Has Apple Silicon made you reconsider the Mac platform?

[maflynn]

Well... question is if a move like this would drive away customers. My guess would be: Hell, yes.

Its all conjecture to be sure, but I'm of the opinion that such a move would not drive people away. MacOS is now fully on a closed proprietary platform. Its the next logical step to disallow "side loading" and require all apps go through the app store - in the name of security and consumer protection of course

 

[LeeW]

Its the next logical step to disallow "side loading" and require all apps go through the app store - in the name of security and consumer protection of course

Exactly this. I agree that most users will not move. For the vast majority, it makes no difference to them where the app/software comes from.

Certainly for most the App store is all they need and prefer to rely on and as @maflynn suggests, in the name of security and protection before Apple even need to say it.

It is in Apples interests to have everything flow through the App store. I really believe it is not whether they want this to happen but how they can make it happen.

 

[c0ppo]

Its all conjecture to be sure, but I'm of the opinion that such a move would not drive people away. MacOS is now fully on a closed proprietary platform. Its the next logical step to disallow "side loading" and require all apps go through the app store - in the name of security and consumer protection of course

I agree that the most of users would stay. They would actually welcome the move.
But there is a problem for Apple there. When Apple abandoned the 'pro' market with not updating Mac Pro, Apple felt it. Most of pros moved on to other platforms.

Now it's not a revenue issues. Mac Pro doesn't make a lot of money for Apple, if any at all.
But it's the prestige that the computer geeks use Apple computers. So if it's good enough for those, it's good enough for regular folks. That's the main reason Apple was so motivated to fix the entire situation.

Likewise, if they go with locking down, they will loose developers. And a lot of them. Many people don't realize this, but macs are rather popular with web developers for example. And there is a reason for that. Linux like machine that has almost all of software? That beats Windows 10 for development easily.

If you take away freedom to install whatever, those people are gone. Developers tend to use terminal/git/custom scripts a lot. With locking down, all of that is gone.

Only developers remaining are those who develop for iOS and MacOS. And loosing developers will hurt Apple, and I think Apple is aware of that. Just look what happened to MS. They lost a lot of 3rd party developers, so once their mobile platform rolled out, developers didn't care. Those developers who produced software for Windows, sticked with just Windows. Even today most of developers on .NET platform don't care about UWP or ARM builds.

Apple has developers attention at the moment. But they can easily loose that. It's not a blind love just because it's Apple. It's mutual benefit relationship. If developers see their lives made harder, they will leave. To Windows or to Linux. Those kind of people can easily switch platforms, they tend to adapt to something different way easier than regular folks.

 

[09872738]

Its all conjecture to be sure, but I'm of the opinion that such a move would not drive people away. MacOS is now fully on a closed proprietary platform. Its the next logical step to disallow "side loading" and require all apps go through the app store - in the name of security and consumer protection of course

It would almost certainly drive me away, and I am/have been a Mac developer for decades.
Its also not that easy technically: how would they go about developer tools? Appstore only would entail its impossible to run self-developed apps. While this could probably soved for Xcode (dev certificates, notarization or whatever), how about third party tools (thinking: Intellij? Qt Creator?)?
How about Docker?
Locking it all down has the potential of killing all developer activity, certainly developer’s love on the Mac.

 

[LeeW]

Many people don't realize this, but macs are rather popular with web developers for example.

Many of us have already moved away, as a community there is a significant resurgence of Windows users hitherto bound to Apple. Not suggesting in any way the numbers are so significant to affect Apple but it's enough for it to be very noticeable for the 1st time in many years.

Windows is getting better and better for those of us in web development.

Having said that I don't believe the level of lockdown if Apple was to go in that direction would stop people like me installing the tools I need to do web development. It would be a more subtle approach.

For example, if you put a non-genuine battery or camera in the iPhone now there are warnings in the settings and the future suggestion is that the lock screen will tell you. It's that level of subtle but annoying. Install software through the App store, all good. Install it from anywhere else and expect those annoyances of 'is this genuine' and so on.

They will find a way to steer users more towards the app store without having to force the developers directly to service users from it.

 

[maflynn]

It would almost certainly drive me away

Understood, but that doesn't mean a large scale exodus. Just look at the ARM transition, that caused some people to leave but by and large Apple has seemingly increased sales not lost sales.

With what I'm conjecturing, we'd see maybe some complaining, but that's about it. People choose Macs for a reason, that reason won't change with Apple's continuing to lock the environment down.

