Has Apple lost their mind? March 8th Event Disappointment

[JouniS]

Isn’t “lock-in” a bit of hyperbole? What’s the time and money you refer to specifically?

The primary cost is time, and it often makes sense to spend a lot of money to avoid wasting time.

For example, if I was looking to upgrade my iMac today, I would have to buy a Mac Pro, because the Mac Studio does not support enough RAM to be worth upgrading to. But the Mac Pro is expensive, and I would seriously consider switching to Windows or Linux.

Unfortunately I'm a very casual Windows user these days. Windows 2000 was the last version I understood well enough for my work as a researcher / developer. Buying a Mac Pro might be cheaper than learning to use Windows properly, and Linux would probably be a better choice.

Apps are another source of trouble. Many are not cross-platform, and you would have to find replacements for them, spend time to learn them, and maybe even pay some money. Apps bought from platform-specific app stores are the worst, because you often have to buy them again if you switch platforms. (I learned to avoid the Mac App Store a decade ago when I lost access to some apps after moving to a new country. For a year or so, Apple didn't even allow me to upgrade macOS for some stupid bureaucratic reasons.)

New apps may not always support the same file formats as the old ones they replace. When that happens, you have to figure out what to do with old data.

Backup solutions are often platform-specific. If you switch platforms, you may have to rethink your backups and maybe even buy some new software/hardware.

Cloud services don't always work that well outside their preferred platforms, and you may have to replace them as well. The ones integrated into the OS, such as iCloud and OneDrive, are among the worst offenders, which is why I try to avoid them.

Peripherals and their drivers often cause issues in Linux, and sometimes the easiest solution is buying new ones. The situation is better in Windows – at least if you don't buy monitors from Apple.

 

[bobcomer]

and Linux would probably be a better choice.

Linux is a LOT harder to master than Windows.

 

[Ethosik]

No-one said anything about “cloud RAM”. They talked about physical RAM upgrades being less common these days, and a move to cloud storage (i.e. disk volumes) becoming more common. These are 2 separate points and I agree. Relatively few people need to upgrade RAM on client machines if they have adequately sized at purchase time. Yes, Apple RAM is expensive, but it is now very fast and optimized for unified memory access. On the server side, most are using cloud infrastructure that can be easily resized

My 2010 Mac Pro had 8GB of RAM. My M1Mac mini also has 8GB of RAM. The both are fine for my video editing needs. I agree. I have never upgraded my RAM or even storage since I do everything on external drives.

 

[JouniS]

Linux is a LOT harder to master than Windows.

That may well be, but familiarity with Linux is mandatory in my line of work, and I've been using it since 1999. Linux is also more straightforward for technical purposes than Windows or macOS, because there are fewer layers of user-friendliness that obscure what the computer is actually doing. These days, if something breaks after a macOS upgrade because Apple is again doing something differently, my first reaction is moving that work inside an Ubuntu virtual machine.

 

[bobcomer]

That may well be, but familiarity with Linux is mandatory in my line of work, and I've been using it since 1999. Linux is also more straightforward for technical purposes than Windows or macOS, because there are fewer layers of user-friendliness that obscure what the computer is actually doing. These days, if something breaks after a macOS upgrade because Apple is again doing something differently, my first reaction is moving that work inside an Ubuntu virtual machine.

Ah, I didn't know you already knew Linux, that makes a difference. I really don't agree with you on it being more straightforward than Windows, but it's good we have the choice.

I've actually used Linux on and off for various projects for a long time too, but I totally despise its patchwork everything and only use it as a last resort. (I particularly hate client side DB access in linux, and since that's one of my main things I do, ...)

I turn to a Windows VM when something breaks on the host.

 

[Zdigital2015]

The primary cost is time, and it often makes sense to spend a lot of money to avoid wasting time.

For example, if I was looking to upgrade my iMac today, I would have to buy a Mac Pro, because the Mac Studio does not support enough RAM to be worth upgrading to. But the Mac Pro is expensive, and I would seriously consider switching to Windows or Linux.

Unfortunately I'm a very casual Windows user these days. Windows 2000 was the last version I understood well enough for my work as a researcher / developer. Buying a Mac Pro might be cheaper than learning to use Windows properly, and Linux would probably be a better choice.

