Sorry to say, but that‘s just plain wrong no matter how often it is repeated, cause this implies that pricing just doesn‘t matter. No company/freelancer I know of, including myself, can just throw money out of the window by buying vastly overpriced stuff - and let‘s be clear here, the Mac Pro is. It may be a good machine, but it‘s pricing is just out of scale even for Apple.
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MP 7,1 Has anyone seen a benchmark?
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Hey, pricing is as one might say "it's in the eye of the beholder".
I would agree that a product is overpriced if it can be shown as being 2x, 3x, 4, 5x more than its production cost that may also include marketing and delivery cost. There are many things in this world that one might claim as being overpriced, such a furniture that typically has a markup of 3x over its production cost.
Pricing is also influenced by how many of the products are likely to sell over a specific time.
Has any one seen the actual cost (i.e., the cost to Apple) for development, designing, testing, QA, and cost of each MP7,1 component ? If so then this data can be used to compare with the selling cost of the MP7,1 and allowing for a certain level for a profit margin. With this approach one can say the MP7,1 is overpriced, is reasonable or is a bargain for the consumer.
And I'm sorry to say but this response is extreme and unbalanced and, well, wrong.
Nothing about what he said implied that 'pricing doesn't matter' or that he could afford to 'throw money out of the window by buying vastly overpriced stuff'.
A computer IS a tool of your trade, it IS a depreciating tax write off and it very much DOES pay for itself - several times over in some cases. These are simple facts.
If you look at the 9 to 5 video I linked to a few posts back you'll also see that the Mac Pro (when comparatively specced with similar components, not newer and more powerful chips!) is competitively priced and often cheaper and better value than competitor builds.
And re the unit being 'affordable' to a freelancer, let's look at some more facts.
If you're a pro video freelancer in the UK you're probably earning a fair bit over £300+/day - but let's go with £300 after tax for argument's sake. If the machine costs £6000 and you expect to hold onto it for 10 years then that's just 2 days work PER YEAR doing a job that hopefully you love (of course we can double this to a £12,000 machine that translates to 4 days work per year and so on). As well as going against payable income tax as mentioned, if you're VAT registered like me you're also getting 20% off which reduces the overall yearly cost even further. Add on top of this that I'm happier and more productive using OS X - this cannot be quantified financially and is a major part of the purchase decision and value for me personally.
In a business context it is not expensive.
To add to this, I'm working daily on my upgraded MP 5,1 (which is 10 years old) and it runs just fine for what I need. Pretty sure I could get another 3 years out of it and it has paid for itself several times over.
Not, those are not facts. Those are .. well, lacking a less insulting word - distorted .. facts. Because what you say implies that the price is irrelevant, what furthermore implies Apple could charge any price they want "because the machine pays for itself". This IS wrong, tax write-off or not. Its just nonsense to assume/imply price does not matter because its a write-off anyway. It simply is bad, bad value, in particular if machines half the price get the job done as well or even better
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The cost to the manufacturer is not important to the end user, except as a psychological deterrent. People don’t like to feel like they’re being ripped off by huge profit margins. At the end of the day what actually matters is the value per dollar to the purchaser compared to like products that perform the same tasks over the expected lifetime of the computer.
It does seem true that line-for-line and 1:1 Xeon, RAM, PCIe lanes, etc. the MP fares comparably to offerings from Dell and HP. So if what you need is exactly what the MP offers then the deal is a no-brainer if you’re used to or need MacOS.
That doesn’t stop many customers being either underserved in performance (vs AMD offerings) or priced-out (vs consumer HEDT platforms) of the MP line. It’s looking more and more like the modern Mac Pro is a real Goldilocks platform for a very narrow range of professionals who need the huge RAM, Afterburner, and OS.
And that argument that the amortized cost of the MP is no big deal - well, a cheaper platform that does the same job sure looks better by that very same comparison. For some workflows that option will be much cheaper indeed, and for some workflows it may not be.
It does seem true that line-for-line and 1:1 Xeon, RAM, PCIe lanes, etc. the MP fares comparably to offerings from Dell and HP. So if what you need is exactly what the MP offers then the deal is a no-brainer if you’re used to or need MacOS.
That doesn’t stop many customers being either underserved in performance (vs AMD offerings) or priced-out (vs consumer HEDT platforms) of the MP line. It’s looking more and more like the modern Mac Pro is a real Goldilocks platform for a very narrow range of professionals who need the huge RAM, Afterburner, and OS.
And that argument that the amortized cost of the MP is no big deal - well, a cheaper platform that does the same job sure looks better by that very same comparison. For some workflows that option will be much cheaper indeed, and for some workflows it may not be.
Wow!
The only thing distorted here is your interpretation. You’ve got a conclusion and you’re working backwards to justify it.
