable for developers to stick to the Mac way, ultimately for reasons that go beyond just user preference.

The green button is only unpredictable in the sense that it doesn't expand the window, but adjusts it. People who say that this feature is unreliable often don't understand what it is supposed to do and don't engage with it properly. Normally there is no reason to use it, unless you find that the current window size is unacceptable and you need something to quickly readjust the size to something that allows you to view the content better, either a bigger or smaller window. I accept that the implementation of the green button is not ideal and that some developers have implemented it poorly into their apps. But that doesn't mean that it's a poor feature in itself. Apple's solution to this confusion has been full-screen mode, where developers have little control over it. This change of default behaviour now lies at the heart of this debate and I think that your students in particular should appreciate this.

 

[Shirasaki]

Spoiler

Misunderstandings like these happen all the time. Systems all have their own logics and quirks, and misunderstandings are not in themselves reasons why Apple should favour one over the other or offer options. I happen to know some people who don't understand the idea of dragging applications into the Applications folder for installation and who become confused when applications refuse to start because of that; ultimately preferring a package installer, like on Windows. I also know people who don't understand that closing a window is not equal to closing an application and who prefer a force-close approach with helper tools that continue to run in the background, like on Windows. It's perfectly reasonable to think that way, but it's also perfectly reasonable for developers to stick to the Mac way, ultimately for reasons that go beyond just user preference.

The green button is only unpredictable in the sense that it doesn't expand the window, but adjusts it. People who say that this feature is unreliable often don't understand what it is supposed to do and don't engage with it properly. Normally there is no reason to use it, unless you find that the current window size is unacceptable and you need something to quickly readjust the size to something that allows you to view the content better, either a bigger or smaller window. I accept that the implementation of the green button is not ideal and that some developers have implemented it poorly into their apps. But that doesn't mean that it's a poor feature in itself. Apple's solution to this confusion has been full-screen mode, where developers have little control over it. This change of default behaviour now lies at the heart of this debate and I think that your students in particular should appreciate this.

The confusion of installation method and the confusion of this green button is not the same story. If one doesn't want to work in mac way, I would recommend that one insist on Windows at the very beginning, rather than purchasing a mac worth thousands of dollars to force mac work like what windows does.

The green button causes massive confusion throughout this post, and it is obvious that most people in here don't really think this.green button has no mistake completing its job. When I try to use this button, I would never expect it will work like what windows does. But why it shrink window size when I think this button should expand window size to quickly let me see more contents inside window? If this is what green button does, I would smash the mac I have if I am angry at that time, and convince anyone I can chat with never using mac.

Everyone living in this world must learn how to tolerate and accept new things. But such tolerance has its own limit. I never expect that button can "shrink" window size. Never.

I don't really think adding an option is a good idea. But apple must make the behaviour of this button reasonable. At least, don't do anything opposite.

Sorry for offensive comment.

 

[bladerunner2000]

The confusion of installation method and the confusion of this green button is not the same story. If one doesn't want to work in mac way, I would recommend that one insist on Windows at the very beginning, rather than purchasing a mac worth thousands of dollars to force mac work like what windows does.

You make it sound like making ONE aspect, the green button, of OS X will change it so much as to be a complete copy of MS Windows.

You're wrong on that.

 

[Shirasaki]

You make it sound like making ONE aspect, the green button, of OS X will change it so much as to be a complete copy of MS Windows.

You're wrong on that.

Well, I would never force mac OS X works like what windows works. What I want to say is to persuade those who just simply think mac hardware is beautiful and rush to purchase one to think twice. You may know that dozens of customers buy a mac, and completely for are hard disk and install windows to use the mac hardware.This is really common in Chinese customers.

Say you use Windows years, and you already get used to it, if you cannot adopt mac OS X work flow design, you should not use mac OS X. Otherwise, you can try it.

I don't know why you think I will try to let green button work exactly as windows does.

 

[azpc]

We can discuss theory all we want, it can be fun at times! However, in reality DustyKiddo is correct in his assessment. I have seen the same exact same responses.

Of course, no one is asking for your Mac to be changed, only the option to change their Mac.

The graphic plainly states "Choose your Maximize" that should be simple enough.

 

[Shirasaki]

I now have another assumption which let some users think apple should not add this as a function.

