I don't believe you have the power to tell others what they can and cannot do.
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I have #MacBookFear
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Correct, but that doesn't go against anything I said. The underlying data needed to make those determinations of structural integrity are available to the people making those judgements and they're being made by trained professionals. My point is that we have lots of people who aren't research scientists establishing conclusions at a greater than 95% confidence interval. Even if some are scientists, none of us have access to the information needed to produce models that would allow us to make sense of intense but random data into a reliable conclusion.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but I do believe that the problem is way smaller than everyone thinks it is because people who are not trained to evaluate anecdotal evidence are easily led in one direction to the exclusion of conflicting evidence.
LoL, no I don't. But I what I do have, are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career, that make me capable of predicting that if you post in open internet forum you will get responses.
Good luck!
Nah, it’s all good - like I said, I didn’t take issue with anything you wrote. I just wanted to clarify what I meant.
I haven’t actually been put off but I am certainly fearful. So much so, that as much as I would like to actually use my MBP, I’m afraid if I get keys stuck etc.
Is this fear a result of the forums? I think, at least in part, yes. In fact, I’d be inclined to agree with you about the echo chamber effect you’ve alluded to. I find it endlessly amusing to read prospective buyers asking if they should purchase a 2017 or 2018 MBP with the answer that they should instead buy the 2015 model! Why am I amused? Well, when I had the 2015 MBP, I’d read endless forum posts (possibly by the usual culprits?) that you should not even play light games on it as the CPU would see reduced longevity due to the shoddy thermals. It, too, got reduced to being placed in storage and was sold after a few months...
However, on the other other hand, it seems Microsoft, Lenovo etc can do no wrong. Ah well, such is life
If you're just worried about the keyboard, I think you'll be fine. I think some of the units that had repeating keys would have resolved with some breaking in. Mine did. In fact, if someone is getting stuck keys, I personally would advise them not to rush to get a warranty repair unless they're close to running out of warranty. It might resolve on its own and getting service on your laptop is a sure way of introducing an additional source of error.
Besides that, in a worst case scenario, you can always use an external keyboard. Sucky as that may be, I'd much rather have the keyboard die than the logic board.
I have to admit, the fear and loathing even has me a bit daunted even though my 2016 has proven itself to be the best laptop I've ever owned a few quirks aside. I'm considering the possibility of moving up to a 15" MBP Vega 20 this year, but I'm hesitant because of all the talk about thermal issues so I'm going to at least wait for a 2019 release.
I think the oft repeated advice around here applies more than ever. If you need it, get it. If you don't wait. I can wait. If I really needed it, I would take the plunge now.
Nobody asked you either, yet you shared yours ... because it's a discussion forum and everyone, including you and those whose opinions differ, get to post. Beware, I'm going to post an explanation of my belief system down below and I hope I won't be told off. You don't have to read it though, it's just a contribution to the general discussion and not posted specifically for you... ;-)
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I for one agree with the "fear" (albeit fear is a strong word).
I had a perfectly working mid-2014 MBP since its release. Last summer, its 8 GB RAM started to get a little slow on large data sets and I began to entertain the idea of an upgrade. I planned to use my computer for another year or so, but I started to look at the new models, pricing etc, just to get an idea.
That's when I learned that the trusty chiclet keyboard had been axed in favour of the fail-prone butterfly. It's not so much the hassle of going through the replacement process that I feared (although I expect it would be pretty annoying to be without a working machine for that reason every once in a while), but typing is 75 % of my work. I run data sets and then type long analyses of them. I tried the butterfly keyboards in store and to me it felt like typing on a hard, flat surface. Like on a table. It was beyond uncomfortable, close to painful, on my fingertips.
So I expedited my Macbook upgrade. If I needed 16GB in the future, I would have to get it in a 2015 machine and their availability was fading. At the time, summer 2018, I called up Apple resellers all over German-speaking Europe, but none had a brand-new 13" MBP 2015 left in stock. Eventually I found a slightly used 1 year old 2015 MBP 13" with 16GB and jumped at it. I would have preferred to get it new from Apple and with Apple Care, but I felt like I had no choice and time has proven me right. I still keep my eyes peeled for a brand-new 13" 2015 with 16GB, but there are simply no new ones left in my country and I can't tell you how relieved I am to have jumped on the used 2015 when I had the chance. I'm crossing my fingers that the processor will be able to handle my tasks just fine for a long, long time. At this point it runs completely smoothly.