They ARE facts and they don’t in any way imply that price is irrelevant. They make clear that as a professional the cost impact isn’t anywhere NEAR the same as ie a consumer purchase.
Price has different levels of relevance to different professionals in different scenarios.
And the speed of a machine is not the only thing that determines someone’s efficiency on a job. There are many other factors at play which I’m sure you’re aware of if you’re a seasoned professional.
This is worth their own weight in gold for most people on this forum! The biggest and best feature of all Macs! This is why we are okay paying the Apple tax, plain and simple.
For intense 3D work: yes, you have to go a long way in justifying this machine, and it probably doesn't make sense at this point in time (although that may change in a couple years).
For video editing, CC, and light 3D: this machine will meet be more than enough. Your needs will be covered for years and years. Could you pay less for a PC? Yes. But the OS and premium build is valuable to many of us here, and of course, the machine pays for itself many times over. If you are a video editor and value the mac experience, it's well worth the money.
For video editing, CC, and light 3D: this machine will meet be more than enough. Your needs will be covered for years and years. Could you pay less for a PC? Yes. But the OS and premium build is valuable to many of us here, and of course, the machine pays for itself many times over. If you are a video editor and value the mac experience, it's well worth the money.
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Which Clevo do you have? What's spec? 1400 Euro it's kind of cheap for upgradable Clevo laptop, because the model with RTX 2080 is about 3000 Euro
[automerge]1577401188[/automerge]
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I’ll also add to this. I’m a cinematographer and colorist. My machine was over £10k. But after vat, apple business discount and tax write off it becomes £4700. The equivalent build to order pc as has been shown is the same if not more than the MacPro. Going the home build route makes no sense for me, i’d have to spend so much time researching and learning how to do it, and after all that i’d have to use windows and a PC, spend hours configuring, not exactly a seamless experience. So makes total sense for me to stick with apple and a machine that just works, is silent, and will pay for itself. This machine is for pro’s who are lucky enough to earn well for their work and who will benefit from it and want to stay with apple quality and ease of use.
I have the Clevo N970TC. Configured with i7 9700, 64GB 2666 Samsung RAM, GTX 1660 ti, originally with 500GB m.2 SSD and 1TB HDD (that I replaced by 3 TB of Samsung 970 Evo plus and Crucial P1 nvmes).
Price without VAT is €1,402 (as I bought it from a German company and we are in another EU country, so VAT excluded).
This machine flies and it is dead silent. I mainly use it for music production (virtual synths and samplers) and for data analytics (and some gaming). I also use Adobe software with it with very good results. It is my dream laptop come true. In long sustained loads this laptop is very quiet and has an excellent cooling capacity, compared to my recently dead (overheated in the first two weeks of usage) and returned €4,000 iMac i9 Vega 48 40GB RAM 512GB SSD.
I was afraid of Windows, but I saw that Windows 10 Pro has improved a lot for my type of usage and maybe I will not install yet Mac OS on this laptop.
If in the future I need more power than the i7 9700 a can easily install an i9 9900. It also has three SSD expansion bays, 2 NMVE and 1 SATA. But the performance of the 9700 in this laptop is surprisingly high, with equal scores to the new 2019 base Mac Pro in multicore Geekbench 5 and Cinebench r20. Its single core score is higher than any Mac (very useful for me to play live layers of virtual analogue synths in real time situations such as in concerts).
NEXOC Gaming Notebook (17,3 pulgadas Full HD 60 Hz) con i7-9700 (3,00 GHz), GTX 1660Ti 6 GB, 500 GB SSD, 1 TB HDD, 64 GB DDR4 RAM, (G1742)
El NEXOC. El G1742 cumple con las más altas exigencias y soporta incluso los retos más exigentes. Los mejores títulos están en primer plano y se ponen en escena para mejorar aún más el disfrute individual. Más que un vistazo. Esto es realmente una pieza fuerte y una visión panorámica más precisa....
www.amazon.es
Price without VAT is €1,402 (as I bought it from a German company and we are in another EU country, so VAT excluded).
This machine flies and it is dead silent. I mainly use it for music production (virtual synths and samplers) and for data analytics (and some gaming). I also use Adobe software with it with very good results. It is my dream laptop come true. In long sustained loads this laptop is very quiet and has an excellent cooling capacity, compared to my recently dead (overheated in the first two weeks of usage) and returned €4,000 iMac i9 Vega 48 40GB RAM 512GB SSD.
I was afraid of Windows, but I saw that Windows 10 Pro has improved a lot for my type of usage and maybe I will not install yet Mac OS on this laptop.
If in the future I need more power than the i7 9700 a can easily install an i9 9900. It also has three SSD expansion bays, 2 NMVE and 1 SATA. But the performance of the 9700 in this laptop is surprisingly high, with equal scores to the new 2019 base Mac Pro in multicore Geekbench 5 and Cinebench r20. Its single core score is higher than any Mac (very useful for me to play live layers of virtual analogue synths in real time situations such as in concerts).