One thing is already mentioned before in this thread. That is "adding this option would let mac works more like windows". But hey, El Capitan adds split screen function, similar to split screen originally introduced in Windows 7 years ago. Apple just removes the menubar and dock when splitting windows using two apps. In Windows, you can simply set taskbar auto hide and mimic the similar effect on Mac OS X, from Windows 7 to Windows 10. But Windows and Mac are still two different OS, with different core, different design, and different way to use it. Adding one option from Windows doesn't mean mac will become windows. I know this is too simple to understand, though.

And the next one is habit, which everyone in here knows it clearly. I don't want to expand in here, but I know keeping something as a habit, sometimes, is horrible.

 

[DustyKiddo]

The question I have is this... Did they even read the image that I created?

Nowhere does it talk about "forcing" people to do anything the windows way. It only says that options should be made available to allow people to use their mac the way they desire it to do so. Nothing is being forced upon anyone. Those who are suggesting this are either uninformed ... or they are being intentionally dishonest.

 

[azpc]

The question I have is this... Did they even read the image that I created?

Nowhere does it talk about "forcing" people to do anything the windows way. It only says that options should be made available to allow people to use their mac the way they desire it to do so. Nothing is being forced upon anyone. Those who are suggesting this are either uninformed ... or they are being intentionally dishonest.

Amen!

 

[azpc]

This is not about making the Mac into a Windows machine!

Ok, What is this about?

This is about adding an option that does not currently exist on the Macintosh.


What would you like to have added?

The ability to choose the default function of the Green Full Screen button.

The default option should be set to Full Screen like it currently is. (No one is being forced to change!)

Apple should provide an option in System Preferences to change to the default to:

2. Maximize to Content (Window will reshape according to content). This was Pre Yosemite behavior.

3. Maximize Window. (Window will expand to fill entire desktop except for the Menu Bar and the Dock).

The third option is A new option on the Mac. This option will be very popular with many Mac users along with switchers from Windows and some variants of Linux.


Why?

Many apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Adobe Photoshop is a classic example. (40% of functionality is in the pull down menus.)

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

That is why these questions frequently occur:

- "Where did my menu bar and Dock go?"
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"

A maximize setting allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

Comments from Users:

Quackers82 on MacRumors

"Having in the last two years switched the whole company I work for from Windows to Mac OS with over 200 Macs deployed I can say the only thing that annoys users is the fact the green button does not make a program go full screen WITH the dock still showing. Its my only annoyance too.

Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how trainees are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximize does in Windows."​

Comments from other Mac websites:

"Mac has many features that beat Windows, but this isn’t one of them. Maybe Apple could allow users to change the zoom-button settings in preferences according to the desires of the user.

"This has probably been my only gripe with OSX, ever. For personal use and for development, the only thing that has consistently kinda irked me."

"I use Mac OS X daily. And I love it. But I grew up on Windows, and find myself always wanting to truly maximize (without going into full screen mode, which is something else entirely)."

"One very, very common question/complaint from folks who have recently switched from Windows to Mac is the green button. It’s a totally valid question – the resizing behavior has always annoyed me too, and I made the switch years ago."​

Take Care!

 

[KALLT]

The question I have is this... Did they even read the image that I created?

Nowhere does it talk about "forcing" people to do anything the windows way. It only says that options should be made available to allow people to use their mac the way they desire it to do so. Nothing is being forced upon anyone. Those who are suggesting this are either uninformed ... or they are being intentionally dishonest.

I'm getting sick and tired of this misrepresentation in this thread. Please quote someone here who says that this is about forcing something upon users. Everyone here seems to understand that you and others are advocating a preference option, nothing more, nothing less. We all accept this. We disagree, though, about the necessity and the urgency, hence the discussion. Some people here like to pretend that it's a no-brainer and an obvious addition to OS X, but that is not so. I am particularly unimpressed by arguments that show a misguided understanding about the green button that has never been the case.

Ultimately this is not even the right place. This thread is about discussing the suggested option and we see that not everyone agrees that it's necessary. When you just want to bring this feature to the attention of other users or preferably Apple, this is not the place anyway.

The confusion of installation method and the confusion of this green button is not the same story. If one doesn't want to work in mac way, I would recommend that one insist on Windows at the very beginning, rather than purchasing a mac worth thousands of dollars to force mac work like what windows does.

The green button causes massive confusion throughout this post, and it is obvious that most people in here don't really think this.green button has no mistake completing its job. When I try to use this button, I would never expect it will work like what windows does. But why it shrink window size when I think this button should expand window size to quickly let me see more contents inside window? If this is what green button does, I would smash the mac I have if I am angry at that time, and convince anyone I can chat with never using mac.

