I have #MacBookFear

[Howard2k]

There have to be at least some of those people who are exaggerating or are OCD, but I'm sure there are still plenty of sequential failures that are totally legit.

It's actually not that improbable that a number of people suffer sequential failures. If your sample size is large enough, odds are it'll happen to a surprising number of people. There are no shortage of people who have won the lottery multiple times and some even on the same day. That's what the conversation about anecdotal evidence and research methods up above was about. Normal people will overestimate the odds of something happening if it's dramatic enough.

It's also possible that there were bad batches which would greatly increase the odds of someone getting sequential lemons if they were getting the units from the same store, or even the same distributor, or same region.

Some of the sequential failures were after topcase repairs. That presents at least a couple of problems. First, there may have been other factors in that unit that caused a keyboard failure and merely replacing the keyboard alone isn't going to fix anything. Second, anything that's been repaired is at a greater risk of failure. Any repair is risky. I'm sure some of them weren't done right.

I believe most of the stories of people who are having terrible experiences, but I also believe that MacRumors is an echo chamber that is driving people to overreact on limited information that even when true, might be more complicated than what you see on the surface.
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Remind me to never let you so much as breathe on anything electronic that I own!

For sure.


To be totally clear, I’m not suggesting that someone had multiple failures and therefore all MBPros are crap. Let’s not add 2+2 and get 499. I’m just suggesting that it (one person with several failed devices) is a more indicative statistic than “279 people created posts for reported failures”.

 

[Queen6]

Agreed although even now or at least based on 2018 figures, the big consumer groups who are as independent as you can get in the UK rank Apple well ahead of Lenovo, HP and Microsoft in terms of overall reliability. That is based on consumer feedback where I would always expect the people with issues to come out in force.

TBH it's very difficult to see a clear picture. Certainly in my eyes Apple's quality of both hardware & software has diminished with the Mac. It's safe to say that Apple is very far from the worst, equally Apple doesn't look to be improving, sadly rather the opposite.

Certainly from own experience people are not overly impressed with this iteration of the MBP with many such as myself reverting to Windows after several decades. From my perspective I don't hate Apple, I just don't care for the current direction with the Mac. I switched platforms similar to others as Apple's offerings were not adequate and/or worked against the workflow.

Q-6

 

[mrex]

A MacBook repair is currently impossible in any German Apple Store, as genius bar appointsments are *never* available in any store at all. Taking it to an authorized reseller would take 3-4 weeks. Most people simply can't afford to not have a machine for work for this long and will do everything they can to delay the inevitable repair. I would guess that the failure rate of the 2018 model is way above 10% and it will for sure get added to the extended keyboard warranty program. Mark my words.

i asked about it from a local auth. service and they said that i should leave my mbp for two weeks to them because there are alot macbooks in a line waiting a new keyboard... they said that if i need my macbook it is better to wait because it usually is done in a aday...

 

[Mainsail]

I agree that there is no definitive data on these failures available to the general public, but that won't happen unless there is some kind of disclosure required by a class action suite. Nevertheless, the number and nature of failures reports on this forum and other review sites make me nervous enough to hold off on buying a new MacBook Air until Apple gets this figured out. It's a bummer.

I will update my son's 8 y.o. MBA with a 2017 MBA when he goes away to college this fall. College students need reliable machines. Extended warrantees and Apple Care won't do you much good when a term paper deadline looms at midnight. As for me, I have a 2014 MBA, and it still has some life left. When the time comes to replace it, I will need to evaluate if Apple has improved the situation, and if Apple Care will provide enough peace of mind. I will also consider replacing my MBA with a Mac Mini, since I already have a monitor, keyboard and mouse.

If you add Apple Care to the retail price of a base MBA, it will cost $1,200 + $250 = $1,450. The retail price of the base Mac Mini is $800, and I might not even need to buy Apple Care, which is only $100 for the MM.