I have always bought Macs and iOS devices brand-new from Apple since 2009. For a long-time I was a hardcore fan and it's sad to say that this is no longer true. There is no devices in the current line-up that I fancy. Even the new iPhones are too big and too expensive for me (not because I can't afford it, but because the price-value-proportion seems totally off... it just wouldn't be a sensible purchase). The new iPads are so thin, huge and delicate compared to my trusty iPad mini which has a perfect screen (I think even the sharpest screen of all iPads yet), perfect size for mobile consumption, perfect reliability and sturdiness and a perfect price. Throughout the years I have bought 4 of them. The only Apple device I'm planning to get eventually, is an iPhone 8 once my iPhone 7 kicks the bucket, but that won't be the case for the next 3 years or so. I can't say that I'm lusting after any of the new Apple devices and that is really strange for me.
In my case, I would diagnose this as "#MacbookFear" paired with an overall "#AppleFatigue". ;-)
I will say that the youtube reviewers film their reviews only after a short amount of time from owning it (and some don't even own it, they get review units). Even the much maligned 2016 MBP's keyboard didn't start failing in numbers until a period of time.
Those types of reviews cannot paint a picture of quality or durability. Only forums and discussion boards where owners post their feedback and usage from extended usage. Here at MR we see a higher occurrence of failures then prior models. That for me doesn't bode well. I myself took a chance on the 2018 model, because I believed/trusted apple modified the design in a way that corrected the issue, but as time went on, that didn't appear to be the case.
There are people who go out of their way to hate apple, and there are apple fans who are unhappy or even disgruntled. I'd say the vast majority of negative posts in this thread fall in the latter category.
I myself am in that, I still consider myself an apple fan - just not a Mac fan. My family has iPhones, I have the home pod, and I've been using Macs since the Apple Macintosh SE days. I still pay for apple services like apple music, icloud. For me that's what makes it the most painful, I've been at the pinnacle of design and functionality with apple products and now we see corners cut and design decisions that put form (and thinness) over function.
You're happy with the laptop, and feel confidant that it will be fine, I hope it does, but that doesn't remove the fact many others have run into issues and in this thread we all are posting our opinions. Our opinions are no less important then yours. You feel justified that you made a good decision in buying it, many of us feel justified in leaving the platform.
The reviews, hands-on, unboxing videos are 99% unlikely to talk about the keyboard problems for the simple reason that they have not had the units with them long enough for any issue to develop. The only issues they might face are those where something doesn't work out of the box. Look for issues on forums, not YouTube.
@maflynn Why did you stop using your MBP 2018? What happened?
The MacBook Pro is cost prohibitive to repair after the warranty runs out (keyboard, display cable, etc.) . The actual repair cost is not speculation.
If most of the repairs were cheap and easy, I doubt as many people would be concerned about the perceived MacBook Pro issues and would be less afraid to buy one.
The repair cost in my country was one of the reasons I sold my 2016. Just to replace the battery/keyboard I would have had to shell out upwards of $700. And I knew for a fact that the keyboard will break again. Covering till 2020 (in my case) will not magically solve the issue after 2020.
Just in case you aren't aware, we cannot merely rely on the results without also researching the reviewer himself.. we cannot just assume they're releasing credible information. You, like many others here, seem to use whatever information, however strong or weak, to support your agenda. Of course I'm not just going to accept a reviewer's findings as fact based on their word alone. Oh
I'm sorry for whatever loss you've experienced, but it really doesn't change anything on my end. I'm intelligent enough to know that, if I do suffer a keyboard problem, I have only myself to blame. I'll walk over to the Apple store and have my device fixed and continue on with life. Blaming Apple is extremely irresponsible behavior and it proves that people don't quite know what they're doing. But, I'm sure they'll keep trying.. they don't appear to have the capacity to learn.
It's just a machine.. it's not worth getting bent all out of shape.
We're talking about this from two different perspectives I think. There is no need to involve research scientist in the product design, all variables are known, you can calculate when it will fail based on existing knowledge. The underlying data is type of material, its dimensions and working conditions, no need to do any research on it. If the actual failure rate is higher than calculated then yes, hire research guy and figure out why the calculations were wrong. If you care of course, more common route is to sue the supplier and select another one.
