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JamesTheMac

Cancelled
Mar 10, 2019
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And, it makes sense that, for someone’s whose early and core computing experience had been mouse and keyboard, their most familiar and comfortable experience will always be mouse and keyboard. Same for many that grew up using key commands never ever “got” the whole mouse thing. And, someone that grows up with today’s touch interfaces may find themselves in 2060 wondering the same about those future technologies.
For me it is not the user interface that limits my use of the iPad for productivity. But the functionality of the apps themselves. Office for example only offers cut down versions of its desktop variants, with reduced functionality, and hence, (for me) utility.

For someone doing just the basics on a $400 iPad, it’s great value. But with the $2k M1//M2 devices there is a feeling to me that it should offer more, when in reality there is little difference, other than essentially the quality of the screen.
 

Ashbash75

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Dec 17, 2017
310
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I ditched my ipad pro too. Mobile OS's are just useless for me. I'm too used to the desktop experience. Even web browsing on either phone or tablet is gimped.

I guess today's generation are too used to hamburgers and never tried steak 🤣
 
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Ashbash75

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Not everyone knows that when purchasing it. Not everyone discovers what can't be done on an iPad until they've had it for a few years.
And if you want to repurpose it for a different use, only to find you don't have a enough storage, memory, usb ports (macs).
 
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Ashbash75

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Which is where so much of the frustration comes from because the iPad can go places the Mac can't.
oh god yes. I tried my IPP as an second display for my mac mini. Wired and wireless, the experience was just terrible, latency issues and connection drop outs. Apple's software is just frustrating full stop. That was my ipad breaking point.

My wife seems to enjoy my old IPP and iPhone thou!
 
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Marsikus

macrumors 6502
Feb 12, 2020
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Which is where so much of the frustration comes from because the iPad can go places the Mac can't.
It seems to me that iPad offers even less than iPhone: no swipe navigation gestures in apps like FB, tiny Instagram window terribly upscaled to fit the screen, harder to type and so on.

Large screen for drawing with pen is largely the only real feature.
 

AlexESP

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Sep 7, 2014
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Who is there saying that iPadOS cannot be better with multitasking? Why can't iPadOS support better file system? Why can't iPad have better external accessories support? When Apple improve these, it will make iPad instantly more useful. But for 10 years now, iPadOS remain the restrictively, feature limited software.
You speak of software limitations as if they were artificial limitations, when there are powerful reasons behind.

Specially regarding multitasking, I’ve also criticised Stage Manager, but simply because I think there’s no good way to have windowed multitasking on a touch device. Show me one that works and I’ll buy it. Surface? As we’ve discussed, almost No one even uses it (not even multitask) as a tablet. DeX and Android windowed mode? It gets a lot of praise in tech forums, and it’s a nice demo, but I’d also bet no one* uses it in real life. Because it features a classic desktop interface, with tab bar, traffic light controls, etc. and that doesn’t feel natural with touch controls. We’re used to swipes instead of hard taps, non-precise controls, specific interfaces for different viewports, etc. It feels cumbersome, reminds me to how in the early days of the iPhone, Windows Mobile just tried to replicate their classic interface with resistive screens. It just didn’t work. And even if Apple has tried to create a good experience, based on those metaphors, they’ve failed, it’s not substantially better. Because I think touch screens are meant to be used in full screen mode.
 

AlexESP

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Sep 7, 2014
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For someone doing just the basics on a $400 iPad, it’s great value. But with the $2k M1//M2 devices there is a feeling to me that it should offer more, when in reality there is little difference, other than essentially the quality of the screen.
I keep hearing this, but… what offers a $4000 Mac Studio over a $700 Mac Mini? Because software-wise they’re identical, it’s just different hardware, like the iPad. By the way, it offers much better chip, larger (not only much better) display, much better cameras, LiDAR, TrueDepth, thunderbolt, 5G, higher storage, 2nd gen pencil, Magic Keyboard compatibility, quad speakers, and faster wifi. So way beyond just better screen quality.
 

rui no onna

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Oct 25, 2013
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Who is there saying that iPadOS cannot be better with multitasking? Why can't iPadOS support better file system? Why can't iPad have better external accessories support? When Apple improve these, it will make iPad instantly more useful. But for 10 years now, iPadOS remain the restrictively, feature limited software.