 

[Falhófnir]

Apple themselves were selling them as recently as last summer and they were still available new at retailers until very recently. Apple does sell a refurbished, non-dGPU version for US$1699 which to me is overpriced for that machine. But yes a used one can be a good deal.

For those talking about data. What little data we have shows that Apple still ranks at the top for reliability and that the 2016 and 2017 are at least as reliable as the earlier models, and possibly more reliable.


Funny you should mention that! Common problems for the Dell XPS15 include backlight bleed, coil whine (imagine that!), overheating, and you aren't going to believe me, but keyboard issues (repeating and skipped keys).

The fact of the matter is that all manufacturers are trying to cram more into a smaller space. This has led to a host of issues with all of the brands. Honestly, to me it is all about picking your poison. In my case, I have an Apple Store nearby and I am pretty entrenched in the ecosystem so at this point I choose Apple.

That’s fair enough - I was actually curious to know as it’s one model I am considering currently backlight bleed seems to be inescapable with IPS displays, every single one seems to have it to some degree... coil whine would potentially be annoying though I don’t think I’d generally be using the computer in an environment quiet enough to hear it. I will have to look into the KB problems further - I was unsure about the XPS 2 in 1 with the maglev KB but I thought the regular model with a pretty run of the mill KB was ok... makes it even more of a shame Apple moved away from their previous KB design

 

[LeeW]

The retail price of the base Mac Mini is $800, and I might not even need to buy Apple Care, which is only $100 for the MM.

If you don't need mobility then the MM is the way to go at the moment.

 

[GoldfishRT]

That’s fair enough - I was actually curious to know as it’s one model I am considering currently

Just because I feel I have to warn everybody.

I went through 6 XPS 15s to get one I considered acceptable. I had it all, from random crashes to severe backlight bleed to hot back to grinding fans to coming out of the box with physical damage to the sticky space bar.

In good conscience I can't recommend them. It was such a souring experience that by the time I had a unit I thought was within reasonable expectations I just couldn't feel good about it. It's a hell of a lottery with Dell - moreso than other manufacturers. You're right that certain things can't be avoided that the MacBook Pro can also suffer from - poor thermals and backlight bleed for instance - but those things come in degrees. I thought at one point maybe my expectations were too high until showing other people where my feelings about them were validated. Absurdly poor quality assurance on Dell's part.

 

[Mainsail]

If you don't need mobility then the MM is the way to go at the moment.

You are right. I am retired from typical 9-5 work, but still handle some family real estate business and volunteer for some budget committees. I can choose when/were to do content creation, so a good desktop computer in my office at home is probably all I need. I recognize that not everyone has this flexibility, since they have to be able to create content while on-the-go. For my mobile computing needs, my big screen iPhone Xr is generally sufficient. It definitely helps me be productive, but it is not a content creation device per se.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Talking about statistical data - we don't erect skyscrapers and see how many will collapse to define what is a failure prone design. We can calculate this upfront. DeHavilland Comet had a perfect structural record during first two years of service and now is a poster child of our understanding of material fatiqe. Just as Apple knew upfront what kind of issues will MBP have. They grossly underestimated from their focus groups how messy people are when nobody looks at them and now we have keyboard replacement program.

There is no need for large statistical analysis if you can replicate engineering failure at will. I can kill Macbook keyboard anytime I want. My wife does it unwillingly but I did use her 12 inch 2016 to experiment. I didn't replace it yet, because it will still end up on the kitchen table being used in the same enviroment leading to the same failure. I'm waiting until 2020, just gonna have to beat the rush. Btw - 2012 retina proudly serving earlier in the same role for two years has been handed to my mother in law and has all keys working pefectly.

The flexi cable will fail eventually, it's what flat ribbon cables do when exposed to repeating stress. Anybody old enough to remember Psion series 5? I still have a spare Flexi cable for it. The variables defining how quickly the crack will appear (not if) are related again to human behavior (how often and how far a person opens the lid) and so far the failure rate doesn't exceed what they calculated will happen. Once three years are up - mission accomplished, users are on their own.