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I have the Clevo N970TC. Configured with i7 9700, 64GB 2666 Samsung RAM, GTX 1660 ti, originally with 500GB m.2 SSD and 1TB HDD (that I replaced by 3 TB of Samsung 970 Evo plus and Crucial P1 nvmes).
NEXOC Gaming Notebook (17,3 pulgadas Full HD 60 Hz) con i7-9700 (3,00 GHz), GTX 1660Ti 6 GB, 500 GB SSD, 1 TB HDD, 64 GB DDR4 RAM, (G1742)
El NEXOC. El G1742 cumple con las más altas exigencias y soporta incluso los retos más exigentes. Los mejores títulos están en primer plano y se ponen en escena para mejorar aún más el disfrute individual. Más que un vistazo. Esto es realmente una pieza fuerte y una visión panorámica más precisa....www.amazon.es
Price without VAT is €1,402 (as I bought it from a German company and we are in another EU country, so VAT excluded).
This machine flies and it is dead silent. I mainly use it for music production (virtual synths and samplers) and for data analytics (and some gaming). I also use Adobe software with it with very good results. It is my dream laptop come true. In long sustained loads this laptop is very quiet and has an excellent cooling capacity, compared to my recently dead (overheated in the first two weeks of usage) and returned €4,000 iMac i9 Vega 48 40GB RAM 512GB SSD.
I was afraid of Windows, but I saw that Windows 10 Pro has improved a lot for my type of usage and maybe I will not install yet Mac OS on this laptop.
If in the future I need more power than the i7 9700 a can easily install an i9 9900. It also has three SSD expansion bays, 2 NMVE and 1 SATA. But the performance of the 9700 in this laptop is surprisingly high, with equal scores to the new 2019 base Mac Pro in multicore Geekbench 5 and Cinebench r20. Its single core score is higher than any Mac (very useful for me to play live layers of virtual analogue synths in real time situations such as in concerts).
I had hope the GPU is upgradable with MXM slot but isn't, also screen is only 60Hz and no TB3 for future connection with eGPU, it's not bad machine but this minuses are pretty big drawback, my experience telling me the GPU is one of the most common failure in laptops with dedicated graphics card, in older gaming laptops MXM GPU was pretty common, in new one only some top tier have MXM GPU
this guy have no clue about what's he talking about, he compared Intel Xeon Platinum 8280 server class CPU ($10000) from Dell Precision with Intel Xeon W-3275 workstation class CPU ($4449) from Mac Pro, he's knowledge only allowed to compare number of cores and frequency, typical tech trolling, nothing more 😂
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You are right. The GPU could be repasted but it is not MXM as you correctly pointed. I do not use the GPU a lot, only for gaming, but for a little more money there is the Clevo N970TF with RTX 2070 and 144hz screen. I can upgrade the screen to a 144hz panel if I needed. The cooling seems to be reliable for the 1660ti durability. And TB3 for me was not a priority given my requirements so USB 3.1 was enough. My main needs were a laptop with proper cooling, powerful desktop CPU and plenty of RAM. Of course, for other persons there could be other priorities.
Are you aware the post you quoted was written on 12/11/2019 and the article you referenced was published on 12/24/2019?
This is an interesting read:
www.pugetsystems.com
Video Editing Performance with Intel Xeon W-3200 Series Processors
While the choice between using an Intel X-series or Intel Xeon W processor is often decided by more than straight-up performance, it is still useful to know exactly how much performance you might be losing in order to gain Xeon-exclusive features like 64 PCI-E lanes or Reg. ECC memory support...
www.pugetsystems.com
Funny. Its actually the other way around: You are looking for an - not too good - excuse to justify what cannot rationally be justified.
By your very own line of thought, why not charge 20 000 for the Mac Pro? Its a tax write-off anyway, so why bother? Money is cheap these days, right? Know what, make it 30 000. Just a write off, so doesn't matter?
My tax advisor, btw, had a good laugh too. Suggest we agree to disagree and go back to topic.
That said, I'd buy it in a second if it were factually halfway reasonably priced. Unfortunately it isn't.
Also consider this: Intel cut CPU prices by a pretty significant amount just lately. Apple announced the MP on WWDC, so early June.
Did Apple decrease the MPs price accordingly?
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Hey, I don't think all of these criteria are even a consideration for 3D so I would not factor all of them in personally for a purchase. I'm also not trying to say PC is generally better (I like macOS - and I even bought a Trashcan) or go buy cheapest components and self-assemble - just that for 3D the MP seems rather uninteresting at that price.
Thunderbolt in particular seems entirely uninteresting for this case - I don't think many in the PC world even know what it is.