Apps are another source of trouble. Many are not cross-platform, and you would have to find replacements for them, spend time to learn them, and maybe even pay some money. Apps bought from platform-specific app stores are the worst, because you often have to buy them again if you switch platforms. (I learned to avoid the Mac App Store a decade ago when I lost access to some apps after moving to a new country. For a year or so, Apple didn't even allow me to upgrade macOS for some stupid bureaucratic reasons.)

New apps may not always support the same file formats as the old ones they replace. When that happens, you have to figure out what to do with old data.

Backup solutions are often platform-specific. If you switch platforms, you may have to rethink your backups and maybe even buy some new software/hardware.

Cloud services don't always work that well outside their preferred platforms, and you may have to replace them as well. The ones integrated into the OS, such as iCloud and OneDrive, are among the worst offenders, which is why I try to avoid them.

Peripherals and their drivers often cause issues in Linux, and sometimes the easiest solution is buying new ones. The situation is better in Windows – at least if you don't buy monitors from Apple.

So you currently use a 2019-2020 iMac with 128GB DRAM?

What apps do you use that require more than 128GB of DRAM?

If you’re staying Intel, you’ll need to go Xeon to go beyond 128GB of DRAM

The subtext of your comments indicates your more upset that Apple has dumped Intel than anything else.

 

[JouniS]

What apps do you use that require more than 128GB of DRAM?

The ones I develop. They run on cost-effective cloud instances that typically have 256-512 GB memory. Begin able to debug issues locally is a nice productivity boost.

If you’re staying Intel, you’ll need to go Xeon to go beyond 128GB of DRAM

Many Xeon/Threadripper systems are in the same price category as the Mac Studio with M1 Ultra.

The subtext of your comments indicates your more upset that Apple has dumped Intel than anything else.

A CPU is a CPU. Unified memory is the real issue. It's a good choice for laptops, but it constrains the capabilities of desktop systems unnecessarily.

 

[dieselm]

The ones I develop. They run on cost-effective cloud instances that typically have 256-512 GB memory. Begin able to debug issues locally is a nice productivity boost.

Many Xeon/Threadripper systems are in the same price category as the Mac Studio with M1 Ultra.

Fwiw, it sounds like you have a special case where you're actually not that cost sensitive. You need performance, no matter what. You probably don't care if a machine is small or quiet or pretty. Other people do.

We like that you can get an entry level M1 in a laptop, desktop or all in one form factor for around $1000, which is what Apple's current strategy enables. That entry level performance day-to-day for most people is as good as the high-end macs or Windows PCs costing much more, which is extraordinary.

A high memory apple silicon solution is coming. It's not like they don't want to get off the Intel Mac Pro platform.
And it'll probbaly have unified memory, which is a great programming model for all of us.

If you don't want to wait, an Intel Mac Pro exists for up to 1.5TB or buy a Xeon. What's exactly the complaint?

 

[dieselm]

It's because of vendor lock-in. If you are already using macOS and you need to replace a computer, you have to buy Apple hardware if you want to continue using macOS. If Apple charges unreasonable prices for anything that meets your needs, you have to pay the prices anyway, or you have to switch to Windows/Linux, which also costs time and money.

Then get off the train. There's tons of Windows options available at many price points. They just don't work with my phone, headphones, tablet or my wife and mother-in-law's devies. It's true, Apple's got me. Can't really leave. I'm okay with that.

Even if you want to own one of everything Apple makes (phone, watch, tablet, laptop, display, headphones), it's a couple hundred dollars a month. Trade-in or resell and upgrade every couple years. Is that so unreasonable?

 

[JouniS]

Fwiw, it sounds like you have a special case where you're actually not that cost sensitive. You need performance, no matter what. You probably don't care if a machine is small or quiet or pretty. Other people do.

On the contrary, I'm very cost-sensitive. I work in the academia, and we don't have as much loose money as private businesses. When I'm looking for a desktop computer, I'm willing to pay $5k but not $10k. I care more about capacity than performance. From my point of view, the only real difference between the M1 Pro and the M1 Ultra is that the Ultra supports more RAM. Additional performance would be nice, but I'm not willing to pay for it, because it doesn't improve my productivity that much.