As a mechanical engineer I'm ok with designs that introduce a weak point if that serves some greater purpose and is easily fixable. We could have break pads on cars that never need replacing in a million miles, but the stopping distance would be of a freight train. So I'm ok having to replace a $20 part every now and then and not dying while trying to stop. But I'm not ok with purposely intruding weakness in form of $20 part that requires $600 to replace for the sake of saving 2mm in laptop thickness.

 

[Falhófnir]

Just because I feel I have to warn everybody.

I went through 6 XPS 15s to get one I considered acceptable. I had it all, from random crashes to severe backlight bleed to hot back to grinding fans to coming out of the box with physical damage to the sticky space bar.

In good conscience I can't recommend them. It was such a souring experience that by the time I had a unit I thought was within reasonable expectations I just couldn't feel good about it. It's a hell of a lottery with Dell - moreso than other manufacturers. You're right that certain things can't be avoided that the MacBook Pro can also suffer from - poor thermals and backlight bleed for instance - but those things come in degrees. I thought at one point maybe my expectations were too high until showing other people where my feelings about them were validated. Absurdly poor quality assurance on Dell's part.

Thank you - will bear in mind... I think I tended to lean towards the Spectre X360 (Lisa Gade from mobile tech review calls it BOB - the best of the best). I don’t particulaly care for the black and gold colour scheme but it’s something I can live with on a machine with few other compromises!

 

[Thysanoptera]

I went through 6 XPS 15s to get one I considered acceptable. I had it all, from random crashes to severe backlight bleed to hot back to grinding fans to coming out of the box with physical damage to the sticky space bar.

Which one was it? 9550 was a mess on release, I had to lap heatplate, bend heatpipes to eliminate gaps, repaste, replace wifi card, use third party drivers because the Dell's one were either buggy or missing. But since then it was rock solid, best laptop I've ever had.

 

[Queen6]

I will update my son's 8 y.o. MBA with a 2017 MBA when he goes away to college this fall. College students need reliable machines. Extended warrantees and Apple Care won't do you much good when a term paper deadline looms at midnight.

That's the crux of the matter, it's a known issue. You may get lucky, you may not, it's a roll of the dice now with Apple these days. I travel for work purpose with two systems, equally I'm certainly not going to purchase a notebook with known & recognised quality related issues such as the MBP now has. If a MBP fails where I'm working currently it would effectively be a paperweight, absolutely dead in the water. It would cost me more in lost time than the physical notebook, and that's a fact.

Yes other brands have issues, however the MBP's issues are very clearly focused; Keyboard, T2, display ribbon cable, prevalent, with these issues absolutely killing your workflow. The rest less critical such as blown speakers, odd popping noises and more.

This notebook I'm on now is a gaming machine rerolled as workstation, yes there's issue's on the forum, equally not in such clear and obvious directions as the MBP. Asus has definitely let lemons past QC, and there's debate regarding the display and inverse ghosting, although my own GL703GS appears to be fine to me with 144Hz being 144Hz. Personally I think on the PC side there's so many applications and so many drivers, or it could be a QC issue related to the panel. I've left ASUS to push a new graphics driver if required and ignored all of NVIDA's updates and to date it's been perfectly fine.

Q-6

 

[GoldfishRT]

Which one was it? 9550 was a mess on release, I had to lap heatplate, bend heatpipes to eliminate gaps, repaste, replace wifi card, use third party drivers because the Dell's one were either buggy or missing. But since then it was rock solid, best laptop I've ever had.

9570 - the latest.

 

[tachillon]

I was quite excited to get my hands on the 15 inches, i9, Pro Vega 20, 32 Go RAM, 1 To Apple MacBook Pro, but spending 5000€ on a computer that may fail (either because of crappy keyboard or defective screen cable) within 2 two years of normal use... Meeeh... I'd prefer keeping my money and skipping this generation, hoping the next one will be better...