Everyone living in this world must learn how to tolerate and accept new things. But such tolerance has its own limit. I never expect that button can "shrink" window size. Never.

I don't really think adding an option is a good idea. But apple must make the behaviour of this button reasonable. At least, don't do anything opposite.

Sorry for offensive comment.

You're not being offensive in any way, just to make that clear.

 

[azpc]

Shirasaki,

Fair enough. I think the option is very important, you don't. I can live with that.

Take Care

 

[Shirasaki]

Shirasaki,

Fair enough. I think the option is very important, you don't. I can live that.

Take Care

Sorry to see you say this.

I say this option is "not so important" because either El Capitan or Yosemite has done a try to mimic this function a little bit. Yes, a little Bit. Apple has a very bad habit listening to user feedback, so I have sense why this function is still valuable to discussing, as long as apple refuses to add it to system as an option.

Another reason I think this is not so important is because I try to use some other "low efficiency" ways to maximise the window, without hiding menubar and dock. You know, anyone can drag window to fit it as any size. But this is slow, for obvious reason.

I say this is not so important doesn't mean I don't think adding this option is good for everyone. Maybe some of my comments is not clear, or I put myself on the opposite side unconsciously. I, however, extremely hope apple could let OS X more customisable, and show more unique elements only OS X could provide. Some users can get used to current use pattern, doesn't mean, and would never be equal to say, current one is the perfect one. Maybe they just want to wait for a chance to change it to a better way. And you are among one of those.

 

[azpc]

"I, however, extremely hope apple could let OS X more customisable."

We definitely agree here! As I tweeted Tim Cook some time ago - "Forget the stickers, how about customization options for OSX!"

 

[w0lf]

"I, however, extremely hope apple could let OS X more customizable."

We definitely agree here! As I tweeted Tim Cook some time ago - "Forget the stickers, how about customization options for OSX!"

Not gonna happen... how about just sack up and use 3rd party tools to customize the OS like a normal person instead of whining that Apple adds irrelevant features. If anything as OS X progresses we tend to get less and less control so you should enjoy the 3rd party tweaks while you can before apple tries to shut down OS X even more than they already have.

 

[bladerunner2000]

Not gonna happen... how about just sack up and use 3rd party tools to customize the OS like a normal person instead of whining that Apple adds irrelevant features. If anything as OS X progresses we tend to get less and less control so you should enjoy the 3rd party tweaks while you can before apple tries to shut down OS X even more than they already have.

You're basically telling people to be complacent. That's terrible advice.

 

[azpc]

Not gonna happen... how about just sack up and use 3rd party tools to customize the OS like a normal person instead of whining that Apple adds irrelevant features. If anything as OS X progresses we tend to get less and less control so you should enjoy the 3rd party tweaks while you can before apple tries to shut down OS X even more than they already have.

Thanks for your response. Naturally, I have some issues with it. (Just like you have with mine.)

First, As mentioned earlier many of the third party utilities have compatibility issues.

Second, we are not whining. We are asking, just as many others have, for Apple to implement a feature desired by many. The worst Apple can say is no so what is the harm in asking.

Third, why post a feature request on MacRumors? I did not create the original posting, however, I was delighted when I saw it. Posting on MacRumors allows other input so the idea is perfected.

In addition, Apple Feedback does not allow graphics, however, MacRumors does. A forum allows users to send a link to Apple so they can not only read the request but see the request.

Finally, Choose your Maximize is not an irrelevant feature for many users. It might be for you but it definitely is not for others.

Why is is not irrelevant? Please read these comments:

Many apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Adobe Photoshop is a classic example. (40% of functionality is in the pull down menus.)

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

That is why these questions frequently occur:

- "Where did my menu bar and Dock go?"
- "I want my Dock to remain visible, how can I change this?"
- "I purchased a large screen so I can have more icons and options on the screen. Why is Apple fighting me?"

A maximize setting allows customers to maximize their productivity style.

- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.

