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How much does the 24" iMac cost PART II
- Thread starter wakerider017
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Actually, this thread brings up an interesting notion. As peoples time becomes more valuable and the ultimate cost of a computer comes down (no matter which way we slice it), is it really worth peoples time anymore to build a PC just to save money? In the case of the iMac, if you reproduced it from desktop parts you could save a $100 or $200 but spend a day or 2 piecing it together and debugging. Lower down the scale, things only get worse.
Building also adds a certain amount of convenience as well. You can fix it yourself. You can upgrade yourself without warranty fears.
A guy from work just built a machine that would stomp the sh*t out of the iMac for a lowly $1500. Add a 24" display (assuming you don't have one) and you have a nice setup for $2000-$2200 that is upgradable and repairable by the builder.
Which is why I find this comparison so ridiculous. If you ask the question, "How much does the iMac cost" I will tell you: Whatever the retail price is. Now, how much does it cost Apple to make? Well subtract about 40% and you will be in the ballpark. The cost of retail components that most people would never cobble together to have a machine like the iMac is irrelevant.
As I stated, you can build a machine that will stomp the iMac for a fraction of the iMac cost. Heck you can buy a quad core for $266 dollars. So right there you are getting a CPU that I would argue is faster, cheaper and you saving are what? $200-$300? On the CPU alone.
A comparison of a mass produced machine that uses expensive (retail) components is irrelevant and not very useful. Buying power will always trump online deals. Which is why I would like to open a computer hardware online co-op. I won't, but I thought it would be a good idea.
In the end who cares. If you like the iMac, cool. If you want to use an unrealistic comparison and attempt to argue the higher cost of building, be my guest. You will be shot down though, with similar arguments to what I am saying. My aim isn't to trash your argument but simply point out the errors I think are there and give you the other side. But, it is the internet, so I shouldn't expect much in the way of a functional discussion.
Building also adds a certain amount of convenience as well. You can fix it yourself. You can upgrade yourself without warranty fears.
A guy from work just built a machine that would stomp the sh*t out of the iMac for a lowly $1500. Add a 24" display (assuming you don't have one) and you have a nice setup for $2000-$2200 that is upgradable and repairable by the builder.
Which is why I find this comparison so ridiculous. If you ask the question, "How much does the iMac cost" I will tell you: Whatever the retail price is. Now, how much does it cost Apple to make? Well subtract about 40% and you will be in the ballpark. The cost of retail components that most people would never cobble together to have a machine like the iMac is irrelevant.
As I stated, you can build a machine that will stomp the iMac for a fraction of the iMac cost. Heck you can buy a quad core for $266 dollars. So right there you are getting a CPU that I would argue is faster, cheaper and you saving are what? $200-$300? On the CPU alone. My aim here is not to say the iMac isn't a good deal. We all know it is. I am a Mac lover like the rest of you and clock many hours of the old "defend apple" timecard. But this comparison is weak at best. It is not realistic and it is not factoring in a number of things.
A comparison of a mass produced machine that uses expensive (retail) components is irrelevant and not very useful. Buying power will always trump online deals. Which is why I would like to open a computer hardware online co-op. I won't, but I thought it would be a good idea.
Building your own also opens a lot of headaches and $1500 is not a fraction of the iMac. Saving $300 on the CPU but adding some to the PSU. At any rate the point of the iMac was not to compete with a desktop tower. Its for people who are sick of the desktop tower.
Headaches for whom? The people who choose to build? I would have to say not. Look, I am not saying everyone should go out and build their own computer instead of buying an iMac.
$1500 is a fraction when you consider the performance gain you would achieve. My buddies computer included a Core 2 Duo 3.0Ghz CPU (E6850 $280), 4GB of fast RAM, an 8800GTX, with all the other components being of high quality for $1500. Performance/$ would show that this machine would blow the iMac away. Naturally, we can argue OS X and iLife, but that is outside the scope of this thread.
I completely understand the iMacs market and who it is for. But with that in mind, how is this comparison remotely relevant?
Also, an aside on your logic. Trying to attain the piece of the market that is sick of desktop towers (assuming they are) would be effectively competing with the desktop tower. Not to mention in the Aug. 7th event, Jobs compared the iMac to a desktop tower.
Andhis machine is louder than my iMac, puts out way more heat, takes up more space, is uglier, and uses more power, and has windows.
It is like saying I can build a Honda Accord for half the cost except the engine, the seats, the tires, the rims, and the doors and the body, and oh yeah the interior, but everything else would be just like a Honda Accord.
Until you start getting a faulty part and have to debug the stupid thing yourself.
But that's not what you said:
It either is faster or a fraction of the cost but its not both.
He still needs a screen.
But again, not really iMac's market. The comparison is relevant because for those people who are in the market for an iMac type computer, the iMac is very good value.