 

[bjet767]

The MacBook has set the bar for what a quality portable laptop should be and what people are willing to pay for. Microsoft, Dell, and all the other top name Windows Laptop makers have modeled and up their game because of the MacBook. Because of these improvements too many Apple users expect Apple to "innovate" and remain well out in from of these other models. However the problem is there is less and less to innovate to.

The OP is "afraid" to purchase a MacBook because of the issues with keyboards, repairability and so on. The truth is MacBooks are still great machines and are more than comparable in reliability with all the other brands.

So if you want to leave the Apple integration between their devices and get a Windows based computer just go and do it. Windows works fine, there's lots of software available for it, you will get all those extra ports most of us never use, but in the end you lose the full connectivity between your iOS, Watch and OSX devices. That's the real issue with moving on to another platform.
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I'd prefer keeping my money and skipping this generation, hoping the next one will be better...

Just so you know, the "next one" is always better.

 

[LeeW]

I'd prefer keeping my money and skipping this generation, hoping the next one will be better...

Just make sure you wait until the 3rd revision of the next generation, that way you will know by then what issues it has. But of course by that time there will be no point and you would be as well waiting until the next generation again.

 

[tachillon]

Just make sure you wait until the 3rd revision of the next generation, that way you will know by then what issues it has. But of course by that time there will be no point and you would be as well waiting until the next generation again.

1) I don't mind buying an ancient generation MacBook Pro if the computer is more reliable (and still available easily, with the configuration I want).
2) If I think the computer still ain't reliable enough, I have no problem to go for a Windows laptop.

 

[Maxx Power]

For those that have an interest, I chatted to friends who have a MBP.

11 in total.

4 had keyboard issues (36%)
0 T2 issues
0 Screen issues
1 Coil while
1 replacement as DoA

In the office, IT looked at 38 MBP's in Nov 2018

9 had keyboard issues (23%)
0 T2 issues
4 Screen issues (none related to stage lighting)
2 Coil Whine
4 Other (don't know what these were)

Exact stats are always difficult to come by, and you can understand the motivation behind Apple for not wanting or willing to share their numbers in any transparent way.

I think that even if the keyboard failures is a low 10%, then you add that to the screen failure rate (not sure what it is, but say 5% and increasing with time), SSD failure rate (not sure the %), other various failures and so on, it still may not be a large number.

BUT:

I accept that any of these failures can happen to any other computer, but on a MBP, especially for people who are used to the 2012 and earlier machines, the repair costs are tremendously higher than they were accustomed to (not even including an upfront increase in purchase costs), and the options for obtaining service for most is essentially ASPs or nothing. On top of that, the failures are stupidly simple - a broken key, wear and tear on a cable, etc... These used to be independently replaceable parts, for a minimal fee. To compound the problem, there isn't a clear solution for the long term (say 5 years), as replacements are themselves prone to same failure modes. After Apple's warranty runs out, you should have bought the extended warranty, then when that runs out, you hope for a "repair program", then when that runs out, I guess you are out of luck.

 

[Mendota]

Nobody forced anyone into the Apple ecosystem. Now people are here, things aren't working out as planned and now they're using a perceived injustice to justify their anger, disappointment and fears. Many people find it easier to blame someone or something else for their problems because that practice is more comfortable than shouldering the blame.

I'm here, I'm not going anywhere.. if I get burned that's on me. Instead of getting angry or disappointed I'll do what I've done when I've gotten burned in the past.. I'll learn from my mistakes and move on. It's called psychology and many people would benefit from leaning more about it but it requires too much uncomfortable work so they call it "garbage science" and continue falling into the same traps over and over. They're problem, not mine.. and definitely not Apple's.

