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Are reliability concerns making you delay a MacBook purchase or consider an alternative?


  • Total voters
    234

Cashmonee

macrumors 65832
May 27, 2006
1,504
1,245
Agreed, but I take the notion where there's smoke there's fire and apple needing to institute a repair program on the keyboard means something is inherently wrong with the keyboard. Will it affect everyone? No, I don't believe it, am I willing to take a chance especially given the price tag? No, I'm not. Others are and I respect theirs (and your) opinion but that doesn't negate that the 2018 MBP has an over abundance of reported issues.

Your assumption is just that, an assumption. The reason for the repair program could just as easily be an acknowledgment that it is cheaper to warranty a small percentage of laptops for an extra few years and increase goodwill among users than it is to fight a lawsuit that pits you as the big bad guy against the defenseless consumer and could drag on for years with huge legal fees. The repair program does not indicate anything about how widespread the problem is.

Also, what evidence do you have that the 2018 has "an over abundance of reported issues?"
 

LogicalApex

macrumors 65816
Nov 13, 2015
1,482
2,349
PA, USA
I nearly succumbed to the reliability talk. Then I remembered I am on a forum and that it is an echo chamber that is not at all representative of the outside world. So, I checked out the other echo chambers. On the Dell XPS reddit, there is a thread that recommends the MacBook over the XPS if you want build quality. They also complain about a crappy keyboard on the XPS 15 and questionable quality control. The Lenovo reddit complains about the X1E running too hot to use on your lap and they recommend repasting the CPU and undervolting. They also complain of misaligned keys on the keyboard, low battery life, and loud fan noise. I did not check out other brands like Microsoft, HP, or Razer because all of them have pretty poor track records for reliability, and I had no real interest in anything they offered. I am certain their forums and subreddits contain exactly the same things as the Lenovo, Dell, and Apple versions.

Very well said!

The only laptop I could reasonably recommend is a Lenovo ThinkPad (and it MUST be a ThinkPad, not anything else from Lenovo). They have a strong track record for reliability and durability, but you can still get a machine with issues from them. They'll do the same thing Apple does if you have a failure and keep replacing the part with the same part until you have too many repairs then they'll decide to do something else (cars work the same way!).

I was a longterm user of Dell and I moved away when I was getting repairs every few months and I would explain to the techs Dell sent out for their onsite warranty how to do the repairs they were being paid to do. Since they ha dread less of the Dell Repair Guides than I did sadly.

Honestly though, if there was a major reliability issue this would be covered in Consumer Reports and in the wider media. Apple is one of the most watched companies in the world and if their warranty repair costs were skyrocketing it would make their 10-K (annual report) and truly independent user surveys would capture this.

The reality is some users have experienced issues which is true for every brand and every model of laptop in the market today. Buy the device that best fits your needs and offers the aftercare service you feel is reasonable. Buy it on a CC with a good free extended warranty (like Amex) and throw in Apple Care (or the OEM equal on your OEM of choice) and relax.
 

revmacian

macrumors 68000
Oct 20, 2018
1,745
1,468
USA
Agreed, but I take the notion where there's smoke there's fire and apple needing to institute a repair program on the keyboard means something is inherently wrong with the keyboard. Will it affect everyone? No, I don't believe it, am I willing to take a chance especially given the price tag? No, I'm not. Others are and I respect theirs (and your) opinion but that doesn't negate that the 2018 MBP has an over abundance of reported issues.
Well, I think I have an advantage others may not have. I was able to get the 2017 MBP for $300.00 USD off (refurbished) and I live about 2 miles from a major Apple store that sits next to a University (very popular store). I took a chance, if the device keyboard goes bad I'll walk over to the Apple store and have it fixed - easy peasy.

I would have needed much more research, or been willing to wait for the next model, had I not resided so close to an Apple store.
 
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R.P.G

macrumors regular
Oct 24, 2016
197
167
Somewhere
I was on the fence and decided not to go with MBP. Instead I bought iPad Pro and planning to buy Thinkpad X1 extreme with the same amount of money. ( with highest memory option which can be upgraded later too in X1).

