iFixit Urges FTC to Establish Stronger Right to Repair Rules

[truthsteve]

Apple has hired some really cool and smart guys called engineers. It is literally their job to, say, design a laptop that has modular SSDs

and when they have to carry modular SSDs along side the logic board in inventory, that would literally cost more for Apple to do than just carrying a single logic board including the SSD which gets factored into the price tag, proving what I said earlier. this is a basic fact you can't argue out of.

you're just not getting it. either that or you're deliberately trying to get out of this argument because you know you're wrong. that's just ridiculous. not going to continue further. 🤦‍♂️

 

[JPack]

who said every other pc maker is wrong? every other pc maker is spending more to carry more parts

you have no idea what the context is. you just jumped in without reading.

good luck arguing the wrong thing 🤣

Yes, PC makers are spending more carrying parts, right... Do you seriously believe that? Nobody but you, a MacRumors poster, is aware of that "fact." 🤣 Whether it's a $199 Chromebook or a $299 Dell Inspiron, they're spending more, right...

Everyone has read the ridiculous claim made that it costs more to stock parts.

Nobody stores any significant quantity of parts in their own warehouses. Manufacturers all "store" them in supplier warehouses. It's called JIT. Those SSD and memory modules can be used in every other PC in the world. That's what makes it cheaper than soldering and replacing the entire logic board, Apple-style.

Having SSD and RAM soldered actually makes it more expensive in most cases because system integrators can no longer benefit from market fluctuations that normally accompany those components. Apple has to stock entire logic boards with SSD and RAM and prices almost always drop over time.

 

[The_Gream]

Do you have a link to that article?

Not the original article I read, but links the original Reddit post. I don’t normally save any articles unless they are really good. Hope this works for you.

How to avoid Android iPhone 15 clones and buy the real thing — BGR

It’s Black Friday season, and you’re undoubtedly hunting for great deals on some of the most coveted gadgets out there. If the iPhone 15 is on your list, you probably know Apple isn’t the way to go. Look for sales from carriers and electronics retailers instead.

apple.news

 

[eicca]

and when they have to carry modular SSDs along side the logic board in inventory, that would literally cost more for Apple to do than just carrying a single logic board including the SSD which gets factored into the price tag, proving what I said earlier. this is a basic fact you can't argue out of.

you're just not getting it. either that or you're deliberately trying to get out of this argument because you know you're wrong. that's just ridiculous. not going to continue further. 🤦‍♂️

I can argue out of it because tons of other manufacturers do exactly that: carry modular SSDs and parts while still costing less than Apple computers.

Have you seriously not used any other computer other than Apple in the last seven years?

I’m not the one that’s “not getting it” as has been explained to you by multiple people.

Let’s take an extreme example of a very small laptop manufacturer that is going to have higher costs due to their smaller scale. Framework. Ever heard of them? They offer modular EVERYTHING.

And yet, Framework’s highest-CPU 13” laptop with 2TB of MODULAR drive and 16GB of MODULAR RAM costs $500 LESS than Apple’s entry-CPU MacBook with equivalent RAM and SSD.

Economy of scale should be working entirely against Framework. Apple is orders of magnitude larger and more established with supply chains.

Yet Framework wins all of the repairability points they could possibly get while costing less.

Go ahead. Argue against repairable Macs again. I’ll wait because you can’t.

Class dismissed.

 

[eicca]

Having SSD and RAM soldered actually makes it more expensive in most cases because system integrators can no longer benefit from market fluctuations that normally accompany those components. Apple has to stock entire logic boards with SSD and RAM and prices almost always drop over time.

Framework is another great example of how modularity reduces cost. Instead of everyone with a Framework 13 being forced to buy a new machine, they can swap just the main board, keep the existing EVERYTHING ELSE, and reuse the old main board in a mini PC or something.

 

[Motorola68000]

Repairability? Sadly the year dot, things have become more and more complicated in order to achieve the performance and reliability users expect. Arguments I see on this bb about logic boards needing replacing rather than desoldering, seem to miss the point.

People are buying Apple devices knowing how they are produced, knowing in most cases that individual component level replacement will not be possible, well not safely.

Yes repairability might be important, but the most important aspect to buying a new device is having a decent warranty in the first place, and where 1 year ISN'T equable to devices costing thousands of dollars.

Personally I feel the repair issue has been kept at the front, with Apple and other manufacturers happy to keep discussing repairability because it takes the pressure of providing a decent warranty in the first place.

A decent warranty of 3-5 years should be the norm, as anything less demonstrates a lack of confidence in their own products.

I'm not aiming this at Apple, but all manufacturers, including many white goods too.