I like Apple products right now because they serve my needs.. right now - and no one's opinion is going to change that. When Apple products stop serving my needs I'll do what we've all done all of our lives.. change and find something new. Do you still use a sippy cup? Do you still sit in an infant chair when you eat? No. Are you angry or disappointed because you've had to change to find something new to meet your needs? You shouldn't be.

Apple products are just machines to meet a need.. this too shall pass.

But, I refuse to allow anger, disappointment and fear to destroy my enjoyment right now.

If all that you said was true of yourself, then you wouldn't be here constantly trying to defend and justify your decision. I don't know what kind of research you did, because any unbias research these days all point to these various issues that Apple is having. As for Apple generating more press... It is because they are the ones that made the bold claim that they were better than everyone else. That is what sets them apart and now makes them a target. Other manufacturers will tell you that they have made a great, fine, or outstanding product and leave it at that. They don't point at others and claim that they are sub par. But that is exactly what Apple does, and now their fans want to cry foul now that they are being shown to not be so "superior" after all.

 

[ls1dreams]

Yes. I'm desperate to upgrade but there's absolutely no way I'm touching one of these with the high risk keyboard + $700 possible repair (or multiple repairs) in the future.

I'd say it's about 50/50 that we get a full redesign this year for the macbook since their chassis seem to run 3-4 years, and we just hit year 3.

2nd gen Macbook pro mid 2008 - late 2011 = 3.25 years
3rd gen Macbook pro mid 2012 - late 2015 = 3.25 years
4th gen Macbook pro late 2016 - ??? = about 2.25 years so far

Sadly it seems likely we're looking at another year of this garbage based on their tooling cycles. Maybe it's good that it will hold be out until 2020 when AV1 hardware decoding is likely to come out though.

 

[jinnyman]

For me, I wouldn't say it's fear, but it's bothering me sometimes.
As my signature, I have numerous computers which can substitute any other anytime. I have AppleCare for all my Apple laptop (other than the one for work). Hence, although reliability issue is worrisome, I believe I'm covered whenever it happens. Do I like the fact that I have to purchase AppleCare nowadays? Hell No. So that's why I started to try windows pc this iteration (and I'm positively blown by it).

Until 2016 keyboard, I'd never have to worry about keyboard, and it's shame on apple's part that this engineering failure is continuing until now.

 

[revmacian]

If all that you said was true of yourself, then you wouldn't be here constantly trying to defend and justify your decision. I don't know what kind of research you did, because any unbias research these days all point to these various issues that Apple is having. As for Apple generating more press... It is because they are the ones that made the bold claim that they were better than everyone else. That is what sets them apart and now makes them a target. Other manufacturers will tell you that they have made a great, fine, or outstanding product and leave it at that. They don't point at others and claim that they are sub par. But that is exactly what Apple does, and now their fans want to cry foul now that they are being shown to not be so "superior" after all.

The research I did included watching over 79 (I stopped counting at 79) videos (reviews, hands-on, unboxing, issues etc) from popular reviewers and only 1 of those videos complained of actually experiencing issues with the keyboard on the 2017 MBP. One video. One! Three of those videos complained of experiencing the SSD data corruption problem on the 2017 MBP, but Apple has since patched that one. I read dozens of documentation and none of them claimed to have the keyboard issue. And, do you know why I did so much research? Because the folks here at MR made the claims they've made - it warranted in-depth research. This tells me that some of the folks complaining about the keyboard problems likely never experienced the problem first hand, they're just regurgitating what others have said because it gives the Apple haters ammunition to keep fanning the flames.

I'm the one who did my research - which you know nothing about - and I stand by it.. you're wasting your time trying to get me to jump on your "Apple haters" bandwagon.

Please keep in mind that there are a lot of Apple haters on these forums, everything that is said here requires research before it can be believed. Some people just can't stand the fact that I'm happy with my devices. Your problem, not mine.