Your "debugging" comment is more fear mongering than actual real world accounts. Most people, and focus on the word most which is not the same as all, that build their computers have zero issues with the actual build and installation process. These people are however typically tweakers. Which is where the "debugging" arises. In my years of building computers I have never done a straight build for someone and had to "debug" their computer. I have some that I built years ago. Still running just fine.
That isn't what I said, I figured the performance based on specs would be implied. You also can't say it is an either or situation. It CAN be cheaper AND faster. Performance/$ is clearly a factor. If someone who doesn't care either way, Mac or PC, and they see they can build a faster machine for less than the iMac. Well then. That makes sense. And vice versa, maybe the iMac would beat some machines that would cost more to build in which case the decision may be clear for them depending on needs.
He has a screen, but I added one a few threads back (a 24") and put the cost at that point.
The comparison is not relevant. People in the market for a iMac type computer will look at computers similar to the iMac which this thread does not address in the OP. The comparison is to retail parts. This thread, IMO, was concocted for the express purpose of giving ammo for the Mac cause. Which of course I applaud, but if you present this to a PC person. I fear for you. The comparison is biased and naturally not very fair. And holds no relevance to the iMacs cost. If anything, you should be looking for the true cost of components to see how much Apple is making off of you. But of course, that doesn't matter, much like this comparison doesn't.
Love
Quisling!
Jeez man,
I had to use the dictionary on that one... lol
flopticalcube, your a good guy too
If you can't figure it out where Wake pointed it out then you got bigger problems than I can solve. You have made so many bad information posts.
Typical rebuttal by someone who is full of... well you know. This isn't a question of me finding what Wake pointed out, it is a question of you presenting evidence that i posted "bad information." If you can't support YOUR claim, I am afraid I am not the one who has big problems. And I am sure through your master powers of deduction you can figure out who I mean.
Whats more. What is up with these rather strong statements such "bigger problems than I can solve"? Does that make you feel good? Does assuming I am some big idiot over the internet empower you and/or helps you sleep better? Again, lets reassess who has the big problems.
You also chose not to address my second question, which was why YOU find this post to be relevant. Surely if it is good information you could somehow improvise a list of data points as to why it is relevant. Something other than "Lol. PCs are so expensive. Glad I got a Mac," etc.
However, there is no way the iMac has an H-IPS. - Your freaking quote. BAD INFORMATION. YOU ARE WRONG AND IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT ON NUMEROUS SITES. I guess you aren't bright enough to rememeber your own quote.
Go here and it might help: http://www.hookedonphonics.com
Why is it relavant? I will spell it out for you. The one qualm with Apple has been that PC people state that all Apples are overpriced. For a new person coming in and asking why is the price so high or stating that they are overpriced can be pointed to this thread. I personally have wondered how much the different components would cost me and now someone did the work for me. Relevance for me and others= 100%
The fact is a small fraction of the consumer market actually builds their own PCs. Not too many people build their own anythings now. And in the Pro world no one wants to build their own machine, especially one that has Windows on it YUCK!
Windows is the only thing keeping me from building my own machine. That and my hatred for plastic cases with no design energy put into them whatsoever. In this entire thread the only ridiculous thing I have found is that no actually realizes that Windows has nothing to offer the world anymore.
You can't leave them out. Not you, but other PC supporters always want to leave the OS and bundled software out of the comparisons, you just can't do it. The fact that you either have to pay $400 for Vista, or go Linux and have no real direction should be a big consideration for any PC or Mac buyer, and any comparison.
If they are running Windows XP or Vista or some form of Windows, and are still running fine, then they don't get used enough to break. When my department built too Avid editing systems from scratch, instead of buying a Mac like I told them to, they had to "debug" the think almost every week. Building your own computer is fine and all, just like building your own car or house, but when people are going to be actually using it on the regular for heavy lifting then it's probably better to get the thing built and have a warranty by just one party.
Digital Skunk I believe that you're exaggerating the "debugging" problems when building your own machine or when running Windows. Now I do trust your personal experience but we have had conflicts of interpretation in the past.
I'm an avid Mac fan, user, and administrator. Even after saying all that I still believe that all computers have their own fair share of bugs no matter what operating system or hardware manufacturer. Having worked with countless Windows, Mac, and Solaris machines they all act up from time to time.
For Windows the majority of the issues tend not to be the operating system itself but the drivers and applications. That's quality control that Microsoft has tried to improve but it's still up to the component manufacturers and software developers to meet those standards. That applies to both built from scratch and pre-built machines
I'm an avid Mac fan, user, and administrator. Even after saying all that I still believe that all computers have their own fair share of bugs no matter what operating system or hardware manufacturer. Having worked with countless Windows, Mac, and Solaris machines they all act up from time to time.
