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yoda13

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2003
1,468
2
Texas
iGary, that just plain sucks!!:mad:

I am a huge Apple fanboy, and if they treated me like this, then I don't think I would be an apple customer anymore, and I have NEVER owned a windows machine....EVER. I am sorry for your troubles. They owe you a new machine, an apology, and a few cold beers, or a nice bottle of wine if you prefer. I have always preferred beer. Anyway, I hope you stay in the fold, but damn, if I were you, I would sell what I have that still worked, throw the rest in the trash, and purchase another brand. Or at least, I would be sorely tempted to do that. Anyway, this just really sucks.:(
 

eVolcre

macrumors 68000
Jan 7, 2003
1,979
587
Do you have any attorney friends who could do you a favor? An overnighted official letter from an atorney outlining the issues, your emails, your actions and this thread might be something to consider ... You've gone thruoh hell and beyond at this point and you're 'giving up' (which is totally acceptable btw) when you should be getting taken care of by Apple.

eV
 

eVolcre

macrumors 68000
Jan 7, 2003
1,979
587
yoda13 said:
iGary, that just plain sucks!!:mad:

I am a huge Apple fanboy, and if they treated me like this, then I don't think I would be an apple customer anymore, and I have NEVER owned a windows machine....EVER. I am sorry for your troubles. They owe you a new machine, an apology, and a few cold beers, or a nice bottle of wine if you prefer. I have always preferred beer. Anyway, I hope you stay in the fold, but damn, if I were you, I would sell what I have that still worked, throw the rest in the trash, and purchase another brand. Or at least, I would be sorely tempted to do that. Anyway, this just really sucks.:(


As an absolutely irrelevent aside, it's ironic that YODA is advising the path of anger ... :D :D

eV
 

QCassidy352

macrumors G5
Mar 20, 2003
12,066
6,107
Bay Area
So sorry your troubles continue! I've had to deal with unhelpful apple tech support by phone before and it's very frustrating. They don't call back, they refuse to connect you to anyone higher, and they are generally inept...

It really may be time to consider some sort of legal action, or at least mentioning that to apple. This machine is a lemon, and might be covered as such under your state's lemon law.

I don't like to make a big fuss, and apparently you don't either, but sometimes it's necessary. Polite isn't working here; it's time for threats. Just MHO.
 

hob

macrumors 68010
Oct 4, 2003
2,004
0
London, UK
I used to think Apple was a nice friendly company. Then I realised they're just another corporation doing everything they can to maximise profits. That includes pissing off the odd customer if they think they can get away with it.

I bet the customer service dept. got told off for giving too much away. I wanted my iBook G3 swapped for an iBook G4, because the logic board kept crapping out. They were happy to accommodate, except they have me a powerbook G4. That's probably the kind of thing they've been cracking down on. Except now they've gone too far, and you can't even be reasonable with them.

I accidentally broke a key off my keyboard, they replaced it with an American one. I've just done the same stupid thing again, but I'm not looking forward to calling them up... I have to tell them I broke it again, but they need to replace it for a British one due to the initial screw up... Judging by iGary's woes I may be in for a long phone call... might just wait for next months free minutes to kick in first...
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
eVolcre said:
Do you have any attorney friends who could do you a favor? An overnighted official letter from an atorney outlining the issues, your emails, your actions and this thread might be something to consider ... You've gone thruoh hell and beyond at this point and you're 'giving up' (which is totally acceptable btw) when you should be getting taken care of by Apple.

eV
Attorneys don't generally like to pull the "I'm writing a letter for you on my attorney-at-law letterhead" stunt if it's solely as a bluff. Use of that trick won't be effective if overdone, and unlike antibiotics, we can't just keep coming up with new forms of letters. It also has the undesirable result of sucking the lawyer into the case.

In this case, while completely and totally unacceptable behavior on Apple's part, it's not contrary to law. They haven't refused to fix the problem; they're simply dragging their feet for some unbeknownst reason. I'd be back on the phone with an Apple Store saying that nothing has been done AT ALL in over five days and that this is an ongoing issue still unresolved after many weeks, and that at the very least, they owe you a loaner system while they sort the kinks out (and if the loaner ends up being as good or better spec'd than the problematic G5 you might even just end up keeping it).

PS - Lemon laws are for vehicles only in almost all locations and sadly do not apply here.
 

iGary

Guest
Original poster
May 26, 2004
19,580
7
Randy's House
The main issue is I just don't have anymore two-hour windows in my schedule to deal with these toolbags - If I wasn't busy, I'd keep on with it, but I have customers to try and keep happy.