Some designs are better suited for a particular task then others and this is already known. Stranded cable is much better than flat ribbon cable if the material is working and there are examples from the past of exactly the same design failing miserably under the same conditions. Keycaps issue falls more into the common sense category rather than engineering problem. Its obvious that X shaped butterfly mechanism that needs to fold flat taking the whole surface under the keycap to actuate a key will fail every time some debris gets there, pretty much regardless of its size. While the mechanism shaped like letter I, can accumulate such debris over time under the keycap without any issue.
You tell me there is currently no evidence available to the public of widespread failures that would satisfy scientific research criteria, and yes - you're right. We don't have access to such data, we didn't even establish what time frame we are talking about and what would be the cutoff value: small, tiny, big, widespread are hardly precise units of measurement. You can very easily shut down any kind of discussion on any subject by requiring a peer reviewed research paper that deals with consequences over time and not causes, especially if you require years of observational data to support a given theory.
Under specific conditions, which are fully inside the operating regime of a notebook, the new MBP will fail. I can make it fail, every time, and I'm moderately triggered by that because it was a deliberate design decision by Apple which was and is fully aware of all consequences. 2007 and 2011 GPU failures were material defects in otherwise industry standard design. This is different. Not cool Apple.
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Where did you get your PH.D.?
I think you misread my post. I wasn't saying it couldn't be done. I was talking about how your average MacRumors visitor does not have the research background needed to be able to properly evaluate anecdoctal evidence (which doesn't at all run counter to anything you said even though I don't share your opinion on the state of affairs with the current laptops).
I agree, its just a machine and I agree its not worth getting bent out of shape. I'm at peace with my decision
I think the reason so many people are getting bent all out of shape over a machine is that they feel betrayed. I think it's not so much that the device doesn't work as expected, but that the company that could "do no wrong" has done something wrong. People have put their trust in a company that made nice products and people feel betrayed because the products no longer fit their description of "nice".
Brand loyalty can be dangerous if we're not careful to keep things in check. Engaging in brand loyalty was the first mistake some of the folks here made and it was willingly made before the device purchase ever took place. I realize this information doesn't help anyone now, but it may help some folks in the future if people are willing to take note of mistakes and avoid repeating them.
Brand loyalty can be dangerous if we're not careful to keep things in check. Engaging in brand loyalty was the first mistake some of the folks here made and it was willingly made before the device purchase ever took place. I realize this information doesn't help anyone now, but it may help some folks in the future if people are willing to take note of mistakes and avoid repeating them.
Ok, we're getting closer. Yes I agree, of course. But I don't see what difference would a person with proper research background make right now since we don't have the full data just anecdotal individual reports, and we're only 2 years into life expectancy of the machine. He would laugh and ask to call him in 5 years with proper data set grabbed directly from Apple and not one of thousands of internet forums. But we can look into design and see it is fubar, establish how and why it will fail. But not when.
Brand loyalty to an extent, but more than that I'd suggest it's more because Apple have a semi-captive audience. It's quite an upheaval to extract yourself from the Mac and move everything over to windows, yet these machines failings leave a lot of people feeling they have no choice but to do that. Further, Apple actually encourage you to delve right into their 'ecosystem' making leaving even more difficult or unappealing. They then turn around and stick what's a divisive KB (some love, some hate) into their MacBooks, with the icing on top being these keyboards seem to have an above background rate of failure. We then get things like flexgate and T2 kernel panics coming down the line and I don't think it's surprising to see people becoming irate with Apple's decisions when they probably entered into the Apple ecosystem at a time when apple was producing rock-solid machines, assuming they would continue to do so.
I felt my usage habits were prime for a possible keyboard failure and instead of waiting and hoping. Part of that is, having teenagers use my laptop and as much as I forbid food around the laptop you never know if crumbs get in there. Conversely the Thinkpad keyboard is water proof and that was a huge factor in my decision. Given how quicky laptops lose their value, selling sooner then later would work to my benefit. Shortly after selling it, some of the flexgate stuff was peculating to the top, so that really gave me a peace of mind that I made the right decision.
I've said this before, I'm happy that other MBP owners have a defect free machine and are pleased with their purchases and I wish them well but for my needs and usage Apple no longer fits the bill. I think the long list of issues were enough red flags that I should have passed on the 2018 model, but I initially gave them the benefit of doubt with the 3rd generation butterfly keyboard.