I don't think you've used the iPad 10 years ago. If you have, you'll know that things were way more restricted back then.

No Files app at all, no multitasking, no mouse support. I can't recall if the Share sheet was even available back then. Iirc, that wasn't on iOS 4 which is what shipped on my iPad 2. Files were locked inside apps unless the app supported sending via email or cloud services like Dropbox.

Software progress on the iPad has been slow but it's not as locked down and limited as it used to be.
 

Isengardtom

macrumors 65816
Feb 14, 2009
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I don't think you've used the iPad 10 years ago. If you have, you'll know that things were way more restricted back then.

No Files app at all, no multitasking, no mouse support. I can't recall if the Share sheet was even available back then. Iirc, that wasn't on iOS 4 which is what shipped on my iPad 2. Files were locked inside apps unless the app supported sending via email or cloud services like Dropbox.

Software progress on the iPad has been slow but it's not as locked down and limited as it used to be.
Exactly

in my personal opinion, iPads are the most versatile home computers you can have. I don’t need any other computer at home. The limits are in the professional work space. But in that, even macs are limited for me. As an accountant, you almost need to work with windows.
 

JamesTheMac

Cancelled
Mar 10, 2019
61
65
I keep hearing this, but… what offers a $4000 Mac Studio over a $700 Mac Mini? Because software-wise they’re identical, it’s just different hardware, like the iPad. By the way, it offers much better chip, larger (not only much better) display, much better cameras, LiDAR, TrueDepth, thunderbolt, 5G, higher storage, 2nd gen pencil, Magic Keyboard compatibility, quad speakers, and faster wifi. So way beyond just better screen quality.
I know what the $2k iPad Pro has. I have an M2 11" as an upgrade from my 2018 device. Without wanting to sound arrogant, the cost wasn't an issue for me. But if it was, for my use cases it's not the best value machine I own. Yes, it has the better cameras, LiDAR, TrueDepth etc. etc. But in reality I very rarely would use those. The 2nd gen pencil, thunderbolt, and MK support I do use. But... For such a powerful machine, with good hardware, and a decent amount of memory, the apps that I can use on it let the overall experience down for productivity. I can't run complex analysis formulas through the cut down version of Excel, even though the processor should chew through large data sets. Creating a presentation of said data, or anything for that matter, is much harder to achieve on the IPP. Referencing and jumping across several pdfs and word docs to create a report in the field is harder work than it need be, even with the Magic Keyboard. Then there is the whole issue of not being able to run certain types of software full stop on the IPP, such a Xcode or Visual Studio.

So if I were constrained on finances and could only use the one machine, I'd get more done on a Surface Go 3, which with the same size screen allows me to be much more productive, even though hardware wise it's an inferior device. So on the days that I have to travel light, the Surface Go 3 is the only device I take with me to get the job done.

Am I saying the IPP is useless? No, not at all. I love how elegant and efficient iPadOS is. It is a joy to use. Which is why I have several different size iPads. But for my use cases, I can't use the iPad efficiently for the majority of my productive work. Which is why in reality I end up using both when space is not a limitation.

I don't think posts that say the 'Surface is Poo' really help the discussion. In fact, the discussion will carry on going around and round in circles as we all have our own views, and to each of us, that view is the correct view. Fact is, people use use these versatile devices in different ways, and there is no religion that says because one device type or brand works better for you, that you or others are wrong to consider another brand or device type. I'm old enough to remember how tribal the users of different brands can be in be in the old 8/16 bit days with the Atari vs Commodore in the school playground.

Different tools for different tasks...
 

BhaveshUK

macrumors regular
Jan 20, 2012
220
459
For me it is not the user interface that limits my use of the iPad for productivity. But the functionality of the apps themselves. Office for example only offers cut down versions of its desktop variants, with reduced functionality, and hence, (for me) utility.

For someone doing just the basics on a $400 iPad, it’s great value. But with the $2k M1//M2 devices there is a feeling to me that it should offer more, when in reality there is little difference, other than essentially the quality of the screen.

App functionality is definitely one of the major limitations with iPad. I’ve been using Affinity Publisher and LumaFusion on iPad the past few days, and because they are so richly featured, the experience has been a joy. But when I’m forced to use Microsoft Office, the iPad version feels incredibly restrictive, and I choose to complete that task on my iMac.