Like I said, don't think owning a pro machine means anything to these people, or that your inconvenience is even a factor - they really don't care - at all. I've never experienced this with any company in my life. When my Honda had a leaky strut 5,000 miles out of warranty, they agreed to split the cost with me...Apple just tells you to go fork yourself.

All the THIRD PARTY RAM and THIRD PARTY VIDEO CARD and THIRD PARTY SOFTWAREZ is back on my machine and I'll do whatever I can to keep it from panicking until they decide what's wrong, which is probably nothing, ACCORDING TO THEM.
 

CanadaRAM

macrumors G5
matticus008 said:
PS - Lemon laws are for vehicles only in almost all locations and sadly do not apply here.
Check out the "Implied Suitability for Merchantibility" statutes -- generally, these say, if it is sold as a duck, it had better perform as a duck. Any goods that are sold are implied to be (and legally must be, warranties and disclaimers notwithstanding) the thing that they are supposed to be. So a computer has to be a functioning computer, not a case with a bunch of potatoes inside.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
CanadaRAM said:
Check out the "Implied Suitability for Merchantibility" statutes -- generally, these say, if it is sold as a duck, it had better perform as a duck. Any goods that are sold are implied to be (and legally must be, warranties and disclaimers notwithstanding) the thing that they are supposed to be. So a computer has to be a functioning computer, not a case with a bunch of potatoes inside.
And it is a functioning computer. "Implied suitability" or as it is more commonly known, an "implied warranty of fitness" does not cover defective merchandise or aberrations directly--it is only meant to prevent deceitful business practices. The computer, when it works, is a computer, and the implied warranty is met.

There are state and federal warranty laws that cover repairs, express warranty provisions, and the like, but only when Apple says that they're not going to repair the problem, replace or refund the machine, or attempt any further resolution does that apply. When they do give up on you, iGary, hang 'em out to dry--you'll probably get an even bigger settlement out of the fact that they dragged their feet and ostensibly caused substantial disruption to your personal and professional life.
 

Artful Dodger

macrumors 68020
Time to make a call to a lawyer friend if you have a few of those Gary, or call the news up and see what they can do, really can't get worse since they "Apple" won't replace or fix it for you.
After this I really don't think AppleCare is all that it seems to be, I had troubles with help before and then help as well but more stories are ending like yours. I'd check local laws or something, hell do I hear a power surge ;)
Anyway I'd pull all the info and give it to the local Paper, have them do a write-up and try that, at least others may respond it happened to them as well. I really don't think what they have done is right, not the least and it shows how little they care about the case no matter that it is business or personal related use wise.
 

bodeh6

macrumors 6502a
May 18, 2005
773
0
I would not stand for this crap. I would contact Steve and get a lawyer involved. I hate customer support. I had a D-link router go bad and was on tech support for close to 4 hours over 2 days telling me the same crap and that you should reset, unplug, replug and all the same stuff I have been doing. I said screw the warranty and bought a LinkSys router just to despise them.
 

erickg

macrumors 6502
Nov 4, 2004
327
0
iGary, I'm truly sorry for all of your problems. I hope Apple resolves it all very soon with a nice, new PM.

I just looked at your Spa Creek 360 website (which looks very nice btw) and thought it was funny that you write under the "About Us" section: "Superior Quality: [...] and a state of the art Apple Macintosh Dual 2.7 GHz Power Mac system to render your 360-degree images in pristine quality with a minimum of muss and fuss." :eek:

I hope you don't get too upset with me, but I think you might need to update your website. :p
 

devilot

Moderator emeritus
May 1, 2005
15,584
1
Gary, we've seen the hoopla that can arise from getting the media involved-- such as the young girl who wrote a letter to Apple.

Have you considered contacting a newspaper's Action Line or some sort of consumer protection column? And then, maybe the local news station?

Perhaps, file a complaint w/ the BBB?
 

iGary

Guest
Original poster
May 26, 2004
19,580
7
Randy's House
I finally got the right e-mail for Steve from a friendly (thank you) MR member, and I sent this letter this evening:

Dear Mr. Jobs -

I’d like to start off my saying I am an ardent supporter and big-time fan of Apple Computer. In fact, many of my friends believe I really did drink magic Kool-Aid at some point. I own three iPods, a PowerBook, a Power Mac G5 and a 30” Apple Cinema Display. And yes, I have an Apple sticker on the back of my car. I'm one of those nut jobs that waits outside stores for software releases and new store openings. I'm an active Internet user and participate actively on many Apple-based fan sites.

