Have to agree here - my 2015 MBP is still going strong. It’s at my office. I use a Samsung Chromebook Pro at home and when I travel, and it’s great. But it’s always nice to open the MBP at the office and feel the difference.
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I have #MacBookFear
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Have to agree here - my 2015 MBP is still going strong. It’s at my office. I use a Samsung Chromebook Pro at home and when I travel, and it’s great. But it’s always nice to open the MBP at the office and feel the difference.
Exactly downtime costs and it's hardly encouraging the direction Apple has taken. Apple might want to consider reducing it's overly generous margins and putting the value back to the customer, equally we all know the answer to that one already...
Q-6
Exactly my reasonings for not buying the new mbp.
I have a 2011 15" mbp that I bought for £1550. To buy a 15" today with a measly 512GB hard drive would cost me £2700!!
Even if I did want to spend that much I wouldn't buy a mbp with the current butterfly keyboard. Not a chance.
Let's see what the 2019 model brings.
Well the problem with Consumer Reports is that they get something, try it for a week, and then move on. So any issue that takes time to manifest goes unnoticed by them. In addition, despite trying to appear technically adapt, they are actually pretty clueless about tech and automobiles for that matter. Their take is that they represent the average consumer (who is clueless much as they often are).
I bought the 2016 15” MBP w/ Touch Bar model new in December 2016 but decided to return it a month later (under holiday return policy) because of the issues that were known then (don’t remember them exactly, keyboard?). I feared the value of my computer would drop too much if the issues would become more wide-spread (rather than fearing it would happen to me).
Instead I bought the 2015 model.
Two years later and my 2015 model is still regarded as the best model Apple has made by a lot of people. I honestly didn’t expect it to be like that.
These days I wouldn’t spend that amount of money anymore since I don’t need the power. If I had to, I still would’ve bought the 2018 model however. I’m not ready to move away from macOS any time soon. I do understand some others are.
Instead I bought the 2015 model.
Two years later and my 2015 model is still regarded as the best model Apple has made by a lot of people. I honestly didn’t expect it to be like that.
These days I wouldn’t spend that amount of money anymore since I don’t need the power. If I had to, I still would’ve bought the 2018 model however. I’m not ready to move away from macOS any time soon. I do understand some others are.
That is fine for you, perhaps you have money to burn. But trying to minimize the issue because you are a fan of Apple doesn't serve those who need actual facts in order to make a decision. For example I like the Surface products, and I am well aware that they cannot be user repaired or upgraded. That prompted me to check on the repair cost of my items after the warranty. Given the excellent service and the reasonable terms (Microsoft will allow the purchase of a like item for around $600 (they don't attempt repair) I went with them. But I always warn people when they ask of this fact. My oldest Surface Book is going on four years old and still going strong.
I totally don't understand why people who say that buying a 2015 in 2018 was a wise decision are still using Macs.
I don't think that's wise at all, but not because I question their judgement in the rMBP vs tbMBP flame war, but because we all know Apple isn't going back. You can bet that when the next redesign comes out, it'll look a lot more like the tbMBP than the rMBP.
Why delay the inevitable?
I don't think that's wise at all, but not because I question their judgement in the rMBP vs tbMBP flame war, but because we all know Apple isn't going back. You can bet that when the next redesign comes out, it'll look a lot more like the tbMBP than the rMBP.
Why delay the inevitable?
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You mentioned already how much research you did and how your research never let you down, but shouldn't research include reliability and durability? You keep saying in so many words that you're not going to worry about the future, nonetheless shouldn't a product's longevity be part of your research?
Durability and reliability is the very reason why I left the apple ecosystem. My MBP was running fine, but with the issues being reported and the likelihood of issues with my MBP, I felt once the warranty ended, I'd be worse off and on the hook for some expensive bills. Conversely, I chose the Thinkpad X1 Extreme, for its durability, and the Thinkpad's reputation for reliability. Ease of repair/upgrade factored into the decision, because unlike Apple, its fairly easy to replace the battery, ram, ssd. I would also suspect its possible to repair the keyboard without replacing the entire top case if the need arose.
