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Another list - if it goes on and on, can you post the full list please?
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Sorry, but actual reliability data based on far larger samples trumps your single piece of anecdotal evidence.

Does the term 'negativity bias' mean anything to you?
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On this point, I must concede that my just replaced iMac had an issue with the display. Sort of grey watermark type thing - was a bit weird as it would move slightly.

Point is, I contacted Apple and even though it was over a year out of warranty they agreed to cover the cost of having the display replaced. And all I needed to to was take it to a local authorised Apple dealer in my town, and it was done in about three days.

And, to be fair, I did have a problem with an MBP from 2008 - think it was down to some dodgy nVidia graphics cards at the time. They replaced the logic board and the display under warranty, but the new display had a single vertical line of faulty pixels. Took it back again, and they replaced it with a brand new machine - which by that time was the new unibody MBP.

Pretty good customer service in both cases that I wouldn't be that confident of getting from many other companies.

And yes, I know its only anecdotal - maybe its a coincidence that Apple tends to come out so highly rates in customer satisfaction figures.

[doublepost=1457777845][/doublepost]

Just a few questions on that.

1. Who is "we"?

2. How much do standalone 5K displays with a comparable spec to the iMac display typically cost?

3. You mention "limitations" - what sorts of things can't you do on your iMac that you need, or would like, to do?
So much for the idea that they are more reliable....maybe back before 2011 you would have been correct, but these days, I just don't buy it at all. I've owned many macs, both pre-2011 and post-2011, and there is a serious reliability issue since they switched to using lead-free solder.

The problem isn't necessarily the solder, it's the thermal characteristics. Lead free solder melts slightly at lower temps than normal solder. Apple should have included this in their thermal calculations but for several years it doesn't seem like they did. This is why you have all these GPU recalls the last few years, both in MacBooks and in iMacs.

Apple pretty much uses the same old components that everyone else uses these days. This notion that these components somehow are more reliable when you slap a fruit logo on it seems mystifying to me.

Here's a short list for you.

2011-2013 MacBook Pro's

27" iMacs with 6970M's

2009-2012 1TB iMacs

3TB iMacs

27" iMac display issues

I don't have some unrealistic expectation that these products should never fail under any circumstances at any time. But Apple often doesn't have this wonderful customer service you talk about. The iPhone 4S has serious issues with Wi-Fi, because of (again) bad soldering. They've STILL never come out with a repair program even though it was such a widespread issue. Just google it: greyed out wifi on 4S.

The first time my MacBook died I thought it was just bad luck and paid the $500 for the logic board replacement. The second time was a mystery. The third time it happened I knew there was an issue. Apple MUST have known long before they actually did the replacement program. Just goes to show you Apple will do anything it can to screw people over. They're not better than Dell or HP, it really is just marketing.
 
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I agree with you on the 5400 RPM drives. At what the iMac's entry price is they should at least be fusion now (especially since the entry level fusion drives are now 28gb and probably a $15 part).

I also wish there were more options for video cards. I also wish the 21.5 models had easy user accessible/upgradable memory. I also wish there was a wireless FULL keyboard option.

However the all around bundle of the iMac IMO is still a great value. All the screens are top notch and the new 4K and 5K are fantastic and a good bargain. You have to consider that when building your own.
 
And I suppose that's the issue for me. I don't like to be treated like a 'good little consumer', and I don't have any problem with people choosing to use imacs. But I'd like a choice, and at the minute there isn't one that suits me. Yes, I play a few games. Elite: Dangerous is great example of when things go wrong. Played quite nicely on my two cMP, then an expansion was released which will not run on mac os x. So I now have to run it on bootcamp on Windows 7 pro on my 2008 mac pro. If I had any hair, I might pull some out.

Ah well, nevermind.

What makes you think Apple are treating you like that? You think they've decided to focus on you, but are failing you miserably?

Here's a thought - it could just be that, predominantly, they don't happen to cater for you.

Maybe one day they'll make a more 'pro' computer. Heck, they could call it a Mac Pro or something.
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I appreciate your response. Let's also consider what exactly does Apple offer in the way of computers. Other than the anemic if not castrated Mac Mini, the entire line up for typical users are indeed, iMacs. Thus, it is quite reasonable to compare it to the "tower" counterpart and even models of computers that follow the iMac all-in-one style. The iMac "is" the main offering from Apple.

We agree, I am not a "typical" user but do a great deal of things typical to an average user plus other more advanced work. Again, your response is well received and appreciated.
[doublepost=1457806281][/doublepost]

For item one - that is a collective "we." I'll dismiss this one as you can understand what is implied.

