Totally agree as much as I hate to but those are the facts today and I really can't see Intel/AMD pulling anything out of the hat anytime soon. But then I wouldn't expect them to.
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Has Apple Silicon made you reconsider the Mac platform?
- Thread starter The_Interloper
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The problem with responsiveness is that when you purposely slow down your system then turn around and speed it back up again... you aren't actually improving anything... you're just undoing what you did before.
Case in point... APFS. Here is a file system designed to run like utter crap on mechanical drives. Same computer running MacOS extended is 10 times faster than APFS. People put SSD drives in their systems to make up for this imposed slowdown. How much of a speed improvement really was it? I suspect not nearly as much as compared to say a Mac running High Sierra. Then the tables were turned... the SSDs performed worse under MacOS extended than APFS.
Now you have SoCs... hardwire that RAM right next to the CPU and wow, what a speed reduction over a system that had it all the way on the other end of a motherboard.
Let's be real here. You write code assuming more RAM is going to make up for your sloppiness... then turn around and clean up you coding... you haven't really made a system that requires less RAM. But it can sure look that way.
These new M1s aren't the second coming... the second coming is when everyone is using SoCs and then come up with something that makes even these look slow. Based on current architecture that has been bloating over the decades... anything would appear faster just by removing said bloat you put there in the first place.
Case in point... APFS. Here is a file system designed to run like utter crap on mechanical drives. Same computer running MacOS extended is 10 times faster than APFS. People put SSD drives in their systems to make up for this imposed slowdown. How much of a speed improvement really was it? I suspect not nearly as much as compared to say a Mac running High Sierra. Then the tables were turned... the SSDs performed worse under MacOS extended than APFS.
Now you have SoCs... hardwire that RAM right next to the CPU and wow, what a speed reduction over a system that had it all the way on the other end of a motherboard.
Let's be real here. You write code assuming more RAM is going to make up for your sloppiness... then turn around and clean up you coding... you haven't really made a system that requires less RAM. But it can sure look that way.
These new M1s aren't the second coming... the second coming is when everyone is using SoCs and then come up with something that makes even these look slow. Based on current architecture that has been bloating over the decades... anything would appear faster just by removing said bloat you put there in the first place.
NO; not considering the mac platform any more as apple's quality/ functionality does not match the cost
just saying the junk is expensive
the bloated "mac platform" is getting increasingly proprietary and narrow
just saying the junk is expensive
the bloated "mac platform" is getting increasingly proprietary and narrow
APFS is new. And as new, it was made for SSD. Because who uses mechanical drives for their OS and app install in premium machines?
Why would you optimize it for HDD?
EXT4, btrfs and APFS are all miles ahead of NTFS. NTFS is slow and dated. I simply don't see the argument you are making here. At all.
Honestly, I can't claim that they are. But I think that they will be. Performance per watt is out of the charts. Nothing can compare to it at this moment.
Maybe someone will make a better chip in a year or two, who knows?
But you are claiming it as a fact. On what facts are you basing your claims?
Yep I think it's great the M1 gives you Ferrari like performance but for the price on an Audi
Sticking with simple car analogy we know the shortcomings of a sports car for mum or dad on a school run and that's what we have with Gen 1
I am just amazed how everyone is beguiled by the 0-60 time and almost skimped over all the short comings that were the standard requirements of premium products
Are we confident that the M1 is not already maxed out for the foreseeable and it will be software and peripherals catch for the next couple of years
But sure other CPU OEM's seem to be spinning their nuts of in neutral LOL
True, equally many of the SW limitations will diminish in time as ever more Dev houses update their applications, or even come onboard with OS X.Yep I think it's great the M1 gives you Ferrari like performance but for the price on an Audi
Sticking with simple car analogy we know the shortcomings of a sports car for mum or dad on a school run and that's what we have with Gen 1
I am just amazed how everyone is beguiled by the 0-60 time and almost skimped over all the short comings that were the standard requirements of premium products
Are we confident that the M1 is not already maxed out for the foreseeable and it will be software and peripherals catch for the next couple of years
But sure other CPU OEM's seem to be spinning their nuts of in neutral LOL
In many respect the M1 is something that you have to experience. If the computer will run what you need, the other limitations will simply fade away as the new M1 Mac's are that fast. Yes Apple of today has a tendency to embellish as do the majority of the PC OEM's, however I seriously doubt that Apple would be on this path if it didn't have far more powerful SOC's in hand. You have to be mindful Apple is looking to apply it's own silicon to the Mac Pro, so they must be very confident of again considerable performance gains, lest Apple face the scrutiny of the tech press & public.