For Windows the majority of the issues tend not to be the operating system itself but the drivers and applications. That's quality control that Microsoft has tried to improve but it's still up to the component manufacturers and software developers to meet those standards. That applies to both built from scratch and pre-built machines
You clearly didn't read my post where I admitted that I may be wrong. (Which is in fact in this thread) It was my opinion that the iMac did not have an H-IPS panel. Please tell me how an opinion (and one at that) warrants "you post false information." His point was indeed an opinion. Why is one opinion valued more than another? It is a discussion, a discussion where people disagree. My skepticism of the panel in the iMac aside, what is more interesting is the willingness to immediately accept something based on another persons opinion. If the OP of that thread turned out to be wrong would you have been such a jerk to him? If he would have continued to fight but was proven wrong. I doubt it. The attention I am receiving is due to nothing short of the fact that I am not going praise Apple as quick as the typical people here. Of course this is not the first time this has happened to me here.
People have posted some SwitchResX panel data, which is decent evidence. But I still think a disassembly would be a better indication of what it is. Although I should trust Alloeye since I bought something from him.
Hookedonphonics? People who can't have a discussion quite often resort to pointless insults. Posting a link to something like that, with no recommendation as to why I need it is quite childish. It would be akin to me posting a link to a site about facial reconstruction.
Anyhow, comparing a mass produced Apple computer to retail notebook components is a ridiculous comparison. And holds no relevance to assessing the iMacs cost or value. If you want to compare an iMac to other machines, such as a Dell or something in the All-in-one class, that is a relevant comparison.
Is the iMac overpriced? This comparison does not answer that question. You can argue all you like. Do I think the iMac is a good value? Hell yeah. I think most of the Macs are a good value. Hence, that is why I am here and that is why I buy them. Regardless, my love of Macs does not blind me to the fact that this comparison is ridiculous. That, unfortunately, is not the case for you.
You can run something besides Windows you know. Windows has nothing to offer? How about corporate standardization? I don't run Windows myself, but I do support at my uni and things like Office, Outlook, etc are invaluable. Whether or not Apple can compete, the fact that this world is Windows cannot be ignored.
You clearly haven't looked much at the building market. With cases from Lian-li, Silverstone the misconception of beige and plastic should not persist. You suggestion that this is the case shows your lack of research and knowledge on the subject. Ugly is subjective, not objective as most here like to think. Being a blinded Apple fanboy is not useful if you truly want to show people the beauty of a Mac. You might want to try researching and forming arguments that actually sound intelligent... "Windows...YUCK!" I think you get the point.
"If they are running Windows XP or Vista or some form of Windows, and are still running fine, then they don't get used enough to break." What a grand assume on your part. The PCs I have built, including my mothers, is used daily. For the same things Macs are used for. Would a Mac be better? Maybe, but that is not what is being discussed. I do not have to debug.
And with your real world example. I work at a University where I work on a support team that supports the entire business end of the university. Student accounts, comptroller, etc. The frequency of debugging Windows itself is a rare occurrence. This out of nearly 600+ machines. I would hardly call you one instance indicative of what happens in the real world.
You just don't get it. There are 3 routes to geting a computer. Buy a Dell or other manufactured PC. Buy an iMac. Build one. Let us say that you could buy an iMac case for $150 how much would it cost me, you, or any normal person to build one? This is a relevant question. I am waiting for your answer.
How much would it cost me to build one if I got my hands on a case.
BTW if the topic is not relevant to you then don't freaking post in it.
Well there are surely more routes to buying a computer than the 3 you listed. There is also the option of buying a Mac Pro (which I will be doing later), Mac mini, etc etc. But anyhow.
How much would it cost to build one. It would cost however much the parts would cost. That is a pretty evident answer. The economic feasibility of that proposition is what you are questioning here right? However. You are assuming that: 1. That person wants something like an iMac and 2. You are limited to the expensive parts the iMac uses.
In most cases it is clear that certain things are cheaper than doing it yourself. Such as cars. Most people wouldn't go and build there own cars, right?
My point about the relevance here is that you are assuming the two things I listed above. And also, the parts that the OP is attempting to use are rather sensational. And, attempting to push the burden of proof on me for explaining why the $1400 NEC display is not a valid comparison is simply avoidance. In science, when someone proposes a hypothesis, they are required to test and show that it is indeed a valid hypothesis. Thus, the burden of proof is not on me because I contest it, the burden of proof is on those who take it as fact since they are the ones who claim it as such.
Again you avoided the question. If they are in an iMac forum I gather they are interested in an iMac. Let me say it louder. HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST YOU TO BUILD AN iMAC IF YOU HAD THE CASE?
Assign a $ amount to the LCD and state how much it is. We can gather that the case would be around $150 and the LCD from $500 to $1400.
I can't believe how simplistic I have to get with you. There are 3 routes one can take when interested in an iMac type of computer (which would be the reason they are on an iMac forum): 1) Buy a manufactured PC (Dell AIO, Sony AIO), 2) Buy an iMac, or 3) Build one. We now the price of 1) and 2). PRICE OUT 3).
Amazing that every other person understands this post except you