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CylonGlitch

macrumors 68030
Jul 7, 2009
2,956
268
Nashville
And with flash eventually every phone will have flash... that will be the benchmark... a camera with flash...
A camera with flash meaning to take pictures in the dark, or a camera, and flash (the API) capability? For picture taking, I see it as useful, but not necessary, but mostly because I only use my phone's camera to take occasional pictures. But yes, I can see it being useful.

Running Flash(tm), that's a big meh... would be nice, not necessary. There are a ton of threads about why it isn't support. Primarily because it's a close API and not standard. But I can see it being nice to have.

every computer needs to have a built in camera... the industry made that standard... and now they will just IMPROVE upon that standard...
This one I don't agree with. 99% of the people I know who have cameras on their computers don't use them. I use mine to scan barcodes, that's about it. MOST desktops do NOT have cameras, most laptops do. Thus a huge percentage of computers don't have cameras. I find them a waste (for computers), thus remove it and save me $100 on the pricetag and I'd be happier.

Every computer has the capablity to run flash... thats a benchmark...
OK, agreed.

Every Phone OS or Tablet OS or desktop OS can multitask, that is AND has been the benchmark since GUI OS systems became the staple.
Correct every Phone to every SMART Phone and you may have it. But most standard phones don't. BTW, we don't want Windows 3.1 or OS8 multitasking, we want real, protected memory, pre-emptive multitasking. That takes power, Windows got it with 2000 (ignore NT for now), and Macs got it with OSX. Those level machines were more powerful then many phone processors of today. Plus the phone OS's are quote a bit more complex in their abilities meaning the power to truly multitask is more limited. I'm not saying it CANNOT be done, just that maybe we aren't ready for it yet -- or at least not in Apple's eyes. They won't put it out until it give a good experience for the user.


it is sad that, that techies accept less than mediocrity from such a supposed "innovative" company..
There are also realistic capabilities. Understanding the details of the hardware/software environment and the interface to the user to produce a clean, easy to use, friendly experience is sometimes more important then having every bell and whistle.

I know my iPhone (3G) can stutter at times, sometimes lag majorly when just opening the SMS app, or checking email or something. I don't have a ton of stuff on the phone, but enough. If it got 25% slower because they updated the OS to have multitasking, it would be REALLY frustrating and degrade my enjoyment of the phone. Apple has become sensitive to the end user experience, something that many companies have neglected.

Look at the iPod. It wasn't something new when it came out, but they polished the interface and came up with the click wheel to make it sweet. You could have purchased a Creative Labs player for less, and not deal with Apple; but Apple made the experience of the iPod NICER. The Zune is a nice player, but the iPod Touch is NICER.

The reality is that the iPad is, right now, in a class by itself. There is nothing else out there trying to do what it is doing. It isn't a netbook device, it wasn't designed that way. It isn't a laptop, it wasn't designed that way. It is something in the middle. Will it work, will people buy it and will it be successful? Only time will tell, we'll see how it does. If it works like Apple has shown, I think it will do well. But being better doesn't always mean success; Beta was better then VHS, but VHS won.

There is the KISS method of design, and Apple seems to have it down. Sure it may not do EVERYTHING, but what it does do, it will do very well. And, often, that is what it comes down to.

If you commute every day to work, do you want a car that is reliable and gets good gas mileage, and a very nice drive but lacks some of the other features. Or do you want a car that gets decent gas mileage, is mostly smooth, give your Sirius radio (but not XM), Navigation system with maps from 1992, power windows that only go 1/2 way down and is not dependable?

Remember, be careful for what you wish for, you might get it. :D
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
9,014
11,200
How about apples very own Iphone? lol

I'd feel pretty dumb taking pictures with something the size of an iPad.

Netbooks could be considered a competitor...

And all netbooks come with a keyboard and windows or linux. Do you expect the iPad to add those?

Hp Slate will be...
EE Pad will be...

I thought you were talking about a baseline. Not what will be.

and they all meet what most would consider a baseline for what should be standard on a tablet/netbook/touch device.

Again, the iPad has advantages to all of those different devices. And they have advantages over it.

How can a phone add a camera or have a OS with multitasking or have flash with a lessor processor. But the bigger ipad cannot? that doesnt make sense...

There is a difference between doesn't and cannot.

That would be like walking up to a 2010 BMW and them saying it doesnt have power steering?