Locking it all down has the potential of killing all developer activity, certainly developer’s love on the Mac.

I don't see how that could be, as a developer you already have access to the tools you need, having apps flow through the MAS doesn't really change things.

 

[ctjack]

For example, if you put a non-genuine battery or camera in the iPhone now there are warnings in the settings and the future suggestion is that the lock screen will tell you. It's that level of subtle but annoying.

I found this to be annoying for following reasons:
1) Apple identified all of the modules to be non-genuine, unless you do repairs with AC+. So basically, i have now shattered screen iphone 8+, and i find icloud locked from ebay to replace screen, and i will get dimmer screen which will scream that it is not genuine. The same applies to cameras, in case you want to replace them from other genuine Apple smartphone. This was implemented long time ago with touch id, which is non-transferrable.
News told that if you replace camera from other simillar iphone, you will get not only messages but also reduced camera capabilities like no video, autofocus and etc.

Basically they are locking the ability of self-repair with this 12 iPhones now in the future.

 

[Kung gu]

Agree with all your post. In ref to the above, it's good they reverted it...but why do it in the first place? This line in the MR article is the key point: "Apple this week implemented a server side blocking mechanism"

It's yet another example of Apple control creeping in, worryingly to the Mac platform. Even if they reversed it, there's nothing stopping them doing it again. Only techies are going to be messing around with side loading apps anyway, it's nothing the average person would even have a clue about, so why flick the kill switch?

I dunno. I think it just warrants pause for thought. iOS has always been a platform where you can only do what Apple deems fit and proper (good luck torrenting or using an alternative YouTube app, for example) and it seems like with the total control of the entire hardware stack on Apple Silicon, it's only a matter of time before macOS starts heading that way.

Oh my goodness, you do know even MS has server side blocking mechanisms in Windows 10.

Also I don't why people think that Apple will lock down macOS, if they do it won't be "macOS" it be iOS/iPadOS.

Apple could have blocked torrenting on Mac ages ago, on intel Macs even but they did not.

As I said before Apple added custom kernel support in 11.2 and that enabled Corellium to boot and run Linux on M1 with everything working expect hardware GPU acceleration. Expect GPU support to come within a few weeks.

As the year moves forward, it be easier to see what Apple wants to do with Mac platform.

 

[LeeW]

I think a message about non-genuine parts in the device is actually good. Well for the used market. If you buy a phone you can tell if parts have been replaced with non-genuine Apple. You are not going to pay the top $ for a phone with potentially inferior parts. And it will be more difficult for someone to sell you a repaired phone.

But keep the message in the background, let people know where to look but that is all. As noted above, if I chose to replace the battery or camera in my phone, that is my choice. It should not mean my phones abilities are reduced or have a message displayed on my lock screen.

 

[Kung gu]

News told that if you replace camera from other simillar iphone, you will get not only messages but also reduced camera capabilities like no video, autofocus and etc.

They fixed issue in 14.4, even if you have a camera from another phone it still works.
Source: go look at Hugh Jeffery's latest iPhone 12 video

 

[Kung gu]

Its the next logical step to disallow "side loading" and require all apps go through the app store - in the name of security and consumer protection of course

Notice the similarities, oh no the Windows 10 is gonna be locked down to Microsoft Store only.
Now imagine how the Windows crowd will react if Microsoft did this.
It's funny how the people in this thread see Apple is adamant to lock the Mac down and Mac users will be okay with
it.

@maflynn MS says installing apps from the MS store, "protect your PC" and "keep it running smoothly"
lol

Just cause they have a store, does not mean Apple will lock it App Store only.

 

[Kung gu]

It would almost certainly drive me away, and I am/have been a Mac developer for decades.
Its also not that easy technically: how would they go about developer tools? Appstore only would entail its impossible to run self-developed apps. While this could probably soved for Xcode (dev certificates, notarization or whatever), how about third party tools (thinking: Intellij? Qt Creator?)?
How about Docker?
Locking it all down has the potential of killing all developer activity, certainly developer’s love on the Mac.

the fact that apple previewed docker at WWDC, shows that apple does know that devs like the Mac to remain open and apps on the Mac should be side loaded from wherever.

If you take a look at the WWDC videos on Apple developer website, they said they the Mac will remain open to devs.
Also SIP can be disabled on M1 Macs.