I don't know what the future will be bring, but if there's rain in the forecast, I bring an umbrella, likewise with product purchases, if there are red flags, I take head - just my $.02
I'm not a fan of Apple, I'm a fan of what works for my needs. Right now it just happens that Apple products best serve my needs. Tomorrow that could vastly change.
unfortunately it seems to be more a rule than an exception nowadays.
- mbp 2016: faulty keyboard (needs to be replaced)
- ipad pro 2nd gen: touchscreen issue (no fix)
- iphone 6s+: phone shutted off around 40% of the battery left. (battery replaced, cost me 39euros)
- apple watch 4: uneven display (replacement unit was worse), seems to be no fix here either
- apple tv 4, seems to work fine, sometimes needed to be plugged off to reboot it.
and now would i take a chance with a whining mac mini? nope... until the issue has been fixed, i dont buy a whining desktop on my desk.
would i buy another macbook pro? probably not unless they fix all these issues without introducing new issues. would i recommend to buy macbook pro to my friend? no, if yes atleast i will tell about all the issues it may have.
And how much of that decision was motivated by research and facts and how much by subjective bias and unsubstantiated fear? When you look at Dell Support forums, there are enough people complaining about issues with their Thinkpad X1's as well. The difference is that there are MANY more MacBook Pros than there are Thinkpad X1's, so the MBP gets much more coverage. Is the Thinkpad more reliable than the MBP? Maybe. The truth is that we simply don't know, since there was never any data to make such a claim.
Of course, you have a point with upgradeability, the MBP really doesn't give you that.
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I am a fan of Apple, because their software design ideology happen to align with mine. I do completely agree with you about the role of pragmatism in choosing a laptop. As it happens, for the last X years, Apple offered a tool that was much better for my purpose than anything else on the market, and it's still the case. Should this change, I will switch platforms in a heartbeat.
Ah yes, but on Dell support forums are people talking about specific systemic issues (Keyboard, display flex, T2 kernel panics etc) or just general issues arising from chance component failures? I don’t think anyone can complain about happening to get a screen with a dead pixel, but I do think there’s grounds to be unhappy if you go through 2+ machines with the same keyboard problem. In the latter case that suggests a design flaw, not a manufacturing defect.
Nobody forced anyone into the Apple ecosystem. Now people are here, things aren't working out as planned and now they're using a perceived injustice to justify their anger, disappointment and fears. Many people find it easier to blame someone or something else for their problems because that practice is more comfortable than shouldering the blame.
I'm here, I'm not going anywhere.. if I get burned that's on me. Instead of getting angry or disappointed I'll do what I've done when I've gotten burned in the past.. I'll learn from my mistakes and move on. It's called psychology and many people would benefit from leaning more about it but it requires too much uncomfortable work so they call it "garbage science" and continue falling into the same traps over and over. They're problem, not mine.. and definitely not Apple's.
I like Apple products right now because they serve my needs.. right now - and no one's opinion is going to change that. When Apple products stop serving my needs I'll do what we've all done all of our lives.. change and find something new. Do you still use a sippy cup? Do you still sit in an infant chair when you eat? No. Are you angry or disappointed because you've had to change to find something new to meet your needs? You shouldn't be.
Apple products are just machines to meet a need.. this too shall pass.
But, I refuse to allow anger, disappointment and fear to destroy my enjoyment right now.
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Without data, there is not a single person who has replied to this thread who can tell if there is a statistically significant difference in the failure rates (MTBF) of any apple computer from any year compared to any apple computer from any other year. Simply put, everything everyone has written in this thread is based on anecdotal evidance and speculation; the uninformed debating with the uninformed.
Any decision on whether to purchase (or not) a new Apple computer or not based on this, or any other thread associated with the failures of Apple computers, would be seriously misguided.
Joe
Any decision on whether to purchase (or not) a new Apple computer or not based on this, or any other thread associated with the failures of Apple computers, would be seriously misguided.
Joe
Well to be fair, anecdotal evidence is still evidence, it's just that most people reading this aren't trained research scientists and while I'm quite confident that most of them are above average in intelligence, they aren't trained to evaluate anecdotal evidence... and probably because they're actually quite smart, most of them are going to be overconfident that they know the truth when they see it.