Mac laptops, on the other hand, look real nice. A MBP with M1 Max is almost good enough to replace my current iMac. In the future, I may choose to save money by buying only one Mac instead of two. Apple's focus on power efficiency and integration means that desktops no longer have any significant advantage over laptops, unless you are willing to pay a much higher price.

 

[dieselm]

On the contrary, I'm very cost-sensitive. I work in the academia, and we don't have as much loose money as private businesses. When I'm looking for a desktop computer, I'm willing to pay $5k but not $10k. I care more about capacity than performance. From my point of view, the only real difference between the M1 Pro and the M1 Ultra is that the Ultra supports more RAM. Additional performance would be nice, but I'm not willing to pay for it, because it doesn't improve my productivity that much.

Why don't you buy a PC? You can certainly get what you're looking for for under $5k.

 

[JouniS]

Why don't you buy a PC? You can certainly get what you're looking for for under $5k.

I might buy the next time I need to upgrade. The iMac just happened to be good value for money in 2020.

 

[NightOne]

The most common example that comes to mind is the person who wants Apple to offer higher base storage capacity on a device. That’s essentially no different than saying they want more storage without having to pay for it.

So you would be fine with a car coming with a 5 gallon gas tank?

You could go 100-150 miles before having to refill. Who needs to go that far anyway?

90% of the people go to work and back and that is well within that range.

What? You want a 10 or 15 gallon tank without having to pay for it?

 

[NightOne]

May be it's not the computer for you.

It is not.

 

[NightOne]

Isn’t “lock-in” a bit of hyperbole?

No. As you pointed out the Apple ecosystem works best with Apple products.

Just to name the products that are in our little Apple ecosphere:

(2) 2017 27" iMacs
(2) 2019 27" iMacs
(2) Apple TV 4ks
(3) iPhone 12 Pros
12.9" iPad Pro
11" iPad Pro
iPad Mini
Apple Watch 7
(4) Apple AirTags
(2) Apple Airpods Pro
Apple Airpods Max (headphones)

Apple One Premiere Plan (Music, TV+, Arcade, iCloud+, News+, and Fitness+)
Apple Card
Paid Apple Software (Final Cut Pro etc.)

So just jumping back to Windows (that I left in 2005) is not a minor undertaking.

Not to mention all the malware/spyware/virus software you have to acquire and maintain for Windows (if that is still accurate)

So your past purchases do lock you in a bit unless I want to buy all new stuff in the other ecosphere.

Not to mention that I do not want to use any Google powered products of any kind.

 

[yabeweb]

It is not.

Then wait for the one for you.

I mean complaining that the one released is not the one you are waiting for won’t make them release another one any faster

 

[NightOne]

Then wait for the one for you.

I mean complaining that the one released is not the one you are waiting for won’t make them release another one any faster

Doesn't look that is EVER coming.

The bigger display iMacs are now discontinued and Apple has basically said there will not be a replacement for them.

I remember when buying an Apple desktop wasn't about compromise and you could mostly get what you want.

When I see the Rise of the Tomb Raider and Civ6 FPS scores for the $4000 Mac Studio with M1 Ultra it makes me want to puke. Yes, I know that Mac Studio is not a gaming rig and is yet another reason it is not a good 27" iMac replacement but to spend that kind of money on a desktop in 2022 and cannot even get 30 FPS in a 6 year old video game is disgusting. (can it play Pong I wonder) Again, not a gaming rig but a $4000 desktop should be able to at least spar with a $400 PS4 Pro gaming console in graphics performance.

"My maxed out $8000 Mac Studio is a super powerful Mac desktop but I cannot play Rise of the Tomb Raider on it" - LOLOLOLOL

The thing about the 27" iMac is that it was like a duck. It actually used a lot of "laptop" parts in the later models and was not a true desktop either but it was a duck.

A duck because:

1. it wasn't the best swimmer but it could swim

2. it wasn't the best flyer but it could fly

3. it wasn't the best walker/runner but it could walk/run

Other birds could do better at flying but were they good swimmers? etc.

This new Mac Studio is not a duck.

We want our ducks!!! LOL

 

[MacCheetah3]

Doesn't look that is EVER coming.

The bigger display iMacs are now discontinued and Apple has basically said there will not be a replacement for them.

I remember when buying an Apple desktop wasn't about compromise and you could mostly get what you want.