The day SIP can't be disabled is when apple truely locked down the Mac.

 

[ctjack]

They fixed issue in 14.4, even if you have a camera from another phone it still works.
Source: go look at Hugh Jeffery's latest iPhone 12 video

Thanks checked back that video, here is the summary:
1) "Camera was fixed in 14.4 only thanks for the media noise i made about this issue."
So if Hugh wouldn't flood youtube with his videos and tests, Apple might get away with it.
2) Motherboard swapping still reduces the functionality of the phone. And MB swapping is the thing which saved me and my spouse 2 iphones while traveling to countries with no Apple Store.
3) Only Apple can link your parts together after repair and future software may or may not be released.

 

[xraydoc]

The battery in my SurfaceBook 2 has continued to deteriorate. I now can get only around 3.5 hours in “recommended” power mode and maybe 5 hours in “battery saver” mode, which unfortunately kills performance significantly.

Decided to give the M1 platform a try. Going with a MacBook Air (16/512) as a stark alternative to the relatively heavy SB2. Should arrive in about 2 weeks.

Will report back...

 

[thunng8]

Understood, but that doesn't mean a large scale exodus. Just look at the ARM transition, that caused some people to leave but by and large Apple has seemingly increased sales not lost sales.

With what I'm conjecturing, we'd see maybe some complaining, but that's about it. People choose Macs for a reason, that reason won't change with Apple's continuing to lock the environment down.


I don't see how that could be, as a developer you already have access to the tools you need, having apps flow through the MAS doesn't really change things.

It’s not going to happen. Apple has even been official about in many wwdc sessions that it won’t happen.

I have no idea why you keep on bringing this up. What is your agenda?

 

[c0ppo]

It’s not going to happen. Apple has even been official about in many wwdc sessions that it won’t happen.

I have no idea why you keep on bringing this up. What is your agenda?

No body is claiming it will happen 100%.
I believe most of us are claiming it can happen. And it can!
Doesn't mean it will.

 

[LeeW]

I have no idea why you keep on bringing this up. What is your agenda?

It is in Apples DNA to find ways that will both lock people further into the ecosystem and grow revenue. There are limited ways in which it can do this. Forcing or directing users to only use the app store is one way to further that goal.

No guarantee, but it's a discussion of the potential. They can repeat daily that they won't do anything like this and then tomorrow do it. That's Apple.

 

[maflynn]

It’s not going to happen. Apple has even been official about in many wwdc sessions that it won’t happen.

I disagree - its my opinion, as others stated, its not that it will happen, but that it could happen.

I have no idea why you keep on bringing this up. What is your agenda?

I have no such agenda, just pointing out the obvious that apple looks at monetizing everywhere it can, it also looks to control everywhere it can, so now that Macs are on a closed proprietary platform, it can in time choose to lock down how apps are installed

 

[thunng8]

I disagree - its my opinion, as others stated, its not that it will happen, but that it could happen.


I have no such agenda, just pointing out the obvious that apple looks at monetizing everywhere it can, it also looks to control everywhere it can, so now that Macs are on a closed proprietary platform, it can in time choose to lock down how apps are installed

So you are saying Apple is lying in all those sessions? Craig Federghini is on record saying it won't happen. I would trust them more than your "opinion".

Look - they already have a locked down operating system, why would they want another one? If that was their plan, they would just kill Mac OS and be done with it.

And they don't need to have moved to Apple Silicon if they wanted to lock down the operating system - they could have done it long ago with Intel hardware. You are just confusing hardware and software.

BTW, this is not my opinion, this is the official stance from Apple. If they do change this stance, there will be an uproar. There won't need to be a WWDC anymore because who can develop with a locked down operating system? - it just can't happen, if you've done any serious development before you would know this.

 

[maflynn]

So you are saying Apple is lying in all those sessions? Craig Federghini is on record saying it won't happen. I would trust them more than your "opinion".

Companies "change direction" all the time, I wouldn't call it lying, You hide behind a concept that if a company says one thing, they'll never ever go back on that. I wouldn't take an employee's comment as gospel, it can and will change as the market conditions change.

Here's some nice quips about from Steve Jobs (link) where he's basically saying apple won't do x, y or z and yet they do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"Who wants a stylus?" Jobs said while introducing the iPhone. "You have to get 'em, put 'em away, you lose 'em. Yuck! Nobody wants a stylus. So let's not use a stylus."