Gap between iOS and MacOS would be minimal in coming days.if you want to do anything specific on Apple software do it on iPad and rest on X1.
[doublepost=1549154159][/doublepost]
I nearly succumbed to the reliability talk. Then I remembered I am on a forum and that it is an echo chamber that is not at all representative of the outside world. So, I checked out the other echo chambers. On the Dell XPS reddit, there is a thread that recommends the MacBook over the XPS if you want build quality. They also complain about a crappy keyboard on the XPS 15 and questionable quality control. The Lenovo reddit complains about the X1E running too hot to use on your lap and they recommend repasting the CPU and undervolting. They also complain of misaligned keys on the keyboard, low battery life, and loud fan noise. I did not check out other brands like Microsoft, HP, or Razer because all of them have pretty poor track records for reliability, and I had no real interest in anything they offered. I am certain their forums and subreddits contain exactly the same things as the Lenovo, Dell, and Apple versions.

The point is, stop putting so much stock into forum posts. The T2 thread someone referenced earlier is a great example. The monthly polls have received 85ish responses for January and a little over 100 from December. That is a meaningless poll when you consider that there is non-response bias (very few responses) and those that are responding want to respond meaning you are more likely to get people responding that have an ax to grind. Even with that, the percentages of those with kernel panics is only around 25%. Echo chamber.

The Gen 3 Keyboard thread is another example with the same half dozen to dozen users going round and round for pages and pages with few actual reports of bad keyboards.

Not saying that these issues do not exist, they most certainly do. You should be aware of them. Also be aware that all of them affect a small percentage of users and every laptop manufacturer has them and the "world is on fire" user forums to go with them.
You forgot how much money you are paying for MBP. If you are paying premium and expecting same QC like cheaper laptops what’s the point in paying premium. Some of the laptops you mentioned can be bought at half the price of MBP(considering waiting for a nice deal).
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Very well said!

The only laptop I could reasonably recommend is a Lenovo ThinkPad (and it MUST be a ThinkPad, not anything else from Lenovo). They have a strong track record for reliability and durability, but you can still get a machine with issues from them. They'll do the same thing Apple does if you have a failure and keep replacing the part with the same part until you have too many repairs then they'll decide to do something else (cars work the same way!).

I was a longterm user of Dell and I moved away when I was getting repairs every few months and I would explain to the techs Dell sent out for their onsite warranty how to do the repairs they were being paid to do. Since they ha dread less of the Dell Repair Guides than I did sadly.

Honestly though, if there was a major reliability issue this would be covered in Consumer Reports and in the wider media. Apple is one of the most watched companies in the world and if their warranty repair costs were skyrocketing it would make their 10-K (annual report) and truly independent user surveys would capture this.

The reality is some users have experienced issues which is true for every brand and every model of laptop in the market today. Buy the device that best fits your needs and offers the aftercare service you feel is reasonable. Buy it on a CC with a good free extended warranty (like Amex) and throw in Apple Care (or the OEM equal on your OEM of choice) and relax.
Consumer reports didn’t recommend initially. May be in next iteration review they will talk about reliability.All prominent journalists who closely writes on Apple came up with articles pointing issues and bashing Apple. What else you want.
 
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LogicalApex

macrumors 65816
Nov 13, 2015
1,482
2,349
PA, USA
Consumer reports didn’t recommend initially. All prominent journalists who closely writes on Apple came up with articles point issues and bashing Apple. What else you want.

I don't want anything... I have no ownership interest in Apple or Dell or any other computer manufacturer so if anyone stays with Apple or jumps ship to anything else or buys nothing at all doesn't matter to me one bit.

Consumer Reports has called out Apple when needed and currently they recommend the 2018 MBP extremely highly and don't note any reliability issues.
 
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Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,231
8,892
New Hampshire, USA
Well, I think I have an advantage others may not have. I was able to get the 2017 MBP for $300.00 USD off (refurbished) and I live about 2 miles from a major Apple store that sits next to a University (very popular store). I took a chance, if the device keyboard goes bad I'll walk over to the Apple store and have it fixed - easy peasy.

I would have needed much more research, or been willing to wait for the next model, had I not resided so close to an Apple store.

Do you only plan on owning the computer while it is under warranty (3 years if you have AppleCare) ?

What gets lost in the discussions lately is how the MacBook Pro's repair cost is cost prohibitive after the warranty ends.

Simple and cheap repair cost in the past are no longer simple and cheap. Every repair I can think of requires Apple to replace half the computer (keyboard, display cable, etc.) to fix and is very expensive.

Even if your late model MacBook Pro is fine now, the chances are it will require expensive service after the warranty is up.