The M1"s are complete step change in personal computing, providing a superb user experience in Apple's ecosystem. I've not liked what Apple has done with the Mac for over 5 years. Yet what Apple has done with M1 seriously impresses, it's not all I'd want, likely down the limitations of the 1st Gen M1 SOC and of course Apple's philosophy.
You have to think you now have a 13" Ultraportable notebook that outperforms the vast majority of 15" & 17" notebooks... As long as you can get the SW to work there are few downsides, same as W10 you have to accept a level of intrusion and with Apple greater control of the OS by the OEM.
Frankly this is a very big change in computing, well and truly overdue IMO. I also feel that Apple is making "some" change for the better after half a decade of strong criticism. I've always discussed Value, never pricing and for the first time since 2016 I believe the value does once again exist.
Frankly for $999 the base is a solid purchase for the average user with still very strong performance. Yes you'll get more utility with a W10 2in1, Pen & Touch support and a slightly broader port solution, however you will not come close to this performance which also translates to a near seamless user experience. I know as I've got my own fair share of Windows notebooks & 2in1's.
dGPU aside the M1 13" demolishes this 17" Asus with i7 8750H and it's tested as being one of the fastest ever, something like 3rd place with full stock W10 Pro, not some stripped down version aimed at bench tests. Yes the Asus has far more over all capability, equally one is the pinnacle of it's time in a trapped by a stagnating architecture and one is just starting the journey...
If you use an M1 you'll see for yourself as for Windows Apple seem to have no issue if Microsoft decides to develop W10, sell & license on the platform which will bring back BootCamp for a lack of better words. Right now I think Apple has the attention of many, if Apple delivers on the 16" MBP and the desktop range, then you'll really see the momentum start...
Q-6
I am hearing a lot of good things at the moment with the preview version of Parallels for M1, most are saying that the ARM version of W10 runs incredibly well. I don't think we are going to be too far away from being able to run it via Bootcamp or however they may do it now.
Although, I think it will end up killing the battery life.
The backward compatibility is both the best and the worst things about Windows 10.
I like my Windows 10 machine with discrete graphics hardware that was available for under US$1000 in 2018. Currently, the more powerful laptop computers available eclipse what my machine can do but it's still fine, and so is my mid-2012 MacBook Pro.
However, the variety of software helps. If you don't like some software, there is always an alternative. macOS Catalina certainly seemed to slim the already slim choices, although productivity software abounds. Apple has to do better.
Except Windows on ARM is a generation behind macOS on ARM in terms of compatibility and performance. For example, the DropBox file explorer integration doesn't work on Windows for ARM.If "weight, size, cool & fanless operation, and battery life of the M1 MBA ticks all the right boxes" and you want LTE all for $400 less then the Samsung Book S beats it, other than performance
Do we really want to start a lists on all the things that wont run on macOS
they both have shortfalls in that areaIn some respects Apple macOS on arm is generations behind Windows simply as MS and others have been developing touch/pen/LTE/2 in 1 and many other things for years now on full OS let alone support for enterprise and gaming
The M1 enabled Mac's are a marvel of performance and endurance but these 1st gen devices are stinted in some aspects currently and are not as complete as they should be, but will get better as to will W10 on arm with 64 bit support on its way
Not starting a flame war at all. Just making a statement that a few of the things I personally require and rely upon don't currently run on Windows for ARM, unfortunately making it an unsuitable platform for me at present. They do, however, run on the M1.Do we really want to start a lists on all the things that wont run on macOS
In some respects Apple macOS on arm is generations behind Windows simply as MS and others have been developing touch/pen/LTE/2 in 1 and many other things for years now on full OS let alone support for enterprise and gaming
The M1 enabled Mac's are a marvel of performance and endurance but these 1st gen devices are stinted in some aspects currently and are not as complete as they should be, but will get better as to will W10 on arm with 64 bit support on its way
So any new laptop for me will have to be either an x86-based (Intel, AMD) PC or a Mac of either Intel or M1 variety.
If the Windows on ARM software situation improves in the short term before I decide to make a purchase, then all the better -- choices are good and something like the Surface Pro X would be interesting.
But for the right-now, my solutions can't include an ARM-based Windows laptop.
I broke down. I just have to see what it is. 16/1TB MBP showed up in my local Apple store, got Apple card, with Apple care and trade in of my 2018 2.2 MBP will pay around $80 a month for a year. I leave bar tabs higher than that in one sitting. Worst case it will end up as kitchen laptop replacing wife's 12'' Macbook.