[...]

The thing about the 27" iMac is that it was like a duck. It actually used a lot of "laptop" parts in the later models and was not a true desktop either but it was a duck.

A duck because:

1. it wasn't the best swimmer but it could swim

2. it wasn't the best flyer but it could fly

3. it wasn't the best walker/runner but it could walk/run

Other birds could do better at flying but were they good swimmers? etc.

This new Mac Studio is not a duck.

We want our ducks!!! LOL

Did the definition of “compromise" change since I last looked it up? ☺️ (Sorry, I could not resist poking the bear.)

Anyway...

This also reminds me of a response I posted somewhat recently on a different forum, which a user was obsessed with getting a very high-tier gaming motherboard and ensuring the integrated 2-inch display was properly visible. Because of the PC components supply problem, this was going to be part of an SI build. Unfortunately, the only PC that properly accommodated an EATX motherboard was an inverted/inverse model. So, the onboard display would be upside down. I provided suggestions and examples of people implementing RPI screens or one of those portable laptop-sized monitors. Additionally, I noted it would be far more useful and cost effective. Nope! Ultimately, the person was so fixated on the idea, they were willing to purchase the pre-built PC (with hardline cooling loop as far as I was last aware), buy a different case, then transfer the components (presumably wasting the hardline tubing). So, numerous hours, hundreds of extra dollars, and still probably not exactly what they envisioned because of short-sightedness (even if temporary).

Therefore, I say to you… You’re allowed to have expectations/visions and cling to comforting pasts. However, when the vision doesn’t appear and the stubbornness keeps you bitter, it’s probably time for a reimagining. And if you turn down others’ help, that’s on you.

P.S. You can vent but so can we about your venting.

 

[NightOne]

This also reminds me of a response I posted somewhat recently on a different forum, which a user was obsessed with getting a very high-tier gaming motherboard and ensuring the integrated 2-inch display was properly visible. Because of the PC components supply problem, this was going to be part of an SI build. Unfortunately, the only PC that properly accommodated an EATX motherboard was an inverted/inverse model.

Did it have the TK-421 modification that kicks it up another 3 or 4 quads per channel?

 

[Ethosik]

"My maxed out $8000 Mac Studio is a super powerful Mac desktop but I cannot play Rise of the Tomb Raider on it" - LOLOLOLOL

Oh great, another "gaming" thread. I can play Tomb Raider on my M1 mac mini. Can I play it at 4k? No. Do I want to play it at 4k? No. But I can ****PLAY**** it.

I really find it irritating on the non stop threads (ever since I can remember back with the 2010 Mac Pro so well over a decade at this point) that "play" essentially means ULTRA MAX SETTINGS!!!!

I am not breaking any records here gaming on my Windows PC with a GTX 1080. Or when I still play games on my PS3.

 

[Appletoni]

Oh great, another "gaming" thread. I can play Tomb Raider on my M1 mac mini. Can I play it at 4k? No. Do I want to play it at 4k? No. But I can ****PLAY**** it.

I really find it irritating on the non stop threads (ever since I can remember back with the 2010 Mac Pro so well over a decade at this point) that "play" essentially means ULTRA MAX SETTINGS!!!!

I am not breaking any records here gaming on my Windows PC with a GTX 1080. Or when I still play games on my PS3.

I also use only ULTRA MAX SETTINGS.

If I pay a lot of money I want to have even something better than ultra max settings.

Of course you don’t need to play at 4k.
Of course you can play at 1080p.
You can also play at 720p.
Or 480p.
Or use a black/white monitor.

But others want to have at least 4k or 8k for playing games.

 

[yabeweb]

When I see the Rise of the Tomb Raider and Civ6 FPS scores for the $4000 Mac Studio with M1 Ultra it makes me want to puke. Yes, I know that Mac Studio is not a gaming rig..

Lost me there, you say you know it's not a gaming rig, but probably not.

The last thing I would do with a Mac Studio it's gaming.

If gaming is your thing buy a PC, they cost less and offer more in that field, there is also more variety in games available.

A 4000 dollar desktop does not have to do what a 400 console does, it's like saying a 200.000 Ferrari should climb mountains like a 50.000 Wrangler.

