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C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,461
In the last year Apple experienced it's first ever decline in iPhone sales
In the last year Apple was surpassed by Alphabet as the world most valuable company twice for the first time in a decade and trends point to Alphabet eventually takin that spot for good in the future
In he last year Apple's iPad sales continued their free fall
In the last year Apple's Macbook line has become so stale to the point all the Mac charts in the buyers guide are showing the Danger sign (And I really want a new retina Macbook)
In the last year Samsung Galaxy S7 outsold the iPhone 6s in the US

Now you mean to tell me this year wasn't a disaster?
Like I said, hard to take much seriously because even if there is something realistic and perhaps even meaningful somewhere in it at all at times, the repeated unnecessary absolutes, extremes, exaggerations and hyperbole overshadow it all.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
Indeed. I think in some ways it already has. The products seem to be in somewhat of a standstill, as Apple seems to be turning out ever more features but no underlying direction. During many of the Stevenotes I've ever watched, I always was left amazed at how much new stuff we would be able to do, followed by wondering just what was waiting for us next. It always seemed like taking steps into new frontiers, yet there was a rough map available. Now it seems like they just keep adding stuff with no plan. Tons of new emojis and a graffiti-laden iMessage are not advances. Those are distractions.

But my concerns aren't just with the products. My own design expectations could be affecting how I see that situation. The thread title starts with "how Apple lost its way..." and that points towards something much more fundamental.

Despite Steve Jobs being a registered Democrat, he very rarely made political comments and made only the occasional donation. Apple never got involved in politics and had a lobbying budget smaller than the annual operating costs of a neighborhood gas station. Jobs wisely stayed out of politics and kept his rather substantial personal charitable activities out of the public eye with all the operational security of a SEAL team.

With Jobs as CEO, Apple had a mission: deliver tools that people enjoyed using, tools that would help them create and communicate like nothing before. He wanted everyone to experience a sense of wonder while enabling them to accomplish things they never could have done before. He took that mission personally, and his concern was genuine. Whether the audience was a 10 year old child or the president of Russia, Jobs only cared if they bonded with the product, not if they just owned it.

Cook has traded that model for one that uses Apple's economic power to lobby and get involved with politics. Now the checkbook is going to be open, buying influence and trying to steer society instead of providing people tools for self-determination. What Cook doesn't understand - and Jobs did, believe me he did - was that anytime you do that, anytime you try to curry favor financially with the state, you actually are helping to empower it.

Jobs looked at government as an impediment, while Cook is cozying up to them. The products are no longer the focus, the power of the company is the focus. For that alone, Cook has lost my respect.

Yes, I believe Apple has lost its way.
Well thought out post, but different strokes for different folks.

I don’t see any master plan, for any cell phone manufacturer. However, I do see apple trying to improve one’s technological lot in life, that they hired a HIPAA lawyer should be a tell for the future. I came into this game late, starting with the iphone 4. Family now has two 5s, iphone 6, 6s, 2 macbook pros, 2 ipads and an apple tv.

My kids have the macbook and they “love” the ecosystem integration. My wife “loves” her iphone for her needs. We all enjoy using apple products and I am waiting for the iphone 7.

As far as philanthropy, the landscape has change and apple must change with it. Old timers do not seem to like the new apple as there is some attachment to the way the company used to operate. I can relate to the new apple, far more than the old apple.

Today 2016, government is a different breed than in 2007 and Cook is doing what needs to be done.

Apple is headed in a new direction and Cook is leading it. There is nothing that says if SJ was still here, apple still wouldn’t have challenges in 2016; as all companies have challenges. But, in general, I like the job the management team is doing and where they are headed with their products.

My wife doesn't care about any of the points in this post; neither do my kids, my sons extended family, my friends; etc. This is about people who are emotionally invested in the old apple, and I'm not saying there isn't some true criticism that the company deserves, but the reality is, is it what it is and you take it from there.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… This is about people who are emotionally invested in the old apple,

I am, or was, probably that type of customer.

…what it is and you take it from there.

From the cold, hard look at Apple’s current “state of simplicity”:

Spectacle.q30251.png


For me, as a user of Mac OS X, Apple failed to properly address my needs. Whilst the audience grew and broadened, the GUI became relatively narrow.
 

Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
564
I don’t see any master plan, for any cell phone manufacturer.

I think they do have master plans: see what Apple is doing and either get there first or get there cheaper. I'm only half kidding, unfortunately.