I've not had a good nine months with Apple, unfortunately.

In July of last year, I purchased a Dual 2.7GHz PowerMac G5 and two 20-inch Apple Cinema Displays for my burgeoning photography business. Within three months, hairs and dust were appearing behind the protective LCD covers of both displays and in fact, one was so bad (serial # 2A5204N5PKK) I finally decided to take it in for repair. It was fixed under warranty on repair number R5505110. With a couple of hairs in the other display, I decided to cut my losses, sell both displays to private parties, and on October 9, I purchased a 30-inch Cinema Display to replace them. I brought the unit home (serial # CY52408JPKM), and within four hours, there were small pixel anomalies flickering across the whole panel (not dead or stuck), so I returned it to the store for an exchange. I brought this unit home, and after an hour of use, it (serial # CY526135PKM) literally burnt up and stopped working. Now counting three trips to the local Apple Store in Annapolis, the second defective unit was exchanged for another new unit (serial # CY5370*****), which has worked successfully to date. It is currently covered under Apple Care protection.

Now the matter of my Power Mac G5, which I have only had for nine months. Since the day I got it, it’s had more than its occasional share of application shut downs, unresponsive Apple applications and Apple software that had to be forced to quit. Really only minor inconveniences, but bothersome nonetheless, but nothing I felt warranted a visit to the Apple Store here in Annapolis.

In February of this year, the Power Mac started to exhibit some disturbing behavior that I simply could not ignore. When trying to restart the computer from a cold start, the unit would only make it half way through the power on self-test and would only sound a partial “bong.” When this happened, I took all the usual precautions – I ran FSCK in single-user mode, reset the PRAM, reset the NVRAM, reset the firmware in Open Firmware, and as a final resort, I purchased a copy of DiskWarrior and ran it in from the CD. It still had problems both booting and shutting down. Also at this time, the computer stopped sleeping automatically, and in certain cases would not sleep at all. It would shut down, never fully sleep, and then I would return to the computer later to find the cooling fans running at full speed, requiring a hard shutdown via the power button. I reinstalled the OS several times on two separate internal drives and even swapped the drives into different internal bays to rule out the possibility of a bad SATA cable. I’d say I had reinstalled the OS in the neighborhood of about eight times at this point. As a last ditch effort, I ran Tech Tools and Apple’s own hardware test, and the machine passed.

In early April of this year, I finally took the unit into my local Apple Store to find out what the problem was. Unfortunately, the unit would not exhibit these problems and I was sent on my way (visit #1). I came back a second time when the problems persisted, and again, the computer would not duplicate the symptoms (visit #2). After these problems persisted, I made the hypothesis that the unit would only exhibit the failed boot/sleep issues when it was warm, so I took the unit back to the Apple Store, and asked Adam Stevenson at the Genius Bar to make an exception and keep it for the day and run it through the paces (visit#3). Luckily, the unit did fail to boot while it was the Apple Store and a repair order was initiated under repair number R7790826 to replace both of the processors. I picked up the unit five days later (April 14) and was on my way.

While I noticed that the unit was booting properly when I got home on the 14th, it was intermittently locking up on restart commands, kernel panicking and it would not sleep automatically. It would, however, sleep manually from the Apple menu. The morning of the 15th, I woke up to the fans running full blast after manually initiating a sleep command the night before, so I immediately decided to reinstall the OS. Again.

I reinstalled OS X (the disk that came with the unit), and only left the DVI connector from the monitor plugged in (I was trying to isolate a peripheral I/O being the issue). I slowly added peripherals (first the FireWire connection from the Apple Cinema Display), let the unit go into a “deep sleep” (allowing an hour to pass between each wake up), and then continued add peripheral devices hour-by-hour to the chain. By the time I was done, I had the FireWire from the Apple Cinema Display plugged into the back, USB from the Apple Cinema Display plugged into the back, a FireWire 800 external HDD plugged into the back, network cable plugged into the back, an iPod plugged into a FireWire PCI Card and a FireWire Compact Flash card reader also plugged into that same PCI card. Up to this point, there were no issues with sleep etc. I then plugged in my iPod nano into my USB 2.0 PCI card, and the unit refused to sleep. I took it out, and it would sleep, so I removed that card entirely.