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I'm no expert but I think its human nature to have brand loyalty and I think many companies work on leveraging that. Apple has had the most zealous fanbase for years, and I think that's changing. I don't know if brand loyalty is bad like you post. I suspect that was part of my initial embrace of the 2018 MBP even though the keyboard was a major concern. I've said for years get the best tool for the job and for years Macs were - at least for my tasks. Sadly, that's not the case for many of us.
Life is about compromises and choices, and I think this thread is good as it provides people on both sides of the fence to provide their experiences and opinions.
First of all let me say that I am not loyal to Apple or any other company, I'm loyal to that which works for my needs. Apple could die off tomorrow and I would still have my devices and they would still work, although not as well because of the cloud, but I would adapt and learn from my mistakes. I wouldn't blame Apple, actually I wouldn't blame anyone because it's more productive to adapt, learn and move on than to hold a grudge - holding a grudge doesn't do anything other than rob us of the resources that could have been used to learn, adapt and move on.
I understand that it's difficult to extract ourselves from an ecosystem once we're there, I really do understand this. But, it's not Apple's fault for us being in that ecosystem; Apple only opened the door, we stepped through it of our own volition and that is what some folks seem to avoid accepting responsibility for: the choice they made.
Yes, Apple has encouraged folks and they have some slick sales tactics, but it's up to each of us to research things and learn to see through the sales tactics in order to be happy with our decisions. You can list all of the things wrong with current Apple devices until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't actually solve anything and it actually makes matters worse because it sidesteps the root issue.. the fact that we chose poorly.
It's easier to blame others when we have problems because blaming others alleviates us from the difficult work of dealing with the fact that we failed.. we made a bad choice. Dealing with negative emotions is something that some folks aren't willing to do and they'll go to extremes in order to avoid the discomfort and the work involved with repairing the situation.
People have to learn to feed the right wolf. For anyone who doesn't know what that phrase means, hop on your favorite search engine and search for "A Tale of Two Wolves".
I can't blame someone else for my poor decisions.. it's just not right.
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Yes, it is human nature to have brand loyalty, but people can take steps to remove brand loyalty from the equation. One of the things I learned during my military training: "Everyone has a weakness. Find that weakness and you can control that person." The fact that companies leverage brand loyalty should be an indication that brand loyalty is a weakness that needs to be removed. It is up to each of us to find our own weaknesses and either remove them or hide them from view so that the weaknesses can't be used to control us.
Yes, life is about compromises and choices. But, also important is how we deal with the results of our choices.. and playing the blame game should never be an option.
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Erm dude... maybe you don't mean it, but you come across as super-condescending and very holier than thou. I doubt that anybody who has been sharing their frustrations with Apple's laptop redesign is "holding a grudge", "doesn't take responsibility for their own choices" or needed to "repair a situation". I mean, you make it sound like if anyone ever feels like criticising Apple they should consider therapy first.
And lots of us did "do the work involved with repairing the situation" as you preach so patronisingly. Maflynn, for instance as you just read, changed brands. I tracked down an older Macbook that suits my needs and others also have found their solutions and many shared them in their posts. Did you actually read anything people wrote here or did you blindly jump into Apple-defense-mode once you sensed that it was a critical thread? Most of us have moved on, "taken responsibility" (as you like to call it) and found work-arounds, but it's still valid for each of us to share our opinions about a brand we care about.
One day, my 2015 Macbook Pro will stop working and at that point, I would love to buy again a Mac because Apple's computers have given me so much joy with their aesthetics, reliability and functionality, all of which seem to have recently been lost. The feeling I have about this, isn't a grudge unlike you attested. The feeling I have about it is "This is such a shame, because they had it all in terms of aesthetics, reliability and functionality and gave it all up...". Of course, I'm still interested where the company goes and hope for a return to their old quality that set them apart from the rest of the industry.
I also notice you are not a long-term Mac-User. This MBP is your first, correct? I don't doubt that Apple is still pretty great for someone, who hasn't experienced old-school-Apple. But when you have the direct comparison, like I do as someone who has been using Apple products for over 10 years, then unfortunately the loss of quality is glaring and really unfortunate and unnecessary. You can't just ignore this and label people as being "unwilling to take responsibility" or too loyal. Our observations and critiques are valid.
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I Rather tend to agree and I've over 20 plus with the Mac and used them as a significant aspect of my living. Seems to be more about self justification than anything else. Apple's direction has clearly shifted over the years, now leaving many professional's in very difficult situations.