Well, I think it helps to keep in mind when going into any situation that failure is always an option. Keeping that in mind will help to keep our expectations in check. Looking at any situation through rose colored glasses will make any failure seem worse that it actually is.
The one thing I kept in mind when buying a $1,397.00 laptop that has a history of keyboard failure is that the keyboard might fail and the device would be unusable. But, I weighed all of the evidence that I had and felt willing to take that chance. I still have people telling me that I was an idiot for making such a purchase, but my self worth is not based on the opinions of others so their opinion means little to me.
Just to be clear for others, the 4-year keyboard warranty is from the date the device was launched, somewhere around mid-2017 and not the date you purchase it.
I think what's also overlooked is that keyboards are emotional objects. When we talk about keyboard failure here, it's really an emotional conversation because people are emotional about their interfaces. I really don't think the conversations would be as rancorous or persistent if the issue with the tbMBPs were motherboard failures even though there isn't anything worse you could have go wrong with your computer.
Of all things to go wrong with a laptop, the keyboard is actually the least impactful, but possibly the most emotionally aggravating. In a worst case scenario you could always hook up an external keyboard so of all components, I'm actually least worried about the keyboard.
Still better than the usual warranty that comes with a newly launched device.
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Yeah, the fact that I could use an external keyboard made me feel a little better about a problem that I might experience.
It is, it should add comfort, just didn't want people seeing this thinking they had 4 years from purchase. I would have bought another one from the refurb store if it was.
Yes, good job pointing that out. I'll add documentation to my post reflecting when the 4 years begins, just in case someone misses your reply. Thank you.
No. This is a common fallacy. In terms of a statistically significant comparison of the quality of the various apple notebook computers, it is not evidence. A decision on whether or not to purchase a 2018 Apple MacBook Pro should not be made based on the information provided in these threads, yet, many have indicated that they are making decisions based on the information contained in this and similar threads.
And by the way, anecdotal evidence cannot be, by its very nature, scientifically evaluated... assuming that the word “scientifically” indicates evaluation by scientists. Scientists are trained to ignore anecdotal evidence.
Joe
And by the way, anecdotal evidence cannot be, by its very nature, scientifically evaluated... assuming that the word “scientifically” indicates evaluation by scientists. Scientists are trained to ignore anecdotal evidence.
Joe
Medical researchers don’t completely exclude anecdotal evidence and that’s because there are a lot of things out there for which statistically relevant findings either don’t exist, are near impossible to measure, or unethical to obtain. I’m sure what you said was true in the fields that you were trained in, but it is not true in all.
Maybe, but no one can deny the fact that butterfly keyboard has failures. I think you're failing to see the forest through the trees. We have one of the oldest, and most durable components of a computer, which apple "improved" and suddenly people are incurring failures. Even Rene Ritchie of iMore who defends Apple with every breath, admits that the keyboard is flawed and his own laptop has succumbed to the failure.
We can talk about statistics, empirical evidence and anecdotal experience till we're blue in the face, but the fact remains people are incurring failures to such a degree that Apple has been forced to address them and is facing multiple class action lawsuits. The consumer needs to determine whether they are willing so spend almost 3,000 dollars (for a 15") on a keyboard who's reputation is horrible and the may incur a failure.
Not nessesarily, Joe. There are plenty of scientific disciplines that have to rely on missing, biased or otherwise noisy data. It doesn’t mean that this data cannot be evaluated in a systematic fashion, but I agree with you that the resulting uncertainty is usually so high is that the decision theory is rendered pointless.
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True, but at the same time the little empirical data we have suggests that the chance of keyboard failure (fir 2016-2017 models) is around two times higher than that of earlier models. How high is the risk really, when you consider that the earlier keyboards were seen as ultra-reliable? 10% 20%? 100%? (as some suggest?)
The “real” chance of keyboard failure for 16-17 models is probably under 10% with most conservative estimates. And for all we know, the 2018 is “fixed” since the reports of keyboard problems have quieted down.
So, is all that really enough justification to pass in a purchase?