One reason people are willing to pay a premium for the MacBook Pro is because of it's low cost of ownership over a long lifetime. Apple has changed that by turning the MacBook Pro into a disposable item by greatly increasing the lifetime cost (i.e. after the warranty runs out, it's not worth fixing).
 

revmacian

macrumors 68000
Oct 20, 2018
1,745
1,468
USA
Do you only plan on owning the computer while it is under warranty (3 years if you have AppleCare) ?

What gets lost in the discussions lately is how the MacBook Pro's repair cost is cost prohibitive after the warranty ends.

Simple and cheap repair cost in the past are no longer simple and cheap. Every repair I can think of requires Apple to replace half the computer (keyboard, display cable, etc.) to fix and is very expensive.

Even if your late model MacBook Pro is fine now, the chances are it will require expensive service after the warranty is up.

One reason people are willing to pay a premium for the MacBook Pro is because of it's low cost of ownership over a long lifetime. Apple has changed that by turning the MacBook Pro into a disposable item by greatly increasing the lifetime cost (i.e. after the warranty runs out, it's not worth fixing).
None of us have any guarantee that we will be alive tomorrow. I’m just going to enjoy today. I’ll worry about tomorrow... tomorrow.
 

Howard2k

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2016
5,715
5,672
Do you only plan on owning the computer while it is under warranty (3 years if you have AppleCare) ?

What gets lost in the discussions lately is how the MacBook Pro's repair cost is cost prohibitive after the warranty ends.

Simple and cheap repair cost in the past are no longer simple and cheap. Every repair I can think of requires Apple to replace half the computer (keyboard, display cable, etc.) to fix and is very expensive.

Even if your late model MacBook Pro is fine now, the chances are it will require expensive service after the warranty is up.

One reason people are willing to pay a premium for the MacBook Pro is because of it's low cost of ownership over a long lifetime. Apple has changed that by turning the MacBook Pro into a disposable item by greatly increasing the lifetime cost (i.e. after the warranty runs out, it's not worth fixing).


I think a sensible idea with the current generation is to buy AC, then sell it just before the third year is up and while there is still some re-sale. I’m not sure I’d try to do the 4-5 year thing.
 
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tsarna

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Feb 3, 2011
3
13
The point is, stop putting so much stock into forum posts.

Thing is, I am not an active forum user, check my stats. This is the impression I've gotten out in the rest of the world.

It's also not just the reliability, but that the new systems are not repairable. I just checked and an XPS 15 keyboard and a MBP keyboard both cost in the neighborhood of $25.

The difference is on the XPS15 it seems like a reasonably straightforward DIY job for someone with some technical skills, as everything unscrews. But Apple doesn't replace keyboards anymore, they replace half the case because everything is glued and riveted together, driving the repair cost way up.

Same with the display issue... due to the design, you can't just replace the faulty cable, you have to replace the whole display.

So to continue the car analogy, imagine that you pay a huge premium for a Chevy Corsair, and not only is it prone to breakdowns, if your fan belt breaks they want you to replace the entire engine.
[doublepost=1549159617][/doublepost]
Try one of the new Apple laptops. If you don't like it after 10 days or so, return it and try something else.

I have no doubt I would be happy for those 10 days, but I want a laptop that will last longer than that.
 

Maxx Power

Cancelled
Apr 29, 2003
861
335
Food is necessary for life, a MacBook Pro is not. Worrying about food is warranted, worrying about a MacBook Pro is a waste of resources.

Lots of us use our Macbooks for work, which we use to pay for things like food. And at any rate, this is not a black and white issue. Your position seems very edgy about the planning of computer purchases, or you are being purposely hedonistic.

Edit: I think you also misread my intention. Keeping your fridge stocked is not the same as starving to death. The fridge is a device that allows a modern person to sensibly plan meals, instead of having to purchase produce at every meal time.
 

Apple_Robert

Contributor
Sep 21, 2012
35,697
52,580
In a van down by the river
Thing is, I am not an active forum user, check my stats. This is the impression I've gotten out in the rest of the world.

It's also not just the reliability, but that the new systems are not repairable. I just checked and an XPS 15 keyboard and a MBP keyboard both cost in the neighborhood of $25.

The difference is on the XPS15 it seems like a reasonably straightforward DIY job for someone with some technical skills, as everything unscrews. But Apple doesn't replace keyboards anymore, they replace half the case because everything is glued and riveted together, driving the repair cost way up.

Same with the display issue... due to the design, you can't just replace the faulty cable, you have to replace the whole display.