However, I do see apple trying to improve one’s technological lot in life, that they hired a HIPAA lawyer should be a tell for the future.

True. But again, products speak louder than positions. Apple has done some world changing stuff these past 40 years. I don't know if that is going to continue. I know where the Watch could take us, for example, and it would be bordering on magic if they do what I hope they will do. But will they? Or will they just build in more and more biometrics into the thing and make it an indispensable item that gathers unprecedented amounts of data on us? If Steve was here, I'd say the magic was the plan, and that is kind of what makes me think he actually was the genesis of the Watch idea, not anyone in present-day Apple.

As far as philanthropy, the landscape has change and apple must change with it. Old timers do not seem to like the new apple as there is some attachment to the way the company used to operate. I can relate to the new apple, far more than the old apple.

Unfortunately, that plays right in to what I was saying earlier. Apple used to provoke an emotional response by simply having the greatest products. Now they're attempting to ply emotions by taking up social causes. Where does that leave the products?

Charitable donations should be an individual choice, and not something for public spectacle. I don't believe any corporation should be involved in philanthropy. That may sound cold hearted, but understand that a corporation isn't a person, it has no soul, and no duty other than to provide the maximum return to its investors.

Many corporations take many different approaches towards achieving that return. Some chase short term profit. They are parasitic, using up underpaid low-skilled employees and casting them off for new ones. They may skimp on safety, on materials costs, on manufacturing facilities, or whatever. Ultimately those corporations fail or are at least greatly diminished. Many of them do some downright evil things, but mask their behavior with feel-good charitable donations that are nothing more than window dressing. Just like carbon offset credits, those charitable programs exist simply to make people "feel good" about doing business with the company. Apple, up until Cook, resisted the attempt at manipulating buyer opinion via philanthropy. The rare occasions when they got involved it was either a "click to donate" button for a disaster, or it was Jobs' favor to Bono with the RED products.

We bought Apple products knowing we were getting great tools that were going to make life better, more interesting, and more productive. All while being a joy to use. Not because Apple supported some legislation or threw millions down a hole somewhere. Apple's mission I stated earlier as "deliver tools that people enjoyed using, tools that would help them create and communicate like nothing before"; Apple's result was "here are the tools, now go change the world". Under Cook it seems to have become "we're going to team up with the government to change the world but we need you to buy more products so we have funds to do it".

Today 2016, government is a different breed than in 2007 and Cook is doing what needs to be done.

I have to disagree, respectfully. Government hasn't changed. Its always been an inefficient monolith bent on cultivating its own power. The only thing that has changed is the degree of its force. I think a lot of that has to do with the rise of the net and the ability of people to communicate directly and seek their own solutions. The state hates competition.

Apple is headed in a new direction and Cook is leading it. There is nothing that says if SJ was still here, apple still wouldn’t have challenges in 2016; as all companies have challenges. But, in general, I like the job the management team is doing and where they are headed with their products.

If only I could see a direction there, maybe I could offer an opinion.

I'm sure Steve would have constantly been faced with the challenge of the day and of the year, but I doubt the guy who took control of his only face to face meeting with Barack Obama away from the White House staff and the Secret Service and bent them to his terms would have been the guy who started writing lobbying checks and "teaming up" with the feds on the direction technology needs to take. What Apple is doing in that respect is approaching textbook fascism.
Cook scares me, to be blunt.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,325
Gotta be in it to win it
I think they do have master plans: see what Apple is doing and either get there first or get there cheaper. I'm only half kidding, unfortunately.

Apple being the secretive company it is, won't let the cat out of the bag. But the most valuable company in the world, does have a plan that us here at MR are not privy to.

True. But again, products speak louder than positions. Apple has done some world changing stuff these past 40 years. I don't know if that is going to continue. I know where the Watch could take us, for example, and it would be bordering on magic if they do what I hope they will do. But will they? Or will they just build in more and more biometrics into the thing and make it an indispensable item that gathers unprecedented amounts of data on us? If Steve was here, I'd say the magic was the plan, and that is kind of what makes me think he actually was the genesis of the Watch idea, not anyone in present-day Apple.

You can't worry about what you can't control. And let's not speculate where the watch idea came from; unless you know for sure.

Unfortunately, that plays right in to what I was saying earlier. Apple used to provoke an emotional response by simply having the greatest products. Now they're attempting to ply emotions by taking up social causes. Where does that leave the products?

Charitable donations should be an individual choice, and not something for public spectacle. I don't believe any corporation should be involved in philanthropy. That may sound cold hearted, but understand that a corporation isn't a person, it has no soul, and no duty other than to provide the maximum return to its investors.