Value of the iPad is contentious for me right now. The price hikes in the UK (because of our economy) make the higher end iPads feel “overpriced“ in my opinion, even when I use mine to make income. If my iPad Pro 12.9 (2020) stopped working today, I would opt to not replace it immediately but rather wait for the next iterations or a price reduction. I’ve also recently purchased a Wacom Intuos for £150 which can fulfil my drawing needs just as well and was much cheaper than any iPad model.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,643
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Specially regarding multitasking, I’ve also criticised Stage Manager, but simply because I think there’s no good way to have windowed multitasking on a touch device. Show me one that works and I’ll buy it. Surface? As we’ve discussed, almost No one even uses it (not even multitask) as a tablet. DeX and Android windowed mode? It gets a lot of praise in tech forums, and it’s a nice demo, but I’d also bet no one* uses it in real life. Because it features a classic desktop interface, with tab bar, traffic light controls, etc. and that doesn’t feel natural with touch controls. We’re used to swipes instead of hard taps, non-precise controls, specific interfaces for different viewports, etc. It feels cumbersome, reminds me to how in the early days of the iPhone, Windows Mobile just tried to replicate their classic interface with resistive screens. It just didn’t work. And even if Apple has tried to create a good experience, based on those metaphors, they’ve failed, it’s not substantially better. Because I think touch screens are meant to be used in full screen mode.
Samsung OneUI (not "Android" in general) is the best touch based multitasking, way better than iPadOS (with or without stage manager) and then either Windows or DEX (which copies Windows) if you only use touch. Unfortunately Samsung tablets (and most Android tablets) have weak points that make them inferior to iPads (and, contrary to popular belief, it's not the fact that Android apps are blown up phone apps, which is a greatly exaggerated misconception in the Apple world...).
 

JamesTheMac

Cancelled
Mar 10, 2019
61
65
Why to buy such expensive configuration if device is not useful enough for you?
Without wanting to sound arrogant, cost wasn't really an issue for me. I wanted the better quality screen, faster processor, thunderbolt, a bit more ram, 2nd generation pencil support, and faceID. The rest of the hardware features I really have no use for.

In reality, the work I do on the iPad Pro I can do equally as well on the iPad mini I have.

My point was that for the higher purchase cost, and all the extra processing power, the fact that such impressive benchmark specifications go unused by most the apps I use, makes it seem not the best value device I own, and gives me the feeling it could provide more

But as I've said in other posts, I can't fault iPadOS for what it is, in being a very efficient experience. Just not for apps that are too demanding.
 

Digitalguy

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Apr 15, 2019
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I'm not sure what the argument is. Neither Surface or iPad is better or worse, just different. I sue both for different things, as needed. As Star Trek's Mr. Scott once said, "the right tool for the right job, laddie!"
The problem is, people of this forum tend to dislike Windows, so what they would like is a touchscreen Mac.
What they don't realize is that, unless you have a form factor that works with touch (detachable, convertible) touch adds little value, even if you optimize the UI (and software would still not be optimized anyway)
But a convertible/detachable would directly compete with iPads...

Many also don't realize how hard is to turn a phone OS like IOS into something as powerful as a desktop OS, that's why it's taking so long (and still most desktop developers will never bother making a version of their software for iPad anyway...)

What we could see in the future is an iPad that can dock into a desktop Mac (eg. a "keyboard" Mac) and become a monitor for that Mac, with no touch, but pencil support. But if you were hoping for something as light as a surface pro with such a combination, we are probably decades away from that....
 
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prisoner54

macrumors member
Aug 15, 2007
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Pittsburgh, PA
It isn’t a solved problem. The touch experience of Windows is still sub-par/incomplete, there are still parts of windows that only really work properly with a mouse and keyboard. Never mind how many apps have never had themselves touch optimized and rely on things like hover states. Also, because of the larger targets for the parts of Windows that are touch friendly do not make as good use of space as they did when they were mouse and keyboard focussed.
I definitely think this is not a problem solved by Windows. The W10 (or 11) interface is simply a desktop one with some tweaks, but it doesn’t have the metaphors and feel of a touch interface. iOS (or iPadOS) and Android (almost from the beginning) are OS built from the ground-up as touch-first. Windows and macOS are not, and also have a lot of legacy software and functionality, so no matter what they do, they’re clearly mouse-based OS (it’s not only about the visual interface).