So to continue the car analogy, imagine that you pay a huge premium for a Chevy Corsair, and not only is it prone to breakdowns, if your fan belt breaks they want you to replace the entire engine.
[doublepost=1549159617][/doublepost]

I have no doubt I would be happy for those 10 days, but I want a laptop that will last longer than that.
That could be said of any laptop past the return period. No way to know 100% ahead of time. That is why customer support is so important.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
Lots of us use our Macbooks for work, which we use to pay for things like food. And at any rate, this is not a black and white issue. Your position seems very edgy about the planning of computer purchases, or you are being purposely hedonistic.

Edit: I think you also misread my intention. Keeping your fridge stocked is not the same as starving to death. The fridge is a device that allows a modern person to sensibly plan meals, instead of having to purchase produce at every meal time.

I was thinking the same. If it is a primary tool used to make the money that pays the bills and puts food in the fridge, worrying about it is hardly a waste of resources.
 

Cashmonee

macrumors 65832
May 27, 2006
1,504
1,245
Thing is, I am not an active forum user, check my stats. This is the impression I've gotten out in the rest of the world.

It's also not just the reliability, but that the new systems are not repairable. I just checked and an XPS 15 keyboard and a MBP keyboard both cost in the neighborhood of $25.

The difference is on the XPS15 it seems like a reasonably straightforward DIY job for someone with some technical skills, as everything unscrews. But Apple doesn't replace keyboards anymore, they replace half the case because everything is glued and riveted together, driving the repair cost way up.

Same with the display issue... due to the design, you can't just replace the faulty cable, you have to replace the whole display.

So to continue the car analogy, imagine that you pay a huge premium for a Chevy Corsair, and not only is it prone to breakdowns, if your fan belt breaks they want you to replace the entire engine.
[doublepost=1549159617][/doublepost]

I have no doubt I would be happy for those 10 days, but I want a laptop that will last longer than that.

To be honest, you should not get a MacBook Pro. It sounds like you have already made up your mind that it will not be reliable and you will always be waiting for it to fail. That is no way to live. I would suggest the Lenovo X1E over the Dell XPS15 unless battery life is a concern.
 

BuCkDoG

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2013
643
263
I am 100% on board with this topic. I have an Early 2013 rMBP that I need to upgrade and tried to upgrade but with all of these issues, its just utterly ridiculous if you ask me. I bought a 2016 version and had keyboard issues twice so I returned it and kept my 2013 version another year. 2017 rolled around and I tried again with the newer version and had the same thing with stuck keys and issues along with the Touch Bar freezing so I returned it and bought an iMac which I have had 0 issues with. 2018 rolls around and now we have slightly better keyboards but now broken displays with #flexgate issues occurring slightly after 1 year of purchase and also T2 issues with audio and freezing so honestly I will be holding onto my 2013 rMBP for as long as possible until they can figure out their hardware issues.
 

Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,231
8,892
New Hampshire, USA
I think a sensible idea with the current generation is to buy AC, then sell it just before the third year is up and while there is still some re-sale. I’m not sure I’d try to do the 4-5 year thing.

I think you have the right idea but I'm not too sure the current MacBook Pro's will have good resale value in 3 years.

The 2015 MacBook Pros seem to be in demand but I don't know anyone who would buy a used 2016 MacBook Pro.
 

BuCkDoG

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2013
643
263
I think you have the right idea but I'm not too sure the current MacBook Pro's will have good resale value in 3 years.

The 2015 MacBook Pros seem to be in demand but I don't know anyone who would buy a used 2016 MacBook Pro.
I 10000% would buy a 2015 rMBP over a 2016 MBP ALL DAY LONG. The 2016 MBP was a complete disaster.
 
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BuCkDoG

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2013
643
263
Actually I would take my 2016 back if I thought my wife would give it up. That one has been trouble free so far. I have had one problem after another with the 2018’s <sigh>

You must be in the lucky camp then. The 2016 is the worst of all of the newer 3 model years. That model does not have the updated key membrane that the 2017 does, does not have the silicone underlay under the keycaps like the 2018 does, and also have the most tear on the Flex Cable thus prone to breaking the fastest.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
You must be in the lucky camp then. The 2016 is the worst of all of the newer 3 model years.