I still think they have the greatest products and I buy what I think is best. And I'm glad Apple is more open about social causes and philanthropy. It should be. A corporation is not a person, but the legal entity should pony up. Heck, even my local pizza shop give money away.

Many corporations take many different approaches towards achieving that return. Some chase short term profit. They are parasitic, using up underpaid low-skilled employees and casting them off for new ones. They may skimp on safety, on materials costs, on manufacturing facilities, or whatever. Ultimately those corporations fail or are at least greatly diminished. Many of them do some downright evil things, but mask their behavior with feel-good charitable donations that are nothing more than window dressing. Just like carbon offset credits, those charitable programs exist simply to make people "feel good" about doing business with the company. Apple, up until Cook, resisted the attempt at manipulating buyer opinion via philanthropy. The rare occasions when they got involved it was either a "click to donate" button for a disaster, or it was Jobs' favor to Bono with the RED products.

We bought Apple products knowing we were getting great tools that were going to make life better, more interesting, and more productive. All while being a joy to use. Not because Apple supported some legislation or threw millions down a hole somewhere. Apple's mission I stated earlier as "deliver tools that people enjoyed using, tools that would help them create and communicate like nothing before"; Apple's result was "here are the tools, now go change the world". Under Cook it seems to have become "we're going to team up with the government to change the world but we need you to buy more products so we have funds to do it".

I don't know who the "we" is in your post. But I buy apple products, because they make my life easier. And they do it better than the competition.

I have to disagree, respectfully. Government hasn't changed. Its always been an inefficient monolith bent on cultivating its own power. The only thing that has changed is the degree of its force. I think a lot of that has to do with the rise of the net and the ability of people to communicate directly and seek their own solutions. The state hates competition.

If only I could see a direction there, maybe I could offer an opinion.

I'm sure Steve would have constantly been faced with the challenge of the day and of the year, but I doubt the guy who took control of his only face to face meeting with Barack Obama away from the White House staff and the Secret Service and bent them to his terms would have been the guy who started writing lobbying checks and "teaming up" with the feds on the direction technology needs to take. What Apple is doing in that respect is approaching textbook fascism.
Cook scares me, to be blunt.

We see things differently, no problem with that. I like vanilla, you like chocolate. Cook scares you, I like his approach, his style and his leadership and just as important, I think he's a nice person.
[doublepost=1468783064][/doublepost]
I am, or was, probably that type of customer.



From the cold, hard look at Apple’s current “state of simplicity”:

View attachment 640587

For me, as a user of Mac OS X, Apple failed to properly address my needs. Whilst the audience grew and broadened, the GUI became relatively narrow.
I can't speak to Mac OS X; I know my kids really like theirs.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… If Steve was here, I'd say the magic was the plan, and that is kind of what makes me think he actually was the genesis of the Watch idea, not anyone in present-day Apple. …

… let's not speculate where the watch idea came from; unless you know for sure. …

I do not know for sure, for Apple Watch I do believe what Cook said about work starting after the passing of Jobs, and again I seem to be in some kind of perpetual loop with posts about what I heard said by Cook o_O
 
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Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
564
I do not know for sure, for Apple Watch I do believe what Cook said about work starting after the passing of Jobs, and again I seem to be in some kind of perpetual loop with posts about what I heard said by Cook o_O

I believe it too. Work on the product started exactly when he said it did. However, the reason behind the Watch project came from an idea Jobs had. I really cannot go into detail beyond saying that all the other things the Watch currently does are just value-adds compared to the potential it has. Now whether they actually follow through on his concept or not is another matter. As I said earlier, they can either go for the magic, or just keep adding biometric sensors to it until it becomes an indispensable item that just gathers unprecedented data on its wearers.
[doublepost=1468788623][/doublepost]
Apple being the secretive company it is, won't let the cat out of the bag. But the most valuable company in the world, does have a plan that us here at MR are not privy to.

All companies have a plan. Thats not what we're talking about.

You can't worry about what you can't control. And let's not speculate where the watch idea came from; unless you know for sure.

We can't...speculate...unless we know... for sure? o_O

I still think they have the greatest products and I buy what I think is best. And I'm glad Apple is more open about social causes and philanthropy. It should be. A corporation is not a person, but the legal entity should pony up. Heck, even my local pizza shop give money away.