At this point, I decided to run all the recommended software updates provided by Apple through Software Update, and slowly add the applications that are most vital to my work piece by piece, trying to sleep for an hour between the additions of each application. Eventually I had all of my applications installed and got back to work. On the April 17, the machine kernel panicked. I restarted the computer and continued working in Aperture, Word, Safari and Mail. I tried to sleep the machine before running some errands, and I found it had run up to full bore on the fans upon my return that afternoon.

Honestly frustrated at this point, I took the unit back to the Apple Store in the Annapolis Mall (visit #4), and Adam Stevenson ran a full diagnostics test on the hardware (while I waited) that took four hours to complete. It passed all tests. When Adam went to restart the machine, it kernel panicked. When he tried again, the screen started flashing. He told me that since it had passed the hardware test, it must be software related and, again, sent me on my way.

Upon getting home I went through the whole same routine again, slowly and cautiously reinstalling my apps, OS X first. In the middle of the erase and install, the machine kernel panicked, so I tried installing it on a separate internal drive and booting from the lower “B” bay. I also tried running a fresh install from the upper “A” bay. The unit still refused to sleep automatically, and would still lock up on waking from deep sleep.

At this point, I decided to get AppleCare involved (Case #62186661). Tom was the first gentleman I spoke with, and he quickly went down a list of things to try, which I had already done. He decided to transfer me to a specialist, and John picked up the phone to help. We reset the firmware and NVRAM, and it seemed to operate OK after that. About an hour later, I left my desk to run some errands, the machine slept on it’s own, and would not reawake.

I phoned AppleCare again. This time Harley answered the phone and after a series of questions passed me on to Chris. Chris finally recommended that I install the OS as it is on the disc (remember I have reformatted a couple of drives at least a dozen times at this point), not run any software updates, do not install any of my other software, remove all the RAM, except the Apple RAM and see if it will duplicate the problem. He told me that if the problem persists with only Apple RAM and the bare essential OS in the system I would have real merit to take it back into the Apple Store for more diagnostic work.
 

iGary

Guest
Original poster
May 26, 2004
19,580
7
Randy's House
Eventually, I spoke to an AppleCare specialist, Alvin, who had me take the machine in again with a case number (visit #5). This time they replaced the logic board, and told me that the PMU tested within spec. Upon bringing it home, it failed to boot, and since then has been kernel panicking on a regular basis - this time on sleep, on boot, and also during normal operation. I phoned AppleCare again, and after three days and six to eight people, I was finally given to Michael Guerra on Wednesday April 26, and he assured me that this was an issue that needed to be resolved. He sent me an e-mail containing a disk image of a data capture program so that engineering could look at the Kernel Caches to address the wake from sleep, boot and other Kernel Panic issues I was dealing with. I ran the program, e-mailed it back to him and he told me that he would get back to me that day at the earliest, and Thursday morning at the absolute latest.

Thursday came and went, Friday came and went and since I had received no correspondence from anyone at Apple, I decided to try and reach Michael, but got his voicemail. I was a bit concerned that maybe something had gotten lost and that no one was aware of the case, so I called AppleCare again and was given to Doug. After going through all of my case files, he said that engineering had gotten back to Michael and had a couple of questions, which he relayed to me and I answered. He told me that someone would be back in touch with me on Monday.

Monday came and at 12:00 EST, I decided to see what was happening. I initially spoke to Chris who said "whoa" when he looked at my case file, and was eventually given to John, who told me that they still had not heard back from engineering, and the reason I haven't heard from Michael is that he has not been at work (Michael sits next to John, apparently). John said that there was nothing he could do to escalate my case any further, and that there was no one else that I could talk to to resolve my issue. I explained to him at this point that I had about eight to ten hours of cell time, five trips to the Apple Store, 8 total days of repair time, at least 6 hours of my own troubleshooting time invested in this machine, and that it still didn't work. Additionally, I expressed my concern that an "escalated" issue had gone five days and that no one had called me to inform me of progress or where we were. He simply stated that we "had to wait."

Unsatisfied with this answer, I called Apple Customer Relations, who transferred me directly back to AppleCare, where I proceeded to go through the hour-long process of explaining to a new set of folks what was going on. I was eventually handed off to another product specialist, Ryan, who reviewed everything and told me that there was nothing that we could do but wait. At this point, I asked Ryan what I should tell my customers. He said he did not know what to tell me, nor how long it would take engineering to get back to me (in fact he said it could be up to a week). I told Ryan that this was simply unacceptable based on what I had already been through, and that I couldn't hang up the phone with another "we'll get back to you" that never gets followed up on. He asked me what I wanted. I told him I wanted a working machine, or a working replacement.