 

[ric22]

I can argue out of it because tons of other manufacturers do exactly that: carry modular SSDs and parts while still costing less than Apple computers.

Have you seriously not used any other computer other than Apple in the last seven years?

I’m not the one that’s “not getting it” as has been explained to you by multiple people.

Let’s take an extreme example of a very small laptop manufacturer that is going to have higher costs due to their smaller scale. Framework. Ever heard of them? They offer modular EVERYTHING.

And yet, Framework’s highest-CPU 13” laptop with 2TB of MODULAR drive and 16GB of MODULAR RAM costs $500 LESS than Apple’s entry-CPU MacBook with equivalent RAM and SSD.

Economy of scale should be working entirely against Framework. Apple is orders of magnitude larger and more established with supply chains.

Yet Framework wins all of the repairability points they could possibly get while costing less.

Go ahead. Argue against repairable Macs again. I’ll wait because you can’t.

Class dismissed.

Great post. The people here that aren't Apple shareholders or on Apple's payroll that defend such blatant anti consumer behaviour are unfathomable. Apple should be forced to spent the extra dollar or so on each device to make it easy to repair, and additionally key parts should be modular where feasible, especially on larger devices like MacBook Pros where there is no excuse. As a supposed "environmentally conscious" company it's disgraceful behaviour.

The typical dopey reply to this is "nobody repairs or upgrades their devices so it doesn't matter." Of course it's rare, because it's been made to be somewhere between difficult and impossible! Same goes for cars that are made it be difficult/impossible to repair outside of specially equipped garages.

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

“As a repair shop and spare parts salesman I demand computers and phones be made more easier to break so I can profit from them.”

 

[purplerainpurplerain]

Framework is another great example of how modularity reduces cost.

Companies and fads like that go out of business after and leave customers wondering where to get support from.

 

[Imperial926]

Repairability? Sadly the year dot, things have become more and more complicated in order to achieve the performance and reliability users expect. Arguments I see on this bb about logic boards needing replacing rather than desoldering, seem to miss the point.

A decent warranty of 3-5 years should be the norm, as anything less demonstrates a lack of confidence in their own products.

I'm not aiming this at Apple, but all manufacturers, including many white goods too.

In the last few months I have had some interesting, comparative experiences. A Gaggia coffee machine, all internals replaced and upgraded, partly by me and partly by their UK distributor. I was even offered Zoom video guidance by senior company technicians and their CEO! I don't quite expect that from Apple!

Our 7 year-old Panasonic TV blew up and whilst it seems 7 years is seen as good going, it was interesting trying to repair it. No power supply boards available, either to me or the repair company who kept it for 2 weeks in the effort to save what was an excellent 4K HDR TV. Such a waste! I haven't bought another TV.

Apple MacBook Pro with a battery 'service recommended' warning. Sometimes the laptop cuts out on battery shortly after start-up. Apple Genius Bar wanted £200 and 2 weeks to replace the battery and warned me that that any other aspects deemed faulty would be extra.

Our Miele dishwasher - 15 years old - 1st ever callout. A fixed charge of £270 for all parts and labour. If machine declared unrepairable the £270 would be taken off the cost of a new machine. Miele engineer changed parts totalling £300 so I had good value. machine now working as new.

The difference I see here is that 2 of my old devices have a new lease of life although, unlike a laptop the technology has not seen so much if any change.

My MacBook Pro remains without a new battery because I just can't afford to be without it for 2 weeks and I feel the already high charge seems to know no limit. I don't expect most components to be user-replaceable but something as predictably finite as a battery should at least be able to be replaced in-store by Apple.

 

[ric22]

In the last few months I have had some interesting, comparative experiences. A Gaggia coffee machine, all internals replaced and upgraded, partly by me and partly by their UK distributor. I was even offered Zoom video guidance by senior company technicians and their CEO! I don't quite expect that from Apple!

Our 7 year-old Panasonic TV blew up and whilst it seems 7 years is seen as good going, it was interesting trying to repair it. No power supply boards available, either to me or the repair company who kept it for 2 weeks in the effort to save what was an excellent 4K HDR TV. Such a waste! I haven't bought another TV.

Apple MacBook Pro with a battery 'service recommended' warning. Sometimes the laptop cuts out on battery shortly after start-up. Apple Genius Bar wanted £200 and 2 weeks to replace the battery and warned me that that any other aspects deemed faulty would be extra.

Our Miele dishwasher - 15 years old - 1st ever callout. A fixed charge of £270 for all parts and labour. If machine declared unrepairable the £270 would be taken off the cost of a new machine. Miele engineer changed parts totalling £300 so I had good value. machine now working as new.