It kind of reminds me of the good ol' days with Motorola CPUs and 'Intel Outside' stickers. Finally something different than just nicely done x86 laptop.
It kind of reminds me of the good ol' days with Motorola CPUs and 'Intel Outside' stickers. Finally something different than just nicely done x86 laptop.
I don't disagree
For me both the ARM W10 or ARM macOS are a no go for now
However for my wife the Samsung Book S is a great replacement for her 12" MB.
It beats MB obviously on all fronts including footprint and other than grunt of the new Arm MBA that she does not need, has all the basis covered plus great endurance, fan less, 0 heat for a lot less $
5 days in with the MacBook Pro M1 and I'm really struggling to use much else. I don't want to bang on about video rendering speeds but an almost 2-hour movie at H264 1080p took 18m30s to export (on battery) from DaVinci Resolve 17 Beta. The same file took:
24 mins on the i5 six-core 2018 Mini using FCPX
52 mins on the i5 six-core 2018 Mini using DaVinci Resolve (no hardware encode)
22 mins on 3.7 GHz Ryzen 7 octa-core PC with NVENC using Pinnacle Studio
36 mins on 3.7 GHz Ryzen 7 octa-core PC using DaVinci Resolve (no hardware encode)
I've installed Parallels Desktop 16 Public Beta and Windows on ARM (Insider Channel) works fine; using Dragon Professional Individual 15.3 (64-bit Intel app under emulation), performance is excellent and almost indistinguishable from native usage. No heat, no throttling, no fans spinning.
This is a very positive step for running Windows x86 apps on M1 (as long as Microsoft eventually provide licensing for WoA). I am finding it very, very difficult to envisage using Intel machines in the future unless I have to.
Battery was last charged on Monday afternoon, down to 44% at present with many hours of usage including a 2-hour Zoom meeting last night.
24 mins on the i5 six-core 2018 Mini using FCPX
52 mins on the i5 six-core 2018 Mini using DaVinci Resolve (no hardware encode)
22 mins on 3.7 GHz Ryzen 7 octa-core PC with NVENC using Pinnacle Studio
36 mins on 3.7 GHz Ryzen 7 octa-core PC using DaVinci Resolve (no hardware encode)
I've installed Parallels Desktop 16 Public Beta and Windows on ARM (Insider Channel) works fine; using Dragon Professional Individual 15.3 (64-bit Intel app under emulation), performance is excellent and almost indistinguishable from native usage. No heat, no throttling, no fans spinning.
This is a very positive step for running Windows x86 apps on M1 (as long as Microsoft eventually provide licensing for WoA). I am finding it very, very difficult to envisage using Intel machines in the future unless I have to.
Battery was last charged on Monday afternoon, down to 44% at present with many hours of usage including a 2-hour Zoom meeting last night.
I bought the 16/512 MBP. Being largely platform agnostic (all the software I use professionally is subscription based and available both on win and Mac) I decided to give a shot to Apple.
I won't give up my windows desktop but for the mobile part, at least right now, Apple is the way to go.
To be honest, the fact that I had some rough times with windows last 18 months was the right incentive to try Apple again.
I won't give up my windows desktop but for the mobile part, at least right now, Apple is the way to go.
To be honest, the fact that I had some rough times with windows last 18 months was the right incentive to try Apple again.
I agree, the new MacBook Pro is amazing. =)
Too bad gaming support is so poor on MacOS and bootcamp is not supported, since these could also be excellent gaming devices.
In my very brief experience, Windows emulation still has huge problem. It's impressive as a demo, but not (yet?) viable as a dual-os setup. Apart from the bugs, the biggest issue to me is that many of Microsoft's own UWP apps do not work, because they are ARM32-bit and the M1 is a 64-bit-only ARM processor. They should be recompiled for 64-bit but we do not know if and when Microsoft intends to do so.
Technical issues can be sorted out, if Microsoft agrees to license Windows on ARM.
I still far prefer Windows and my Surface Pro to any Mac, but the performance gap is hard to ignore at this particular point in time.
I like Windows and Surface hardware too. But, yes, the performance of these new M1's is startling. My quad-core i5 Surface Book 2 feels really sluggish after using this.
I've honestly never known this. Windows PCs have always meant more performance per dollar; what's the landscape going to look like in 1-2 years time? How on Earth can Wintel match this?
I don't think they need to entirely match Apple's performances, but they should try to reduce the gap. The graphic chip in the 11th gen intel was a great step in the right direction but not enough to compensate for years of stagnation.