Comments from Users:

Quackers82 on MacRumors

"Having in the last two years switched the whole company I work for from Windows to Mac OS with over 200 Macs deployed I can say the only thing that annoys users is the fact the green button does not make a program go full screen WITH the dock still showing. Its my only annoyance too.​

Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how trainees are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximize does in Windows."​

Comments from other Mac websites:

"Mac has many features that beat Windows, but this isn’t one of them. Maybe Apple could allow users to change the zoom-button settings in preferences according to the desires of the user.​

"This has probably been my only gripe with OSX, ever. For personal use and for development, the only thing that has consistently kinda irked me."​

"I use Mac OS X daily. And I love it. But I grew up on Windows, and find myself always wanting to truly maximize (without going into full screen mode, which is something else entirely)."​

"One very, very common question/complaint from folks who have recently switched from Windows to Mac is the green button. It’s a totally valid question – the resizing behavior has always annoyed me too, and I made the switch years ago."​

Take Care and have a great day!

 

[hojx]

I'll start by politely asking of you to stop repeating the same image and quotes in every single reply. I may have a large notebook screen but I (and many other forum-goers) do use my phone too. Just… don't.

Many apps are nearly unusable without the Menu. Adobe Photoshop is a classic example. (40% of functionality is in the pull down menus.)

Using Adobe Photoshop as a "classic example" of an app that is unusable without the menu bar is not valid. I'm using Photoshop CC 2015 and have been using Photoshop since CS2 and there has never been a fullscreen option. In addition, the current behaviour of the green button in Photoshop maximises the window to fill up the available screen real estate.

Many users multitask via the Dock. They switch from one fully maximized window to another fully maximized window and use the icons on the Dock to switch apps.

1. Cmd+Tab

2. The Dock is accessible in fullscreen mode. I know quite a number of OS X users who keeps their dock auto-hidden and work just fine. If you are not happy with the auto-hiding delay it is just a Terminal command away.

I'm not sure if this panel fits into the already slightly cluttered System Preferences.

1. Where will you put this option in? General? Dock?

2. Are you going to insert all that descriptive text (on the right outside the panel in the image) into your preference panel? Without it, is there ever a way to clearly define the 3 options in one short line?

3. Since OS X Yosemite, the default inconsistent behaviour (due to developer implementation) of the green button has been hidden in favour of the full-screen function. If I choose 'Maximise to Content' and the green button fills up the entire usable space, the user is confused. How would you clarify that?

4. Apart from the long-time option to auto-hide the Dock, OS X El Capitan introduces the ability to auto-hide the menubar as well. In this case, if I choose to auto-hide both the Dock and menubar, how would you explain the difference between 'Maximise Window' and 'Full Screen'?

 

[azpc]

"Using Adobe Photoshop as a "classic example" of an app that is unusable without the menu bar is not valid. I'm using Photoshop CC 2015 and have been using Photoshop since CS2 and there has never been a fullscreen option."

Yes, I know but I am using Photoshop as an illustration of a program that uses pull down menus extensively.

"Cmd+Tab" (Yes, I use this function but many users do not.)

The Dock is accessible in fullscreen mode. I know quite a number of OS X users who keeps their dock auto-hidden and work just fine. If you are not happy with the auto-hiding delay it is just a Terminal command away.

Great! I don't have issue if that is the way they want to work. Now how about an option helping those who wish to work a different way.

"I'm not sure if this panel fits into the already slightly cluttered System Preferences."

How about an Interface option in System Preferences where all interface options are located? Several others have suggested something similar in many other forums.

"Since OS X Yosemite, the default inconsistent behaviour (due to developer implementation) of the green button has been hidden in favour of the full-screen function. If I choose 'Maximise to Content' and the green button fills up the entire usable space, the user is confused. How would you clarify that?"

Some apps will do that because of the developer preference. That option is primarily for those who wish to return to pre Yosemite behavior. If they want more consistent behavior, switch to one of the other two options.

Have a great day!

 

[Shirasaki]

I'll start by politely asking of you to stop repeating the same image and quotes in every single reply. I may have a large notebook screen but I (and many other forum-goers) do use my phone too. Just… don't.



Using Adobe Photoshop as a "classic example" of an app that is unusable without the menu bar is not valid. I'm using Photoshop CC 2015 and have been using Photoshop since CS2 and there has never been a fullscreen option. In addition, the current behaviour of the green button in Photoshop maximises the window to fill up the available screen real estate.



1. Cmd+Tab

2. The Dock is accessible in fullscreen mode. I know quite a number of OS X users who keeps their dock auto-hidden and work just fine. If you are not happy with the auto-hiding delay it is just a Terminal command away.



I'm not sure if this panel fits into the already slightly cluttered System Preferences.