I agree they still have great products. The legal entity "should pony up"? Why, pray tell?
Your local pizza shop is probably family owned and therefore its not much different from those people giving away money out of their own pockets. I would imagine that if they needed to buy something on the way home but were short on personal cash they'd have no problem borrowing it out of their cash drawer.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,325
Gotta be in it to win it
I believe it too. Work on the product started exactly when he said it did. However, the reason behind the Watch project came from an idea Jobs had. I really cannot go into detail beyond saying that all the other things the Watch currently does are just value-adds compared to the potential it has. Now whether they actually follow through on his concept or not is another matter. As I said earlier, they can either go for the magic, or just keep adding biometric sensors to it until it becomes an indispensable item that just gathers unprecedented data on its wearers.
[doublepost=1468788623][/doublepost]

All companies have a plan. Thats not what we're talking about.



We can't...speculate...unless we know... for sure? o_O



I agree they still have great products. The legal entity "should pony up"? Why, pray tell?
Your local pizza shop is probably family owned and therefore its not much different from those people giving away money out of their own pockets. I would imagine that if they needed to buy something on the way home but were short on personal cash they'd have no problem borrowing it out of their cash drawer.
Sure, that's exactly what is being discussed, apple has a plan. Making products that people enjoy using that enhances their life. This is apple and cook has taken this on from jobs.

Regarding speculation, well we can speculate, but when the conclusion from a discussion is based on all of this speculation, the discussion may have missed the mark somewhat.

My local pizza shop is an LLC run by people. Apple is a corporation run by people. While there is no law penalizing those who don't help the less fortunate or good causes; philanthropy, charity, tzedukah should be in the fabric of these legal entities. And most of them do have some type of philanthropic mission.
 

Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
564
Sure, that's exactly what is being discussed, apple has a plan. Making products that people enjoy using that enhances their life. This is apple and cook has taken this on from jobs.

Again, that isn't the topic here. The thread title is "How Apple lost its way: Steve Jobs' love of simplicity is gone". I'm certain Apple has a plan. That plan unfortunately involves moving away from simplicity. Any company can move away from their core values and still succeed, but how many of them have values remotely similar to Apple's? I can't think of very many.

Regarding speculation, well we can speculate, but when the conclusion from a discussion is based on all of this speculation, the discussion may have missed the mark somewhat.

The mention of the Watch and its possible uses represented very little of the discussion. I don't think anyone here felt we had reached a conclusion based on that mention.
Come to think of it, I don't recall any threads on this forum where a conclusion was actually reached. :D


My local pizza shop is an LLC run by people. Apple is a corporation run by people. While there is no law penalizing those who don't help the less fortunate or good causes; philanthropy, charity, tzedukah should be in the fabric of these legal entities. And most of them do have some type of philanthropic mission.

You restated your view without answering my question: Why, pray tell? Why should philanthropy be built into the fabric of corporations?
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
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Gotta be in it to win it
Again, that isn't the topic here. The thread title is "How Apple lost its way: Steve Jobs' love of simplicity is gone". I'm certain Apple has a plan. That plan unfortunately involves moving away from simplicity. Any company can move away from their core values and still succeed, but how many of them have values remotely similar to Apple's? I can't think of very many.



The mention of the Watch and its possible uses represented very little of the discussion. I don't think anyone here felt we had reached a conclusion based on that mention.
Come to think of it, I don't recall any threads on this forum where a conclusion was actually reached. :D




You restated your view without answering my question: Why, pray tell? Why should philanthropy be built into the fabric of corporations?
Unless i missed it, I don't see your posts addressing the thread title either, which I disagree with the premise off. This is not Apple of 1984, it's Apple of 2016 and the world has evolved.

The conclusion is usually the last paragraph in a post, such as "cook scares me to be blunt".:confused:

As far as why philanthropy should be built into the fabric of corporations, because it's the right thing to do, IMO.
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
Like I said, hard to take much seriously because even if there is something realistic and perhaps even meaningful somewhere in it at all at times, the repeated unnecessary absolutes, extremes, exaggerations and hyperbole overshadow it all.
Yup this image is DEFINITELY Apple at its finest.So much hyperbole man.Steve Jobs would have loved seeing the following:

jxPnDYL.png
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,461
Yup this image is DEFINITELY Apple at its finest.So much hyperbole man.Steve Jobs would have loved seeing the following:

jxPnDYL.png
Deflections work just about as well as hyperbole in contributing to undermining what was said. But we all know that too well from extensive practice.
 

akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,870
16,998
As far as why philanthropy should be built into the fabric of corporations, because it's the right thing to do, IMO.
In "your" opinion doesn't really hold any value, does it? I can think whatever I like, that doesn't mean that's the "right" thing. The existence of a business, by definition, is solely to make profit.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,325
Gotta be in it to win it
In "your" opinion doesn't really hold any value, does it? I can think whatever I like, that doesn't mean that's the "right" thing. The existence of a business, by definition, is solely to make profit.
The guru of the 70s who inspired today's modern thinking, peter drucker: "the existence of a business is to provide a service". Non-profits don't exist to make a profit.