The difference I see here is that 2 of my old devices have a new lease of life although, unlike a laptop the technology has not seen so much if any change.

My MacBook Pro remains without a new battery because I just can't afford to be without it for 2 weeks and I feel the already high charge seems to know no limit. I don't expect most components to be user-replaceable but something as predictably finite as a battery should at least be able to be replaced in-store by Apple.

Except a couple of models where Apple aggressively glued down the battery, batteries can be replaced by the user. Yes, it can be a pain in the arse because they choose to make it annoyingly time consuming, but it is doable.

Next time a dishwasher or washing machine breaks, try to fix it yourself, if you like tinkering with electronics and machinery as I do. I've always repaired them for myself and my immediate family- it's usually easy to do, especially with guides online and parts so easy to come by.

 

[Imperial926]

Except a couple of models where Apple aggressively glued down the battery, batteries can be replaced by the user. Yes, it can be a pain in the arse because they choose to make it annoyingly time consuming, but it is doable.

Next time a dishwasher or washing machine breaks, try to fix it yourself, if you like tinkering with electronics and machinery as I do. I've always repaired them for myself and my immediate family- it's usually easy to do, especially with guides online and parts so easy to come by.

I appreciate your views. My battery is indeed glued down and requires acetone to remove it. A number of people on iFixit report their failure to successfully carry out the replacement procedure, damaging cables in the process. I have replaced batteries in older iPhones and I have swapped out/upgraded hard drives and RAM in older machines. However, even getting the back off my MacBook Pro is not simply screws - it has to be carefully prised off and things just get harder after that.

I think my main point is that whereas years ago Apple shops did much while the customer waited (at least in my experience) they now send your device off for what should be a quick turnaround item. Do they think that all 'Pro' owners should have an equivalent device immediately available?

I will probably buy another one in the end but it will no longer be a higher spec - I will see it as something that may be either unrepairable or expensive or having to be sent away within 5 years.

 

[1129846]

Great post. The people here that aren't Apple shareholders or on Apple's payroll that defend such blatant anti consumer behaviour are unfathomable. Apple should be forced to spent the extra dollar or so on each device to make it easy to repair, and additionally key parts should be modular where feasible, especially on larger devices like MacBook Pros where there is no excuse. As a supposed "environmentally conscious" company it's disgraceful behaviour.

The typical dopey reply to this is "nobody repairs or upgrades their devices so it doesn't matter." Of course it's rare, because it's been made to be somewhere between difficult and impossible! Same goes for cars that are made it be difficult/impossible to repair outside of specially equipped garages.

The other part that "nobody repairs or upgrades" argument is you are right I MIGHT not upgrade it but the person I pass the laptop onto more than likely will. There also are plenty of people who take older laptops, repair them and resale and if they can not repair them they harvest them for parts to repair other older machines.

 

[ric22]

The other part that "nobody repairs or upgrades" argument is you are right I MIGHT not upgrade it but the person I pass the laptop onto more than likely will. There also are plenty of people who take older laptops, repair them and resale and if they can not repair them they harvest them for parts to repair other older machines.

Absolutely. 100%. If my old MacBook Air's RAM hadn't died and killed the whole thing I'd have handed it down to my mum or a niece. I always hand down my old stuff when I can, and in the past used to regularly replace a battery or throw in a new SSD or more RAM when they told me it was needed.

 

[dandyman96]

Some of these demands would see iPhone thefts skyrocket.

uh, how. Citation needed.

 

[Imperial926]

A few weeks elapse and again we find that the real price of an M3 MacBook Pro needs to factor in RAM quantities and SSD size more than ever. Almost all YouTubers are finding that the whilst the basic M3 option should have been a good deal, most people should either buy the M2, stick with their M1 or spend considerably more to add value and longevity to their investment.
My personal decision is to stick with a Mac Mini M1 16/512 and browse using an Intel MacBook Pro from the dreaded 2016 era. A 16/512 M3 as the entry point would have lured me in.

 

[I7guy]

I can argue out of it because tons of other manufacturers do exactly that: carry modular SSDs and parts while still costing less than Apple computers.

Have you seriously not used any other computer other than Apple in the last seven years?

I’m not the one that’s “not getting it” as has been explained to you by multiple people.

Let’s take an extreme example of a very small laptop manufacturer that is going to have higher costs due to their smaller scale. Framework. Ever heard of them? They offer modular EVERYTHING.

And yet, Framework’s highest-CPU 13” laptop with 2TB of MODULAR drive and 16GB of MODULAR RAM costs $500 LESS than Apple’s entry-CPU MacBook with equivalent RAM and SSD.

Economy of scale should be working entirely against Framework. Apple is orders of magnitude larger and more established with supply chains.