I think my luck ran out with the 2016. On #5 of the 2018’s and this one hasn’t been problem free either. Don’t be so thrilled about the silicon barrier, imho I believe it is a part of the current problem, not a solution
 
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Saturn1217

macrumors 65816
Apr 28, 2008
1,360
1,048
I bought a discounted 2017 MBP on Black Friday but previously I did delay much longer than I normally would have (coming from 2013 MBA) because of the reports of reliability issues. I basically had no personal computer (gave the MBA to my husband, only had my work computer) and still spent several months hemming and hawing about if it was safe to get a current gen MBP. I eventually decided to look for the best deal I could find for the specs I want (15", 16gb ram, 512gb ssd) and pray that my MBP doesn't experience any issues.

I really like my 2017 MBP but I've only had it for a couple months. Not nearly long enough to know if there will be any issues with the keyboard or screen. The screen is gorgeous and, at least so far, the laptop stays cool and quiet and has decent battery life. But I haven't tried to get real work done on this machine yet (hopefully soon). We'll see how it goes. If this computer proves unreliable, I'll probably switch to Windows but I wanted to give Apple one last shot.

EDIT: Because this is a personal computer that I only intend to use for personal projects I can afford some down time if I have to send it in for a keyboard repair. I know that many are not so lucky. If I was choosing my primary work computer or I was self-employed I would be a lot more hesitant to take the risk.
 

BuCkDoG

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2013
643
263
I bought a discounted 2017 MBP on Black Friday but previously I did delay much longer than I normally would have (coming from 2013 MBA) because of the reports of reliability issues. I basically had no personal computer (gave the MBA to my husband, only had my work computer) and still spent several months hemming and hawing about if it was safe to get a current gen MBP. I eventually decided to look for the best deal I could find for the specs I want (15", 16gb ram, 512gb ssd) and pray that my MBP doesn't experience any issues.

I really like my 2017 MBP but I've only had it for a couple months. Not nearly long enough to know if there will be any issues with the keyboard or screen. The screen is gorgeous and, at least so far, the laptop stays cool and quiet and has decent battery life. But I haven't tried to get real work done on this machine yet (hopefully soon). We'll see how it goes. If this computer proves unreliable, I'll probably switch to Windows but I wanted to give Apple one last shot.

EDIT: Because this is a personal computer that I only intend to use for personal projects I can afford some down time if I have to send it in for a keyboard repair. I know that many are not so lucky. If I was choosing my primary work computer or I was self-employed I would be a lot more hesitant to take the risk.

Best of luck to you on that model. I had previously bought a 2017 one and returned it within 3 days after sticking keys once it heats up and a frozen touch bar occurring multiple times. Also beware as those are still without the silicone membrane underneath the keycap as compared to the 2018 models.
 

smirking

macrumors 68040
Aug 31, 2003
3,966
4,022
Silicon Valley
I'm afraid to buy any recent model.

If you want to get the Dell, nobody here's going to talk you out of doing that, but if you didn't read MacRumors, I doubt you'd be so paranoid about buying a new MBP. The reality is that the new MBP is like plane travel. People who are afraid of flying grossly overestimate the chances that their plane is going to go down.

If you want to stick with a Mac, just get AppleCare. The lemons appear to be lemons. I haven't heard of too many people who've had a properly working unit for over a year complain that their machines are less reliable than any other model, but you hear lots of people who don't own a 2016+ MBP yell that if your MBP hasn't failed yet, it will. Mark their words, wise guy. Just you wait. You'll see and you'll learn your lesson.

I'm far from learning my lesson. Rather than getting more glitchy with time, it got less. I have one of the first batches of 2016's. They keyboard had minor issues that were episodic. It happened a half dozen times in the first 12 months. Zero keyboard issues in the past 13+ months. It's more durable than people think too. I've dropped mine about 3 feet with the lid open by accident. It still works fine.

As for your fear that your MBP is going to die after it's 3rd birthday, that's a concern with any laptop and we just don't know how these will fare until we get there. I've lost plenty of Macs after their 4th birthday due to all sorts of major failures (logic boards, mother boards, displays, structural failure... you name it).
 
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Martius

macrumors 6502a
Jul 12, 2008
561
1,807
Prague, CZ
Yes, for me. I have 2015 15", I have planned to upgrade in 2018, but I didn't and I am not gonna upgrade until Apple will fix all the common issues and assure their customers about it.

The prices are insane, touchbar is just another problem, no SD card reader (which is ridiculous, because 90% camera are still using SD cards). But I would be ok with all of this, if those MBP were reliable.
 
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