Of course you might disagree, but I think, based on the figures, Apple approach has been way more successful. That’s the real reason why they continue with iPadOS instead of macOS, and not some obscure anti-cannibalism tactic (which would happen anyway if competitors were better than the iPad).

OK, you both have a good point: the Windows experience wasn't designed for the ground up to be touch-first, whereas iOS and iPadOS were. Some apps reconfigure themselves nicely when they detect that touch is the main method of interaction (Office apps, especially OneNote). Other apps don't at all, and can be tricky to use with fingers (e.g. Microsoft's own Outlook!). But from Windows 8 onwards, the OS has made leaps and bounds, and the fact that I can effectively choose to use touchscreen on my Surface to do tasks (reading and notating PDFs, consuming content) but can then attach mouse and keyboard and 'lean in' to desktop apps to do more complex work tasks means that the hardware and OS combination is more versatile for Windows.

Previously I had various generations of MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs, and a few iPads. I just want one device, a tablet with a powerful enough processor. iPads have the power, but the OS and app ecosystem artificially hamper the versatility.

It is not just a few weirdo people like me who have had enough of these artificial limitations, after all these years. (I was the owner briefly of an iPad gen 2 - not Air gen 2 - as well as the original iPad Air, and have used more recent generations of them. Before going with the Surface I was seriously thinking about using an iPad Pro 12.9 as my main computing device. But the apps are too limited. The situation is ludicrous, as there is so much horsepower under the hood, and yet I can't use full-fat Word to produce industry-standard documentation. WTF?
 

AlexESP

macrumors 6502a
Sep 7, 2014
744
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OK, you both have a good point: the Windows experience wasn't designed for the ground up to be touch-first, whereas iOS and iPadOS were. Some apps reconfigure themselves nicely when they detect that touch is the main method of interaction (Office apps, especially OneNote). Other apps don't at all, and can be tricky to use with fingers (e.g. Microsoft's own Outlook!). But from Windows 8 onwards, the OS has made leaps and bounds, and the fact that I can effectively choose to use touchscreen on my Surface to do tasks (reading and notating PDFs, consuming content) but can then attach mouse and keyboard and 'lean in' to desktop apps to do more complex work tasks means that the hardware and OS combination is more versatile for Windows.

Previously I had various generations of MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs, and a few iPads. I just want one device, a tablet with a powerful enough processor. iPads have the power, but the OS and app ecosystem artificially hamper the versatility.

It is not just a few weirdo people like me who have had enough of these artificial limitations, after all these years. (I was the owner briefly of an iPad gen 2 - not Air gen 2 - as well as the original iPad Air, and have used more recent generations of them. Before going with the Surface I was seriously thinking about using an iPad Pro 12.9 as my main computing device. But the apps are too limited. The situation is ludicrous, as there is so much horsepower under the hood, and yet I can't use full-fat Word to produce industry-standard documentation. WTF?
I keep coming back to this “artificially hampered”. To me, “hampered” is adding one feature that won’t provide satisfactory UX, and not adding everything just because you can. Of course, there are companies that go for the later, and customers that prefer it, but that has never been Apple’s approach, and it seems like they have been quite successful with their strategy. In my view, there shouldn’t be uses cases on a primary touch device where apps “can be tricky to use with fingers”. And I think it’s hard for people to realise how adding features almost always has downsides. It’s not ”add it and use it if you want“, the fact is that adding options always increases complexity, creates unintended incentives, etc.

I would also ideally want a device that would completely replace a MacBook and an iPad. But I just think that’s not possible. If you implement the optional precision of the mouse, you loose the possibility to always use touch input, which is the core definition of an iPad. I prefer Apple’s approach of trying to improve upon the foundation of a touch based interface. And I think they’re on their way to cover 99% of use cases. Due to this lack of mouse precision, I think the remaining 1% will be very hard to achieve (FCP, Logic, Xcode…), but anyway, I think for that we’d all rather prefer a big MBP.