But your 2010 BMW does not have the option for an automatic transmission.

ME: what my honda has that...
BMW: But, but we had to sacrafic something to keep the cost down...
Me: so you eliminate a basic feature?

A Honda and a BMW are not price competitive.
 

danny_w

macrumors 601
Mar 8, 2005
4,471
301
Cumming, GA
The reason I invest my money into other companies is to make more money. Thus in this respect, yes. I sure the heck hope that they make money. Do I think that the iPad is mediocre? Not really, it isn't targeting most hardcore users, but it is targeting the masses. I realize that, and think that is the smart move, they have done a great job selling to that market.
Finally somebody hit on the real reason that the iPad needs flash and you still don't recognize it. The hardcore users may not need or want flash, so if that was the target audience for the iPad I would gladly concede that the lack of flash is no big deal. However, you can bet that the masses that spend a lot of their time on Farmville and Mafia Wars and any of the other myriad sites that require flash (yes, flash games, which are very popular with the masses) will want it, even if they don't know what it is.
 

DaveSW

macrumors 6502
Feb 6, 2010
379
0
BobHail, no one is forcing you to buy an iPad. It's great that you're happy with your netbook. :)
 

DaveSW

macrumors 6502
Feb 6, 2010
379
0
Finally somebody hit on the real reason that the iPad needs flash and you still don't recognize it. The hardcore users may not need or want flash, so if that was the target audience for the iPad I would gladly concede that the lack of flash is no big deal. However, you can bet that the masses that spend a lot of their time on Farmville and Mafia Wars and any of the other myriad sites that require flash (yes, flash games, which are very popular with the masses) will want it, even if they don't know what it is.

theres a Mafia Wars iPhone app. there'll be a mafia wars and farmville app specially designed for the iPad.
 

Mkallevik

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2007
59
0
Airplanes still use tires lol... they just tuck them in when in flight(some of them do)

There is a benchmark... why cant apple do at least the MINIMUM that other competitors are using or will be using?

And with flash eventually every phone will have flash... that will be the benchmark... a camera with flash...

every computer needs to have a built in camera... the industry made that standard... and now they will just IMPROVE upon that standard...

Every computer has the capablity to run flash... thats a benchmark...

Every Phone OS or Tablet OS or desktop OS can multitask, that is AND has been the benchmark since GUI OS systems became the staple.

it is sad that, that techies accept less than mediocrity from such a supposed "innovative" company..

"Airplanes still use tires lol... they just tuck them in when in flight(some of them do)" <-- What does that have to do with my argument? I said if the tires was IN THE WAY.

"Every computer has the capablity to run flash... thats a benchmark..." <-- Yes, but no computer has the capability to run flash without it crashing every once in a while. Thats why thats a benchmark that someone has to leave out in order for it to either improve or to be changed with something else. (html5 for instance)

Unless someone stop supporting flash it will take forever for it to go away.
 

dgree03

macrumors 65816
Jan 8, 2009
1,177
0
I'd feel pretty dumb taking pictures with something the size of an iPad.



And all netbooks come with a keyboard and windows or linux. Do you expect the iPad to add those?



I thought you were talking about a baseline. Not what will be.



Again, the iPad has advantages to all of those different devices. And they have advantages over it.



There is a difference between doesn't and cannot.



But your 2010 BMW does not have the option for an automatic transmission.



A Honda and a BMW are not price competitive.

Of course Honda and BMW arent price competitive... so that means it would be ok for BMW to leave out power steering when a LESS expensive and less capable car has it standard??

The same can be said about the Ipad... no matter how much you or anybody else wants to dismiss it.. Ipad's main competitor is a netbook/laptop or touch screen phone, period. They are all fighting for the portable or ultra portable namespace.

So the ipad's BASELINE would fall into place with the other ultra-portables... Camera, Browser Flash, keyboard, Multitasking, Full I/O.... those are standard TODAY with regards to what basic features in that namespace...

So again why do people accept apples mediocrity? esp, tech people?
 

dgree03

macrumors 65816
Jan 8, 2009
1,177
0
"Airplanes still use tires lol... they just tuck them in when in flight(some of them do)" <-- What does that have to do with my argument? I said if the tires was IN THE WAY.