Thermals are a huge concern: my fanless Surface Pro 7 performances are more than adequate when the machine is cool, but it throttles SO easily and then it becomes...not good at all!
On the ARM side, I think the only company who can potentially catch up with Apple is Samsung. Given that Microsoft and Samsung have been very close lately, I wouldn't be surprise if they co-develop an Exynos processor with good to great performances in the future. Exynos processors have always been mediocre, but this year's Exynos 2100 seems to be better than the best Snapdragon. Promising =)
PS: that said, the M1 is the worst processor that Apple will ever put inside an ARM Mac and we are comparing it with the best from everyone else. On the Macbook Pro, the M1 runs so quiet and so cool that it almost seems like Apple is holding it back. Peak performance = sustained performance is something very rare for modern laptops. They have something bigger in the pipeline.
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Apple will steal some of the windows users....casual users at least...windows is so ancient and it shows whos the CEO now and what is his vision and his bussiness. Apple in 2-3 years, like the ipad and iphone is now...they will offer a mac for every price points...with the best in value/performance in class. A macbook air with M chip starting from 499-599$ and probably/maybe a mac mini from 399$
Almost Nobody that is not locked into an OS will want an intel windows IF windows devices doesn't come up with the competition
Now the big companies AAA companies are already starting to thing about ARM platform because this will be the future
Arm will be big , for servers, for pro and normal devices, and don;t expect next consoles in 2027/2028 not to be ARM based . So whos not thinking to make their future games/apps compatible for arm too...is loosing money for a fraction of work...because its easier to build from the start for arm architecture as well...than to port x86 for arm...
UK is already going full arm until 2030, and big titles will also support arm x86 and console as well
Only small dev will develop just for x86 or just for one platform
Almost Nobody that is not locked into an OS will want an intel windows IF windows devices doesn't come up with the competition
Now the big companies AAA companies are already starting to thing about ARM platform because this will be the future
Arm will be big , for servers, for pro and normal devices, and don;t expect next consoles in 2027/2028 not to be ARM based . So whos not thinking to make their future games/apps compatible for arm too...is loosing money for a fraction of work...because its easier to build from the start for arm architecture as well...than to port x86 for arm...
UK is already going full arm until 2030, and big titles will also support arm x86 and console as well
Only small dev will develop just for x86 or just for one platform
I think those users are the least likely to move to Apple, they are not in the main spending 1k or more to be a casual user on Windows, they are not going to spend significantly more or have a reason to that would they will all of a sudden see Apple as their next purchase.
They may become part of the secondary Apple market. There are a ton of people here with M1 Macs that really want something more but the M1 is all that Apple has right now so they are kicking the tires while waiting for M1X systems and will sell their M1s when the new stuff comes out.
Not sure what planet your from
but even if the 5 major components of any laptop was $50 each (which they are not) put an Apple logo on it and add $500 LOLApple can't make anything cheap eg APM's at $550, they can flog you an old horse for sure but anything new nope and by your strategy an IPP 12"should be around $100
I think your being a bit overly optimistic
W10 will continue in ARM/Intel to serve the vast majority for the foreseeableTo be honest, you are either 'into' Apple or your not, the M1/ARM is not going to make people move. Just as many macOS users don't want Windows, most Windows users don't want macOS. It is more than just performance that determines buying decisions, more especially for the casual market. Sure there will be some curious folks out there.
I know Tim is focussing heavily on the service area nowadays and needs to bring more users in but there is only so much he will do to achieve that.
This kind of thing is just delusion, Apple won't step away from their 'luxury' approach to build quality, that is just one of many things they would need to do in order to drop the price that much. In fact, there is no way they could drop the price that much and maintain the required profit margins.
I know Tim is focussing heavily on the service area nowadays and needs to bring more users in but there is only so much he will do to achieve that.
My position is in the middle. Most users don't care about the M1, true. But they will care about a fast, thin laptop that you can buy for a good price (or at least the value is there), has a great screen and amazing battery life. This new MacBook air is a VERY balanced machine. The base model does not need expensive upgrades to processors, ram and storage to work well. That's why I think it will be Very successful. Apple know they could have priced it much higher, but they did not. Why? Because, in my opinion, they see an opportunity to reach an important number of new users.
500-600 dollars, I think is a little unrealistic. We'll see.
500-600 dollars, I think is a little unrealistic. We'll see.
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This is also a machine that you could use for ten years. It's only going to get faster as software companies make native versions and it's only going to get better as software companies that don't support macOS take a hard look at supporting it natively (not through WINE).