Heck there are servers that cost 20.000 or more and guess what, they do not even have a graphic card, spending more it's not to gain faster gaming.

If I pay 4000 dollars for a machine catered to specific needs, I want that machine to be optimized for such needs.

The Mac Studio can still do gaming, I think it is not fair to compare it to a Console.

Actually, even 1000 $ pc cannot compare to a PS5 / Xbox X, heck my PC (9600K 32 gb ram and 3080 ) cannot run FS 2020 as the Xbox Does, yet the Xbox is a fraction of the price of my PC.

We are Also comparing a 2013 Game not fully made for Apple silicon with cames custom made to run on specific console, Apple to Oranges


I think it is remarkable that it runs that well under "emulation".

Wonder how fast a PS5 can render a 4k video.... oh wait it cannot.

I also use only ULTRA MAX SETTINGS.

If I pay a lot of money I want to have even something better than ultra max settings.

Of course you don’t need to play at 4k.
Of course you can play at 1080p.
You can also play at 720p.
Or 480p.
Or use a black/white monitor.

But others want to have at least 4k or 8k for playing games.

True, but you'd be a fool to want to play at max settings with a computer that is not made for that, get a Console or a Gaming PC

 

[NightOne]

Oh great, another "gaming" thread. I can play Tomb Raider on my M1 mac mini. Can I play it at 4k? No. Do I want to play it at 4k? No. But I can ****PLAY**** it.

I really find it irritating on the non stop threads (ever since I can remember back with the 2010 Mac Pro so well over a decade at this point) that "play" essentially means ULTRA MAX SETTINGS!!!!

I am not breaking any records here gaming on my Windows PC with a GTX 1080. Or when I still play games on my PS3.

Yes, no one should expect a Mac to be able to play games like every other computer in the world. Some may accept this. I do not.

PS3? PS3? WTF? LOL

 

[NightOne]

Lost me there, you say you know it's not a gaming rig, but probably not.

The last thing I would do with a Mac Studio it's gaming.

If gaming is your thing buy a PC, they cost less and offer more in that field, there is also more variety in games available.

A 4000 dollar desktop does not have to do what a 400 console does, it's like saying a 200.000 Ferrari should climb mountains like a 50.000 Wrangler.

Heck there are servers that cost 20.000 or more and guess what, they do not even have a graphic card, spending more it's not to gain faster gaming.

If I pay 4000 dollars for a machine catered to specific needs, I want that machine to be optimized for such needs.

The Mac Studio can still do gaming, I think it is not fair to compare it to a Console.

Actually, even 1000 $ pc cannot compare to a PS5 / Xbox X, heck my PC (9600K 32 gb ram and 3080 ) cannot run FS 2020 as the Xbox Does, yet the Xbox is a fraction of the price of my PC.

We are Also comparing a 2013 Game not fully made for Apple silicon with cames custom made to run on specific console, Apple to Oranges


I think it is remarkable that it runs that well under "emulation".

Wonder how fast a PS5 can render a 4k video.... oh wait it cannot.



True, but you'd be a fool to want to play at max settings with a computer that is not made for that, get a Console or a Gaming PC

Then don't discontinue my 27" iMac and tell me the Mac Studio is the upgrade. (and the base M1 stuff is a downgrade)

I own a PS5, XBox One Series X, and a Nintendo Switch OLED so I do have gaming covered.

However, any computer in 2022 that doesn't have decent 3D graphics performance to play a 6 year old game is LUDICROUS!!! I'm not talking some new cutting edge title here. (Or asking for 120 FPS)

And is Apple's solution really "buy a PC"? I highly doubt it.

 

[NT1440]

Then don't discontinue my 27" iMac and tell me the Mac Studio is the upgrade. (and the base M1 stuff is a downgrade)

I own a PS5, XBox One Series X, and a Nintendo Switch OLED so I do have gaming covered.

However, any computer in 2022 that doesn't have decent 3D graphics performance to play a 6 year old game is LUDICROUS!!! I'm not talking some new cutting edge title here. (Or asking for 120 FPS)

And is Apple's solution really "buy a PC"? I highly doubt it.

You keep saying you know it’s not a gaming machine, but your gripes are centered entirely around gaming.

It seems you’re just personally insulted that this device isn’t even remotely marketed towards the things you care about.