"Every computer has the capablity to run flash... thats a benchmark..." <-- Yes, but no computer has the capability to run flash without it crashing every once in a while. Thats why thats a benchmark that someone has to leave out in order for it to either improve or to be changed with something else. (html5 for instance)

Unless someone stop supporting flash it will take forever for it to go away.

Without crashing really? I have never had a browser crash because of flash... for other reasons but not because I was watching a hulu video.

Flash is not going away anytime soon... so why should you accept apple not supporting it? is it gone? is HTML5 the standard? if not, why not let users have the FULL BROWSING EXPERIENCE on the magical, revolutionary ipad?
 

Mkallevik

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2007
59
0
Of course Honda and BMW arent price competitive... so that means it would be ok for BMW to leave out power steering when a LESS expensive and less capable car has it standard??

The same can be said about the Ipad... no matter how much you or anybody else wants to dismiss it.. Ipad's main competitor is a netbook/laptop or touch screen phone, period. They are all fighting for the portable or ultra portable namespace.

So the ipad's BASELINE would fall into place with the other ultra-portables... Camera, Browser Flash, keyboard, Multitasking, Full I/O.... those are standard TODAY with regards to what basic features in that namespace...

So again why do people accept apples mediocrity? esp, tech people?

"So the ipad's BASELINE would fall into place with the other ultra-portables... Camera, Browser Flash, keyboard, Multitasking, Full I/O.... those are standard TODAY with regards to what basic features in that namespace..." <--- Yes, along with crappy displays, cheap parts, plastic, terrible trackpads, etc. Pick one!
 

smetvid

macrumors 6502a
Nov 1, 2009
555
439
Personally I see the "I would buy the Ipad if..." threads as a sign of the level of excitement about the product. If people didn't really want the Ipad then they wouldn't bother writing about it on here.

I think it boils down to people wanting a perfect device if they are going to spend $500.00 to $900.00. $500.00 can actually buy a decent laptop these days and no I'm not talking about a netbook. My point isn't that the Ipad is better or worse compared to a laptop but that this is a lot of money and people want to make sure they get the most bang for buck. We all have different opinions about what makes a device perfect. Some want Flash and some do not. Some are ok with 16 GB of storage and some want a SD card slot. Some want a webcam and some do not. The list is as long as the number of egos in this forum including my own.

We see this level of discussion every time a company comes out with a new product. The reason is because everybody has different needs and wants for a device. I see all the debate because I think a lot of people really want to like the Ipad but for some people certain omissions make it hard to justify the cost. For those people they would love to buy one but their daily needs and uses just make it hard. I for one always have a computer around me so I do not care what restrictions to web browsing it may have. That is just me however. Personally I could never use a device like this for all web browsing but then again I'm used to running 8 programs all at once while I waste time on this forum while working on a website (well I should be working on it at least.) The only time I am not in front of a computer is when I am driving or sleeping or eating. Driving and any device have no place being mixed together. Sleeping and browsing is a little tough although I could see it becoming a new disorder like sleep walking if we are not careful. My wife would slap me upside the head if I surfed the web while we eat. When I am on vacation I do try to distance myself from technology as much as possible although that doesn't always happen.

This is a public forum which means people have just as much right to wish a new product had X and Y feature as those people who think that same product is the greatest invention since the wheel. Where we need to draw the line however is calling a product useless or saying people are silly for thinking the way they do. Calling the Ipad useless is just as bad as calling Flash useless regardless of what your opinion is on the subject.

I do plan on buying a 16 GB Ipad thanks to the info I received from helpful people on this forum as to what size I should get. I am very excited about using it as well as CSS3 and HTML 5 in the near future. I do however have to keep using Flash as long as my clients ask for it and it is the most viable option for delivery at this moment. I hate the fact that most of my clients use IE but until IE 9 comes out my hands are tied. The only thing I need to do before I make the final decision to buy an Ipad is see one in person and try it out. I do not doubt it will fit my needs but I have a rule of not buying anything unless I can try it out first.
 

CylonGlitch

macrumors 68030
Jul 7, 2009
2,956
268
Nashville
Finally somebody hit on the real reason that the iPad needs flash and you still don't recognize it. The hardcore users may not need or want flash, so if that was the target audience for the iPad I would gladly concede that the lack of flash is no big deal. However, you can bet that the masses that spend a lot of their time on Farmville and Mafia Wars and any of the other myriad sites that require flash (yes, flash games, which are very popular with the masses) will want it, even if they don't know what it is.