I'd go with a prebuilt system from a domestic retailer I had good experiences with and base it off one of the top contenders from this list: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html
That's the single most important criteria to speed up interaction with the machine. Number of cores is pretty uninteresting outside rendering and perhaps simulation (and I'd want a separate box for that if its a regular part of the work and can't be performed overnight), I think anything beyond 6 cores is plenty, you'll be lucky to find apps that really go beyond two cores or so for most things.
3D apps don't usually stream large datasets in or out - assets get loaded into the scene and stay in memory and as I found out the hard way when making the jump from spinners to SSDs: these apps spend far more time processing data internally when im/exporting than they do accessing the disk so having the most bandwidth for quick loading isn't all that interesting. Standard NVMe is already overkill.
The machine I'd spec would come in somewhere between 4 and 5000 Euros (base MP is 6499 Euros here) with either Intel i9 (proven platform without upgrade path) or AMD Ryzen (new but potential for future upgrades apparently there).
128 GB of RAM is the sore point here - plenty nowadays though but wouldn't 256 be nice.... and as I mentioned previously - if you approach that then your 3D app is most likely already creaking and crashing with datasets too demanding to be handled reliably or fast enough.
Two smallish SSDs each for the OS/apps and two large ones for workfiles (mirrored/cloned) and a spinner for backup/versioning of files internally.
One 2080 TI GPU should do for now - if VRAM is the sore point then no choice but to spend around 2.7k for the Titan though. At any rate it would have to be Nvidia for best compatibility and RTX is taking off as an interesting feature.
All that wrapped in a silent case, adequate power supply and case fans provided by beQuiet. CPU cooler one of the huge ones from Noctua, mainboard either Asus or ASrock, I had good experiences with their overclocker ranges for build quality and edge case features (I'd not overclock personally).
But as said - I let other people handle the build and warranty, I just pick and choose from their part lists.
3D apps where you might be better off with the kind of bandwidth, memory limits and number of cores you can find in systems sold explicitly as workstations are few and far between if we are talking interactive work, not rendering.
Benchmarks indicate that ZBrush can utilize lots of cores well since it relies on the CPU for its viewport/canvas rendering. Other than that Mari might be a candidate for a workstation type setup where disk bandwidth could be more of a factor on large projects than raw CPU or GPU speed. This is a niche texturing app that seems to be losing ground to a very GPU-reliant and RTX-enhanced competitor though.
Unfortunately I cannot justify buying a new Mac Pro as my needs nowadays are met with my 2013 MacBook Pro. However over ten years ago I worked as a pro photographer/videographer & was happy to pay >€2K on my 2008 Mac Pro. Today if I still needed a Mac Pro for my business I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the new models whether it cost €5K or €20K it really isn't that expensive compared to the other tools of the trade like cameras & lenses & most expensive of all a vehicle to drive around in.
Nobody here is looking for or has mentioned excuses to justify a Mac Pro purchase. The only people who seem to have issue and justify not buying one are the ones with no intention of buying and swear by building their own none Apple computers.
Spending £15,000 -£30,000 on a computer that will be paid off in 1-2 years by the work you do with it makes it a legitimate business expense - nothing laughable there.
The fact you take purchasing advise based on published performance figures for the new Mac Pro from your tax advisors says it all to me.
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Sounds like a nice laptop, but there is no way a 1660ti is close to a 5700xt, let alone a 1080ti.
More like somewhere between a 1070 and 1070ti.
Lol.
AGAIN, you’re just sticking to your bizarre, baseless conclusion and desperately rowing backwards to justify it.
And again, NOBODY has suggested that price is irrelevant. You (and now your tax adviser 🤣) are running around wildly with a point that nobody has made.
Which is weird.
So I won’t waste any more of my time with someone being so obviously obtuse.
(Cue this guy (and his tax adviser) having the last word - as he absolutely must - rowing back further with this non existent point).
Just look at the geekbench 5 openCL benchmark chart. I only use OpenCL apps, my laptop OpenCL score is over 62000 (as it is slightly overclocked and very well cooled). I know that there will be other benchmarks that will put the 1660ti at the level of the Vega 56 or GTX 1070 ti. The difference with the Vega 48 that I had in my last iMac i9 40gb RAM 512 SSD is very noticeable (in favour of the 1660 time both in terms of better performance and less noise and heat). Playing gamesor using Adobe apps with this 1660 ti is excelent. Dead silent and normally lower than 60°C. The cooling system of my laptop is ready for a 2070 or a 2060 (much hotter than the 1660 ti).
This thread is absolute garbage and you should all be ashamed.
Thank you! It derailed completely Into a windows/thread ripper/“you’re all idiots to let apple rip you off” -fest!!
These are Windows scores. On macOS subtract about 20-30% depending on API.