Your right, we all can think anything, but this thread is opinion anyway. Mine is just another opinion.
 

akash.nu

macrumors G4
May 26, 2016
10,870
16,998
The guru of the 70s who inspired today's modern thinking, peter drucker: "the existence of a business is to provide a service". Non-profits don't exist to make a profit.

Non profit organisations don't get registered as "business".

Your right, we all can think anything, but this thread is opinion anyway. Mine is just another opinion.
I agree, wasn't being hostile.
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,089
3,207
Not far from Boston, MA.

Did you read the article, or just the headline? Because it ends:

"That said, it’s important to put Apple’s issues in context. Despite its current challenges – and its lapses – I don’t see any other technology creating a simple experience as well as Apple."
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,325
Gotta be in it to win it
Non profit organisations don't get registered as "business".


I agree, wasn't being hostile.
I didnt take it like that all and If I came across as that sorry....

Non profits specifically 501c3 are every bit of a business as Citigroup. Most non-profits are non-profits because they are already engaged in philanthropy. Corporate entities should do the same. I'm a up to everyone to lend a helping hand here on earth.

I'm glad Apple (amongst other worth members)!is lending a hand.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
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Steve Jobs is essential to this topic, it's reasonable to speculate.

I speculate that:
  • his coherent vision for (let's say) an Apple OS would differ, signifcantly, from what's actually, in recent years, sold to the customer as coherent
– and that is, or should be, about much more than things such as consistency of icons, similarity of GUIs across dissimilar devices, or the so-called Apple ecosystem.
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
Steve Jobs is essential to this topic, it's reasonable to speculate.

I speculate that:
  • his coherent vision for (let's say) an Apple OS would differ, signifcantly, from what's actually, in recent years, sold to the customer as coherent
– and that is, or should be, about much more than things such as consistency of icons, similarity of GUIs across dissimilar devices, or the so-called Apple ecosystem.
Steve Jobs always tolerated Forstall despite him being a troublemaker of sorts and unlike iOS 8 and 9 ,there wasn't a chaotic release when both were at the helm.Jobs would never stand for half baked releases ,something Timmy doesn't care about.How many devices were bricked by updates under Tim and how many under Jobs?Self explanatory answer
 
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navaira

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,939
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Amsterdam, Netherlands
How many devices were bricked by updates under Tim and how many under Jobs?
I don't think Tim personally tests all software to be honest. But I really can't believe Steve would have ever approved of the 6/6s design with those antenna bands. Or Apple Music beta being peddled as finished product for over a year. I'd also like to see his reaction to dead mouse charging and the pencil sticking out of iPad Pro's bum.

Then again, iPod Socks, so what do I know.
 
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Sill

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2014
881
564
Unless i missed it, I don't see your posts addressing the thread title either, which I disagree with the premise off. This is not Apple of 1984, it's Apple of 2016 and the world has evolved.

The topic is the direction Apple is taking, and I went over my views and fears on that. In the classical sense, a forum is a place to discuss ideas, opinions, and speculation. I'm pretty sure I covered that.

The conclusion is usually the last paragraph in a post, such as "cook scares me to be blunt".:confused:

You didn't seem to be referring to any individual post when you said "when the conclusion from a discussion", and though I summed up my position that way, I wouldn't try to sum up the entire discussion that way on behalf of every other poster.

As far as why philanthropy should be built into the fabric of corporations, because it's the right thing to do, IMO.

That isn't reason, that isn't logic. That is emotion. You didn't answer my question in any case.
[doublepost=1468925717][/doublepost]
Non profits specifically 501c3 are every bit of a business as Citigroup. Most non-profits are non-profits because they are already engaged in philanthropy. Corporate entities should do the same. I'm a up to everyone to lend a helping hand here on earth.

If a for-profit entity is designed to make a profit, that profit is destined to go to individuals - yes? Why deny those individuals the opportunity to make their own decision about their own philanthropy, rather than the decision being made for them before the money gets to them?
 
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