Ryan put me on hold for about ten minutes and came back to tell me that my unit was "not eligible for replacement." I asked him what else needed to be replaced to warrant a replacement. He told me that he "couldn't make that call," and that I "was told Saturday that engineering had to make the decision" (thanks for the lecture, Ryan). At this point, I asked Ryan if I would speak to his immediate supervisor, to which he responded that he was the highest level of Apple support I could talk to. It was at this point that he also stated that "if this is a business critical machine," that I should have a backup machine, to which I replied "I did order a backup last week, and it arrived at my house dented and scratched from the factory (Case#62378677). I asked him if he could give me a definitive time when I would be contacted and he said "I'm sorry, I cannot promise you when we will get back to you."

Mr. Jobs, this has honestly been a total nightmare for me. I have been trying to tell my clients for four weeks that "my machine is in for service" or "my machine is having trouble," and quite honestly, they don't want to hear it anymore. I can't blame them. I took this machine in four weeks ago, because I knew that the Volvo Ocean Race, a sailing event that I cover here in Annapolis, would be coming to town and I wanted to have a fully operational machine for this once-every-four-year event. In desperation, I purchased a refurbished 15" PowerBook G4, only to have it arrive dented and scratched, requiring my afternoon to box it up, send it back and then phone in the tracking so I could get a replacement sent for the next day.

Everyone I have dealt with at Apple has been courteous, and I have extended them the same candor. What I cannot understand is why I am expected to go through 15 to 20 erase and installs, testing and swapping out RAM and peripheral inputs time after time, to take the machine into my Apple Store five times in four weeks (to be sent home twice - once after the machine kernel panicked in front of a tech), have my machine basically rebuilt (logic board and two new processors) and still be told that I have to continue to suffer with a machine that is virtually useless to me because of all the kernel panicking/ At this point contacting you is a last=ditch effort because I have no more time in my schedule to sit on hold with AppleCare...I've used all the spare time I have, yet I have no resolution.

After everything I have done (and as you've read, I have obliged and jumped through every hoop that's been placed in front of me), I deserve a better answer than "engineering could take up to a week to get back to us/you after I have already waited five days for an initial response to my engineering data submission with no contact from anyone. It's some of the worst (but polite) customer service I have ever dealt with in my life.

I paid good money for my machine, but yet after four weeks I am forced to sit and wait for a call back that I truly fear at this point will never happen. And then what am I left with? I call AppleCare again, and get someone who says "I'll call you back when we hear from engineering." I guess I do not understand why a machine that has a new logic board, two new processors and a PMU that "tested within spec," according to Shane at the Annapolis Store is not "eligible for replacement" when it is till not functioning - and AppleCare has the data logs to confirm it. What else do I have to endure to get the working machine I paid for to make my living?

Many thanks and best regards,

Gary Reich

President, iGary Communications, LLC
*** Admiral Drive ***
Annapolis, MD 21401
Phone: ***-***-1552
Fax: ***-***-1552


P.S. - I fixed all the typos before sending. ;)
 

4God

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2005
2,133
267
My Mac
Very well stated, Gary. I can sense your patience yet disappointment with Apple. I sure hope this gets a positive response.
 

Applespider

macrumors G4
I think it's an excellent letter in terms of not ranting but can I suggest an executive summary at the top? Even along the lines of 'I'm writing about my top of the range G5 PowerMac which I've been attempting to have repaired for the past 8 weeks but which is still kernal panicking on a daily basis despite having most of its innards replaced and the OS multiple times."
 

iGary

Guest
Original poster
May 26, 2004
19,580
7
Randy's House
Applespider said:
I think it's an excellent letter in terms of not ranting but can I suggest an executive summary at the top? Even along the lines of 'I'm writing about my top of the range G5 PowerMac which I've been attempting to have repaired for the past 8 weeks but which is still kernal panicking on a daily basis despite having most of its innards replaced and the OS multiple times."

Thanks, Applespider - you are right, but I already sent it. I doubt anything quick will come about because of it, but what do I have to lose at this point?

Not a lot. :eek:
 

QCassidy352

macrumors G5
Mar 20, 2003
12,066
6,107
Bay Area
that was a very well written letter. I don't know if SJ ever personally gets involved, but if you have any hope, that would be the letter to get it done.

I'd be beside myself with fury if this was happening to a machine that I needed for work.
 
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