For that reason alone I can see that the masses would like Flash. BUT I also know how much of a pig Flash is, and that may ruin the overall experience. If that is the case the they are often better off without it. It would be nice to have, and even play with, even if it sucked. I'm sure that Apple tested with and without it and found that it wouldn't be best for the masses to have it ruin an otherwise good experience.

Or.... they could just hate Adobe. :D
 

marksman

macrumors 603
Jun 4, 2007
5,764
5
Without crashing really? I have never had a browser crash because of flash... for other reasons but not because I was watching a hulu video.

LOL.

If you have EVER had a browser crash, you have had it crash because of flash.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
9,014
11,200
Of course Honda and BMW arent price competitive... so that means it would be ok for BMW to leave out power steering when a LESS expensive and less capable car has it standard??

The same can be said about the Ipad... no matter how much you or anybody else wants to dismiss it.. Ipad's main competitor is a netbook/laptop or touch screen phone, period. They are all fighting for the portable or ultra portable namespace.

So the ipad's BASELINE would fall into place with the other ultra-portables... Camera, Browser Flash, keyboard, Multitasking, Full I/O.... those are standard TODAY with regards to what basic features in that namespace...

So again why do people accept apples mediocrity? esp, tech people?

Again, an iPad does some things better than those devices. Your baseline talk is all just your opinion of what should be considered standard. This mediocrity that you claim is your opinion based on your needs. The iPad is an exceptional device for what it was designed to do.
 

Mkallevik

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2007
59
0
Without crashing really? I have never had a browser crash because of flash... for other reasons but not because I was watching a hulu video.

Flash is not going away anytime soon... so why should you accept apple not supporting it? is it gone? is HTML5 the standard? if not, why not let users have the FULL BROWSING EXPERIENCE on the magical, revolutionary ipad?

If you haven't had a crash because of flash you are one in a million. Maybe not watching a hulu video, but thats just a small part of what flash does.

Flash may be going away soon or it may not. It may be improved or it may not. The thing is, if everyone keeps supporting flash it will not get better or be changed for something better. A transition is never easy, and of course people who buy an ipad will have to wait for some features of the internet to be accessible. You can still have a good browsing experience on the ipad without flash. And since neither of us have tested it, we cannot judge if it will be a good experience or not.
 

CylonGlitch

macrumors 68030
Jul 7, 2009
2,956
268
Nashville
Of course Honda and BMW arent price competitive... so that means it would be ok for BMW to leave out power steering when a LESS expensive and less capable car has it standard??

A lot of high end sports cars come with manual transmissions; but low end cars have automatic... I guess those exotic sports cars are quite mediocre as well?
 

dave1812dave

macrumors 6502a
May 15, 2009
858
0
If you haven't had a crash because of flash you are one in a million. Maybe not watching a hulu video, but thats just a small part of what flash does.

Flash may be going away soon or it may not. It may be improved or it may not. The thing is, if everyone keeps supporting flash it will not get better or be changed for something better. A transition is never easy, and of course people who buy an ipad will have to wait for some features of the internet to be accessible. You can still have a good browsing experience on the ipad without flash. And since neither of us have tested it, we cannot judge if it will be a good experience or not.


I've had a Touch for more than TWO YEARS, without Flash. Same for those with iPhones. Enough already! Apple should simply allow Flash on their devices.
 

marksman

macrumors 603
Jun 4, 2007
5,764
5
Farmville can be made into an iphone/ipad app.

Mafiawars already is an iphone app.

No need for flash.
 

danny_w

macrumors 601
Mar 8, 2005
4,471
301
Cumming, GA
For that reason alone I can see that the masses would like Flash. BUT I also know how much of a pig Flash is, and that may ruin the overall experience. If that is the case the they are often better off without it. It would be nice to have, and even play with, even if it sucked. I'm sure that Apple tested with and without it and found that it wouldn't be best for the masses to have it ruin an otherwise good experience.

Or.... they could just hate Adobe. :D
Whatever the reason I expect it will account for quite a few returns.
 

Mkallevik

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2007
59
0
I've had a Touch for more than TWO YEARS, without Flash. Same for those with iPhones. Enough already! Apple should simply allow Flash on their devices.

I have had iPhone since the first came out and managed fine without. Personally, I don't care if Apple aloes flash or not, I am simply trying to point out why excluding flash may not be a bad thing.
 
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