Yet Framework wins all of the repairability points they could possibly get while costing less.

Go ahead. Argue against repairable Macs again. I’ll wait because you can’t.

Class dismissed.

Framework laptops also cost, while one could get a dell inspiron for $300. The lightest and thinnest Mac’s are also light and are easily held with one hand whilst open. I don’t know if the same can be said for framework laptops. The jury is still out.

 

[eicca]

Framework laptops also cost, while one could get a dell inspiron for $300. The lightest and thinnest Mac’s are also light and are easily held with one hand whilst open. I don’t know if the same can be said for framework laptops. The jury is still out.

The Framework 13 I tested was surprisingly light, easily one-handable, and also didn’t feel flimsy. Build quality is quite good.

 

[I7guy]

The Framework 13 I tested was surprisingly light, easily one-handable, and also didn’t feel flimsy. Build quality is quite good.

A MacBook 15 inch m2 weighs about 3.3 lbs and gets up to 18 hours battery life. A framework 13 weighs about 2.9 lbs and gets about 11 hours battery life.

So maybe there is something to it in the way that apple manufactures its’ computers.

It seems like ifixit lobbying the ftc is akin to the fox guarding the henhouse.

 

[eicca]

A MacBook 15 inch m2 weighs about 3.3 lbs and gets up to 18 hours battery life. A framework 13 weighs about 2.9 lbs and gets about 11 hours battery life.

So maybe there is something to it in the way that apple manufactures its’ computers.

It seems like ifixit lobbying the ftc is akin to the fox guarding the henhouse.

Apple also has waaaaaaaay bigger engineering teams and budgets.

Point is, if Framework can do it with how tiny they are, Apple has zero excuse not to other than they hate consumer rights.

 

[I7guy]

Apple also has waaaaaaaay bigger engineering teams and budgets.

That is why the MacBook is the way it is. All that engineering prowess.

Point is, if Framework can do it with how tiny they are, Apple has zero excuse not to other than they hate consumer rights.

I’m gonna suggest your spitballing and nobody here (excluding those apple execs masquerading as poster) knows the decisions behind Apples’ engineering. While it could be to trample on consumer rights, it could also be to produce the lightest, thinnest, most powerful laptop.

 

[eicca]

That is why the MacBook is the way it is. All that engineering prowess.

And with less prowess many years ago they were still making cutting-edge hardware that could actually be repaired.

They could absolutely do it if they chose.

 

[I7guy]

And with less prowess many years ago they were still making cutting-edge hardware that could actually be repaired.

They could absolutely do it if they chose.

Sure, maybe at the cost of weight and size. We can speculate all we want.

 

[cmcbhi]

One problem with Framework. 1TB max drive, lower resolution screen,

I can argue out of it because tons of other manufacturers do exactly that: carry modular SSDs and parts while still costing less than Apple computers.

Have you seriously not used any other computer other than Apple in the last seven years?

I’m not the one that’s “not getting it” as has been explained to you by multiple people.

Let’s take an extreme example of a very small laptop manufacturer that is going to have higher costs due to their smaller scale. Framework. Ever heard of them? They offer modular EVERYTHING.

And yet, Framework’s highest-CPU 13” laptop with 2TB of MODULAR drive and 16GB of MODULAR RAM costs $500 LESS than Apple’s entry-CPU MacBook with equivalent RAM and SSD.

Economy of scale should be working entirely against Framework. Apple is orders of magnitude larger and more established with supply chains.

Yet Framework wins all of the repairability points they could possibly get while costing less.

Go ahead. Argue against repairable Macs again. I’ll wait because you can’t.

Class dismissed.

You might want to bring your class back in session to check your prices. The MacBook Air with the M1 chip, 2TB disk and 16GB RM is $500 LESS than Framework Highest CPU w/ equivalent storage. And you must use an easily crackable Operating system.

NB. My first machine was an IBM w/ 256K ram and two 5.25" floppy drives. I built machines from parts for decades. I just don't want to do that any more.
If my Apple product needs repair, I'll send it to Apple.
And I don't want any sticky fingered jackleg ripping my machines apart.

 

[eicca]

You might want to bring your class back in session to check your prices. The MacBook Air with the M1 chip, 2TB disk and 16GB RM is $500 LESS than Framework Highest CPU w/ equivalent storage. And you must use an easily crackable Operating system.

I don’t know what website you’re using, but an M1 Air configured to 2TB/16GB is $1999 and a Framework 13 configured to 2TB/16GB with the most expensive choices is $1768.

Chop $199 off the Framework price if you use Linux.

Class dismissed again, and don’t bother me unless you’ve double checked your homework.