1. Where will you put this option in? General? Dock?

2. Are you going to insert all that descriptive text (on the right outside the panel in the image) into your preference panel? Without it, is there ever a way to clearly define the 3 options in one short line?

3. Since OS X Yosemite, the default inconsistent behaviour (due to developer implementation) of the green button has been hidden in favour of the full-screen function. If I choose 'Maximise to Content' and the green button fills up the entire usable space, the user is confused. How would you clarify that?

4. Apart from the long-time option to auto-hide the Dock, OS X El Capitan introduces the ability to auto-hide the menubar as well. In this case, if I choose to auto-hide both the Dock and menubar, how would you explain the difference between 'Maximise Window' and 'Full Screen'?

Everyone has his or her own using pattern, and we would respect it by default.

Therefore, although I might agree to let that forum member not posting that picture too often (maybe this is just your own thought), I still think adding an option to deal with such many inconsistent cases related to the green light button once and for all is better, than throwing this question to developer.

Since I notice this green button would do something completely opposite, I no longer think this option is useless. Yes, we have various ways to reach that goal. But see how windows treats maximise button? For desktop apps, there would only be two possibilities. One is maximise to fill the whole desktop, or even hide taskbar, when available. The other is completely occupying the whole desktop, hiding everything except that app itself. Very simple. Then see mac, first is expand window to its maximum size to show all contents on the window, but don't explicitly fill up whole desktop. Second is similar to Windows. Third is similar to Windows as well if user set taskbar auto hide, which is the full screen mode for some apps.

I believe this is hard to read and even understand. But apple should unify the behaviour of that green light button. Otherwise, more such posts will probably pop up when next major upgrade releases.

 

[hojx]

Everyone has his or her own using pattern, and we would respect it by default.

Therefore, although I might agree to let that forum member not posting that picture too often (maybe this is just your own thought), I still think adding an option to deal with such many inconsistent cases related to the green light button once and for all is better, than throwing this question to developer.

Since I notice this green button would do something completely opposite, I no longer think this option is useless. Yes, we have various ways to reach that goal. But see how windows treats maximise button? For desktop apps, there would only be two possibilities. One is maximise to fill the whole desktop, or even hide taskbar, when available. The other is completely occupying the whole desktop, hiding everything except that app itself. Very simple. Then see mac, first is expand window to its maximum size to show all contents on the window, but don't explicitly fill up whole desktop. Second is similar to Windows. Third is similar to Windows as well if user set taskbar auto hide, which is the full screen mode for some apps.

I believe this is hard to read and even understand. But apple should unify the behaviour of that green light button. Otherwise, more such posts will probably pop up when next major upgrade releases.

Apple has unified the behaviour of the green button—to fullscreen.

I would personally rather have a single 'Always show menu bar and Dock' option to complement the existing Yosemite/El Capitan fullscreen behaviour than go one big round having multiple options for the green button. Way simpler to understand.

 

[bladerunner2000]

Well, looks like Apple just one upped itself with FEWER options:

http://blog.binaryage.com/el-capitan-update/

One of my current standard apps I use daily is also getting another hinderance, TotalFinder. Just like the removal of the API for the green button, this is another step forward for turning the entire OS X platform into a glorified iPad.

Skip to 29:01 in the video below:

Steve Jobs very clearly states:

Since we believe in choice.....

Yeah right.

 

[hojx]

Well, looks like Apple just one upped itself with FEWER options:

http://blog.binaryage.com/el-capitan-update/

One of my current standard apps I use daily is also getting another hinderance, TotalFinder. Just like the removal of the API for the green button, this is another step forward for turning the entire OS X platform into a glorified iPad.

Skip to 29:01 in the video below:

Steve Jobs very clearly states:



Yeah right.

In TotalFinder's case, you have that choice—switch off Rootless.

 

[bladerunner2000]

In TotalFinder's case, you have that choice—switch off Rootless.

It's clear where Apple is headed; less choice with every revision of OS X.

 

[hojx]

It's clear where Apple is headed; less choice with every revision of OS X.

How are there less choices?

Rootless is a new feature but you can disable it. Choice.

The green button was never a choice—it has always had a single function. That function was merely swopped from Zoom to Fullscreen.
Technically, you now have a choice you never had—you can now Alt-Click to access an alternate function. Choice.

 

[chabig]

...if you cannot adopt mac OS X work flow design, you should not use mac OS X.

Well said.