I’m glad that you like your Surface, but I think the ability to detach the screen to write some notes is not a substitute for a tablet. Even for those use cases, every time I’ve tried them, it still feels like a traditional PC, with its traditional window management, non-natural screen rotation, etc. Once again, I’m happy that both models exist, but I’m surprised that so many people are surprised that Apple continues with their successful iPad concept against the less successful classic tablet PC.

TLDR what you see as limitations, because your field context is traditional PCs, to me it’s maximising the potential of a tablet.
 

Isengardtom

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Feb 14, 2009
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Samsung OneUI (not "Android" in general) is the best touch based multitasking, way better than iPadOS (with or without stage manager) and then either Windows or DEX (which copies Windows) if you only use touch. Unfortunately Samsung tablets (and most Android tablets) have weak points that make them inferior to iPads (and, contrary to popular belief, it's not the fact that Android apps are blown up phone apps, which is a greatly exaggerated misconception in the Apple world...).
I agree OneUI is much better but personally it wouldn't enhance my use experience by much.
I find multitasking for me means working with multiple screens

Everything else is more "distraction" creating than anything else.
 
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bcortens

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Aug 16, 2007
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OK, you both have a good point: the Windows experience wasn't designed for the ground up to be touch-first, whereas iOS and iPadOS were. Some apps reconfigure themselves nicely when they detect that touch is the main method of interaction (Office apps, especially OneNote). Other apps don't at all, and can be tricky to use with fingers (e.g. Microsoft's own Outlook!). But from Windows 8 onwards, the OS has made leaps and bounds, and the fact that I can effectively choose to use touchscreen on my Surface to do tasks (reading and notating PDFs, consuming content) but can then attach mouse and keyboard and 'lean in' to desktop apps to do more complex work tasks means that the hardware and OS combination is more versatile for Windows.

Previously I had various generations of MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs, and a few iPads. I just want one device, a tablet with a powerful enough processor. iPads have the power, but the OS and app ecosystem artificially hamper the versatility.

It is not just a few weirdo people like me who have had enough of these artificial limitations, after all these years. (I was the owner briefly of an iPad gen 2 - not Air gen 2 - as well as the original iPad Air, and have used more recent generations of them. Before going with the Surface I was seriously thinking about using an iPad Pro 12.9 as my main computing device. But the apps are too limited. The situation is ludicrous, as there is so much horsepower under the hood, and yet I can't use full-fat Word to produce industry-standard documentation. WTF?
This is on Apple and Microsoft both.

Apple for being so focused on optimizing the App Store as a profit centre for themselves that it is no longer a viable way for developers to make money. Apple's approach has also been lackadaisical with regards for enabling plugins/extensions for apps which makes it harder to link apps together for powerful workflows.

It's on Microsoft for thinking iPad users don't want the full functionality, and this applies to most developers.
 
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bcortens

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I keep coming back to this “artificially hampered”. To me, “hampered” is adding one feature that won’t provide satisfactory UX, and not adding everything just because you can. Of course, there are companies that go for the later, and customers that prefer it, but that has never been Apple’s approach, and it seems like they have been quite successful with their strategy. In my view, there shouldn’t be uses cases on a primary touch device where apps “can be tricky to use with fingers”. And I think it’s hard for people to realise how adding features almost always has downsides. It’s not ”add it and use it if you want“, the fact is that adding options always increases complexity, creates unintended incentives, etc.

I would also ideally want a device that would completely replace a MacBook and an iPad. But I just think that’s not possible. If you implement the optional precision of the mouse, you loose the possibility to always use touch input, which is the core definition of an iPad. I prefer Apple’s approach of trying to improve upon the foundation of a touch based interface. And I think they’re on their way to cover 99% of use cases. Due to this lack of mouse precision, I think the remaining 1% will be very hard to achieve (FCP, Logic, Xcode…), but anyway, I think for that we’d all rather prefer a big MBP.

I’m glad that you like your Surface, but I think the ability to detach the screen to write some notes is not a substitute for a tablet. Even for those use cases, every time I’ve tried them, it still feels like a traditional PC, with its traditional window management, non-natural screen rotation, etc. Once again, I’m happy that both models exist, but I’m surprised that so many people are surprised that Apple continues with their successful iPad concept against the less successful classic tablet PC.