Another epic Jobs rant came in October 2010, when he discussed his disdain for a new wave of smaller tablets coming to market.

On the company's earnings call with analysts, Jobs said the iPad's 10-inch screen was "the minimum size required to create great tablet apps."

When a reporter asked him whether Apple would consider making a bigger iPhone to improve antenna reliability, Jobs scoffed. He called Samsung's Galaxy S phones "Hummers."

"You can't get your hand around it," Jobs said. "No one's going to buy that."

Apple finally debuted a taller iPhone 5 a year after Jobs died, and a much larger iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus last year.

why would they want another one?

$$ pure and simple

And they don't need to have moved to Apple Silicon if they wanted to lock down the operating system - they could have done it long ago with Intel hardware. You are just confusing hardware and software.

Agreed, and they've been moving to locking the Macs down prior to ARM. Try to install Linux on the internal drive and you'll see you can't.

BTW, this is not my opinion, this is the official stance from Apple.

And its worth the paper its written on.

If they do change this stance, there will be an uproar

To some degree, yes of course. But at the end of the day, where will Mac users go? Just look at the typical mac user here, and many (most?) hate windows. So many of them will unlikely switch, even after much grousing. Looking at typical consumers, who show up at an apple store to buy their son/daughter a computer - will they care if have to get their apps through the app store, no.

it just can't happen

Now that's your opinion and not Apple's official stance

There won't need to be a WWDC anymore because who can develop with a locked down operating system?

Please explain? Xcode can (is?) in the app store, and they'll be able to "install" apps they're working on just like they do on iOS devices prior to getting approved in the app store.

 

[thunng8]

Companies "change direction" all the time, I wouldn't call it lying, You hide behind a concept that if a company says one thing, they'll never ever go back on that. I wouldn't take an employee's comment as gospel, it can and will change as the market conditions change.

Here's some nice quips about from Steve Jobs (link) where he's basically saying apple won't do x, y or z and yet they do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯







$$ pure and simple



Agreed, and they've been moving to locking the Macs down prior to ARM. Try to install Linux on the internal drive and you'll see you can't.


And its worth the paper its written on.


To some degree, yes of course. But at the end of the day, where will Mac users go? Just look at the typical mac user here, and many (most?) hate windows. So many of them will unlikely switch, even after much grousing. Looking at typical consumers, who show up at an apple store to buy their son/daughter a computer - will they care if have to get their apps through the app store, no.


Now that's your opinion and not Apple's official stance


Please explain? Xcode can (is?) in the app store, and they'll be able to "install" apps they're working on just like they do on iOS devices prior to getting approved in the app store.

There is much here worth replying to. Again - not sure what your agenda is. Is there some serious hatred you have for Apple That you spout such nonsense?

There is much more to application development than just Xcode - like I said if you do any serious development you would know this. Guess you haven’t done any.

 

[maflynn]

<content deleted>
Never mind, not worth beating a dead horse.

 

[MBAir2010]

how did the question of someone possible switching to apple (or back to) turn into a dart board?
for me, Mojave was so impressive i decided to stay with apple.
I'm looking forward to getting an M1 soon.

 

[The_Interloper]

Again - not sure what your agenda is. Is there some serious hatred you have for Apple That you spout such nonsense?

Why does someone have to have an "agenda" to theorise whether or not Apple will change course on macOS (or anything for that matter)? If @maflynn hated Apple so much, I don't think he'd be a Mod on MacRumors.

Look, I've been an Apple customer for over 25 years and I've been burned by them many, many times. Switching from PowerPC to Intel (when I'd just bought a G5 Mac Pro), killing off Aperture, gutting the iWork suite, the appalling butterfly keyboards, iPad "touch disease". Those are just ones that spring to mind.

Despite that, I'm still a customer as they make better products than the competition for the most part IMO. That doesn't mean I can't question their business practices or future intentions without having an "agenda". It's part of healthy debate. Criticism can be constructive and doesn't mean you "hate Apple" - and if you did, so what? They're an enormous multinational whose only concerns are shareholder profit and self-preservation. Their practices and intent deserve to be scrutinised by their very nature as a profit-making company.

 

[LeeW]

Is there some serious hatred you have for Apple That you spout such nonsense?

Well, that could easily be turned around that you have it so bad for Apple that you refuse to accept any discussion/opinion that differs from your own. You have made your point, that's fine. Move on.