Personally I flipped to Windows as Apple's offerings simply don't stack up, simple as that. There are certainly justified reliability concerns with the MBP with usage being another factor of risk. Very likely more extended warranty coverage will follow due to impending court action. Those relying on a hardware/software solutions are very much going to be far more critical and conservative for clear and obvious reasons, something others fail to grasp.
I've frequently stated that I've never seen so many professional's abandon the platform and that remains to stand, nor is Apple doing much to stem the bleed. TBH I don't think Apple want's professional's outside of the Halo effect and OS X/IOS Devs as we tend to be far more demanding and tend call out poor practice. Likely Apple far prefers the uniformed masses who don't overly question and present a continuous revenue stream from services & devices that are cheaper to design and manufacture, boosting margins...
Q-6
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Fair enough, at the end of the day, it's your decision to make based on whatever research you do and gain comfort from. Not saying others are wrong in their views, just that they don't matter to you or I as buyers.
I am using Windows more, but, like it or not (for me) it's just not going to make me as happy working on as macOS does. I did no research and had a new 13" MBPT delivered yesterday. I have my Mac Mini but I also want mobility.
If the keyboard dies I won't come crying to MR
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Did you buy the new iPad pro?
The irony of your question just hit me! (bent out of shape, new iPad Pro) I'm not sure if that was your intention, but that was genius! No, I bought the iPad 9.7 Wi-Fi. The iPad Pro looked quite nice, but the features were overkill for my needs so I couldn't justify the price.
Well at least you noticed, my kids tell me I dont do funny often but when I do it's usually decent
I had #MacBookFear. I try to suppress it.
I had a 2014 MacBook Pro 15 inch base model with the integrated graphics. I came to realize that getting the integrated graphics was more and more of a mistake due to taking up an interest in video editing and my work slowly evolving to do more video editing work. But my computer still worked fine. Sure, editing took a little longer, but it was only about 15% of what I used the computer for. I wanted to upgrade, but part of what was holding me back was not knowing about the reliability of the new 2016+ models.
My daughter spilled some of her drink on my MBP. I was devastated. Although I was able to power down the computer and let it dry almost immediately, I now suspect that my days with that computer functioning properly are limited. I need to have reliable access to a computer, and I knew that I needed to upgrade sooner rather than later.
I had #MacBookFear. I didn't really want to drop the money on a new MBP knowing all of the potential issues I could face. I looked at very nice computers made by Dell and Lenovo that would be more than suitable for work. The problem was, I like macOS too much. I like Final Cut Pro too much.
So here I am, typing on my new 2018 MBP. I really like it. It makes me happy. I still have doubts about the reliability and got the AppleCare+. I will probably look to sell it and upgrade once the AC+ gets close to expiring depending on what the extended reliability is on these machines.
It is the price I am having to pay for the day-to-day computing experience I want to have. I am not happy with Apple about the dilemma I had to face, but unfortunately I am woefully attracted to the ecosystem.
I had a 2014 MacBook Pro 15 inch base model with the integrated graphics. I came to realize that getting the integrated graphics was more and more of a mistake due to taking up an interest in video editing and my work slowly evolving to do more video editing work. But my computer still worked fine. Sure, editing took a little longer, but it was only about 15% of what I used the computer for. I wanted to upgrade, but part of what was holding me back was not knowing about the reliability of the new 2016+ models.
My daughter spilled some of her drink on my MBP. I was devastated. Although I was able to power down the computer and let it dry almost immediately, I now suspect that my days with that computer functioning properly are limited. I need to have reliable access to a computer, and I knew that I needed to upgrade sooner rather than later.
I had #MacBookFear. I didn't really want to drop the money on a new MBP knowing all of the potential issues I could face. I looked at very nice computers made by Dell and Lenovo that would be more than suitable for work. The problem was, I like macOS too much. I like Final Cut Pro too much.
So here I am, typing on my new 2018 MBP. I really like it. It makes me happy. I still have doubts about the reliability and got the AppleCare+. I will probably look to sell it and upgrade once the AC+ gets close to expiring depending on what the extended reliability is on these machines.
It is the price I am having to pay for the day-to-day computing experience I want to have. I am not happy with Apple about the dilemma I had to face, but unfortunately I am woefully attracted to the ecosystem.