 

[Mendota]

The research I did included watching over 79 (I stopped counting at 79) videos (reviews, hands-on, unboxing, issues etc) from popular reviewers and only 1 of those videos complained of actually experiencing issues with the keyboard on the 2017 MBP. One video. One! Three of those videos complained of experiencing the SSD data corruption problem on the 2017 MBP, but Apple has since patched that one. I read dozens of documentation and none of them claimed to have the keyboard issue. And, do you know why I did so much research? Because the folks here at MR made the claims they've made - it warranted in-depth research. This tells me that some of the folks complaining about the keyboard problems likely never experienced the problem first hand, they're just regurgitating what others have said because it gives the Apple haters ammunition to keep fanning the flames.

I'm the one who did my research - which you know nothing about - and I stand by it.. you're wasting your time trying to get me to jump on your "Apple haters" bandwagon.

Please keep in mind that there are a lot of Apple haters on these forums, everything that is said here requires research before it can be believed. Some people just can't stand the fact that I'm happy with my devices. Your problem, not mine.

Well if you do 79 videos and such from dedicated Apple fans it is not the same as unbiased reviews. I am not a "Apple hater", but I call a spade a spade. I enjoy some of their products, but I abhor their business practices. I spend a lot of time on Apple's own forums and the stories and accounts there are sometimes horrifying. There are customers from places such as Egypt and Russia that spend nearly all of their savings to get what they thought was a premium product that would last a long time. Only to be hit with on of Mac's many know issues and then have Apple blame them and they have no recourse.

How about Apple purposely putting the water sensor so close to the outside that ordinary humidity would set it off and then Apple would refuse to honor the warranty claiming water damage when that was not the case, and would then go so far as to cancel the customer's Apple care and not refund them the difference. It took, you got it, a class action lawsuit to stop them from doing that. That lawsuit by the way forced Apple to refund the price of the canceled Apple care so it amounted to about $300 for each plaintiff.

The list goes on and on, and this is why, however nice some of their products are, I will not buy new from them.

 

[revmacian]

Well if you do 79 videos and such from dedicated Apple fans it is not the same as unbiased reviews. I am not a "Apple hater", but I call a spade a spade. I enjoy some of their products, but I abhor their business practices. I spend a lot of time on Apple's own forums and the stories and accounts there are sometimes horrifying. There are customers from places such as Egypt and Russia that spend nearly all of their savings to get what they thought was a premium product that would last a long time. Only to be hit with on of Mac's many know issues and then have Apple blame them and they have no recourse.

How about Apple purposely putting the water sensor so close to the outside that ordinary humidity would set it off and then Apple would refuse to honor the warranty claiming water damage when that was not the case, and would then go so far as to cancel the customer's Apple care and not refund them the difference. It took, you got it, a class action lawsuit to stop them from doing that. That lawsuit by the way forced Apple to refund the price of the canceled Apple care so it amounted to about $300 for each plaintiff.

The list goes on and on, and this is why, however nice some of their products are, I will not buy new from them.

I don't recall asking you for an explanation of your belief system. Have a nice day.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Please keep in mind that there are a lot of Apple haters on these forums, everything that is said here requires research before it can be believed. Some people just can't stand the fact that I'm happy with my devices. Your problem, not mine.

I'm probably one those Apple heaters. Just a quick recap of what I have currently at home: 15'' MBP 2018 32/2/555x, MA 2017 8/512, MB 2016 8/512, 15'' MBP 2012 retina 8/512 (*in-law visiting, but my old machine), Mac Pro 2010 2x3.47/96/16TB, 2 x iPad2, iPad 4, iPad mini4, iPad 2018, iPhones X and 8 (and spare SE used for one day when I went swimming with X in my pocket), PowerBook 2005 15'' G4, Mac mini 2005 G4 'silent upgrade'. Everything works perfectly, except for keyboard on MB 2016.

I don't remember asking you for an explanation. Have a nice day.

You kinda did, this works the other way around, if you don't want people responding to your posts and statements you made - then don't post in the first place. This is discussion forum.