TLDR what you see as limitations, because your field context is traditional PCs, to me it’s maximising the potential of a tablet.
I disagree that the lack of precision prevents them bringing over Logic, FCP, and Xcode. I think the limitations are time, Apple doesn't seem to want to invest in their apps very often, and interprocess communication. Xcode would be a giant exception to app sandboxing in order to make it useful with all of the supplementary tools needed. I think they need a way to have developer sandboxes and they need to improve app-app communication architecture (but try to do so in a secure way).

Affinity has brought designer to iPad and it is pretty close to the desktop version, far closer than most productivity apps I've seen. I think this shows that with thoughtful UI very powerful applications can work on iPad.
 

bcortens

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Aug 16, 2007
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Without wanting to sound arrogant, cost wasn't really an issue for me. I wanted the better quality screen, faster processor, thunderbolt, a bit more ram, 2nd generation pencil support, and faceID. The rest of the hardware features I really have no use for.

In reality, the work I do on the iPad Pro I can do equally as well on the iPad mini I have.

My point was that for the higher purchase cost, and all the extra processing power, the fact that such impressive benchmark specifications go unused by most the apps I use, makes it seem not the best value device I own, and gives me the feeling it could provide more

But as I've said in other posts, I can't fault iPadOS for what it is, in being a very efficient experience. Just not for apps that are too demanding.
As others have pointed out, all the work you can do on a high end MBP can be done on a Mac mini, the extra 'niceness' of higher end hardware is worth money.
I don't want iPad OS to bifurcate into a pro and a consumer version... the extra power should just get you faster response times in your existing apps and workflows, more open apps before things get killed (and with virtual memory on the M series this is further enhanced). This is exactly how you should want a product line to be segmented, with the higher end options just bringing more niceness and speed rather than adding whole new classes of apps.
 
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rui no onna

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Oct 25, 2013
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OK, you both have a good point: the Windows experience wasn't designed for the ground up to be touch-first, whereas iOS and iPadOS were. Some apps reconfigure themselves nicely when they detect that touch is the main method of interaction (Office apps, especially OneNote). Other apps don't at all, and can be tricky to use with fingers (e.g. Microsoft's own Outlook!). But from Windows 8 onwards, the OS has made leaps and bounds, and the fact that I can effectively choose to use touchscreen on my Surface to do tasks (reading and notating PDFs, consuming content) but can then attach mouse and keyboard and 'lean in' to desktop apps to do more complex work tasks means that the hardware and OS combination is more versatile for Windows.

Previously I had various generations of MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs, and a few iPads. I just want one device, a tablet with a powerful enough processor. iPads have the power, but the OS and app ecosystem artificially hamper the versatility.

It is not just a few weirdo people like me who have had enough of these artificial limitations, after all these years. (I was the owner briefly of an iPad gen 2 - not Air gen 2 - as well as the original iPad Air, and have used more recent generations of them. Before going with the Surface I was seriously thinking about using an iPad Pro 12.9 as my main computing device. But the apps are too limited. The situation is ludicrous, as there is so much horsepower under the hood, and yet I can't use full-fat Word to produce industry-standard documentation. WTF?

I don’t see Apple allowing full blown MacOS on the iPad anytime soon but adding compatibility for the Mac App Store (so they still get their 30% cut) would solve most of the issues for Microsoft Office apps (and several others).

I’m personally not a fan of the Surface. To me, it feels like a mediocre laptop (small display and kickstand is not too “lappable”) and a poor tablet. I’d rather carry two devices, a proper laptop (either ThinkPad X1 Nano or a 15-16” depending on how productive I need to be) and a 10-11” iPad, than compromise by using the Surface. Mind, I believe the combined weight of the X1 Nano plus 11” iPad Pro is similar to Surface Pro 9 with keyboard (might even be less).

Mind, while the MS Office apps for the iPad are limited, I do find they are quite well optimized for touch. To me, that’s very useful if I just need to view documents or make minor edits.

MS Office for Windows, you pretty much require a mouse/trackpad and keyboard to work.

Even if the Mac App Store makes its way to the iPad, I’d probably keep both iOS and Mac versions of Office installed on my iPad so I can use whichever is more suitable for the situation.
 
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