For item two - Dell's offering can be found under 2000 dollars, has full swivel, swing, and horizontal rotation as well as either matches or in a few tests surpasses the iMac on various tests related to the things I do such as 100 percent adobe calibration. I give props to the iMac for being slightly brighter. If you want to gain the items listed above for the iMac, you would need to invest in a mount/arm and add those dollars and more real estate is required on the desk or wall.

For item three - well covered and virtually dismissed and these are big points - upgrade-ability beyond RAM. Pretty much what you buy is the way it will stand until retired or broken. I absolutely want ability to easily access and upgrade storage, switch out video or have more than one type of video card, no way to add cards such as audio so that leaves everything "outside" the "thin" footprint and again, one can list other options of want/need based on what one intends to use the computer for on a daily or some time basis.

Please allow me to say that time and experience doesn't define an "expert" and we see here both objective and subjective responses. I happen to form much of my subjective on my experiences that include objective contrast and compare for MY needs and also dealing with other users on a personal and professional level. - Having come from somewhat early PC days (both Tandy and IBM) on up the line, I have seen lots of things come and go. The two things I admired early on about Apple (though I remained in the DOS then Windows camp) were the amazing RISC chip and the early Laserwriter. At that time, both were truly marvels. My switch to Apple was driven by three things - Vista 'betaware' from Microsoft had me agitated enough to jump ship, Apple having gone to the Intel chip gave me familiarity and admittedly a touch of excitement delving into the world of Apple.

I have had really fantastic experiences with Apple and many disappointments. Over time, I realized that though I am still a fan of OSX, the hardware was going in a direction that less suited my needs and now I have stripped it down to just a couple of computers and either sold or gave away older models. I fully admit my ideal iMac would have the ability to do upgrades (even if they were semi-proprietary).

Point one - it obviously isn't the collective 'we', as the collective 'we' would typically refer to everyone. But clearly this isn't an issue for everyone - its an issue specifically for a minority of people who either need the most powerful computer they can get for a specific, but fairly small, number of CU intensive tasks.

Point two - if the Dell display's cost roughly the same as the iMac, but without the computer, then its difficult to argue that the iMac is overpriced. I'm no expert, but I can'y imagine there's that much difference in quality between the Dell and the current iMac with the improved colour gamut.

Point three - I meant what sorts of things would you want to be able to use the computer for, that you feel are unable to do with an iMac? Upgradability is something else.

As you say at the end - a computer is more about the needs of the individual - I didn't really see the point of the OP weighing in initially about how the iMac, almost objectively, was an awful buying choice.

Clearly for many its a fantastic computer, and considering the cost of standalone 5K displays, fairly reasonably priced for what you do get.
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So much for the idea that they are more reliable....maybe back before 2011 you would have been correct, but these days, I just don't buy it at all. I've owned many macs, both pre-2011 and post-2011, and there is a serious reliability issue since they switched to using lead-free solder.

The problem isn't necessarily the solder, it's the thermal characteristics. Lead free solder melts slightly at lower temps than normal solder. Apple should have included this in their thermal calculations but for several years it doesn't seem like they did. This is why you have all these GPU recalls the last few years, both in MacBooks and in iMacs.

Apple pretty much uses the same old components that everyone else uses these days. This notion that these components somehow are more reliable when you slap a fruit logo on it seems mystifying to me.

Here's a short list for you.

2011-2013 MacBook Pro's

27" iMacs with 6970M's

2009-2012 1TB iMacs

3TB iMacs

27" iMac display issues

I don't have some unrealistic expectation that these products should never fail under any circumstances at any time. But Apple often doesn't have this wonderful customer service you talk about. The iPhone 4S has serious issues with Wi-Fi, because of (again) bad soldering. They've STILL never come out with a repair program even though it was such a widespread issue. Just google it: greyed out wifi on 4S.

The first time my MacBook died I thought it was just bad luck and paid the $500 for the logic board replacement. The second time was a mystery. The third time it happened I knew there was an issue. Apple MUST have known long before they actually did the replacement program. Just goes to show you Apple will do anything it can to screw people over. They're not better than Dell or HP, it really is just marketing.

My examples were purely anecdotal. People with all makes of pretty much all consumer electronics will have issues like the ones I mentioned.

I tend to place more value on what a company does to rectify a problem, than the fact that there has been a problem in the first place. Despite your anecdotal evidence, or mine, fact is that Apple does pretty well on things like reliability.

I could Google it, but I'd probably run into that whole negativity bias thing.

Purely anecdotal again, but around the same time I had the problem with the MBP, a friend had problems with e Dell laptop, but was having an absolute nightmare trying to get anything out of their CS.

What would happen if I Googled something like 'poor Dell customer service' or 'unreliable Dell laptops'?

Actually, I just did the second one, and one of the first results is a story about Apple laptops being the most reliable.

This isn't a pissing contest though - my point is just that a few anecdotal example taken without reference or comparison to anything else are meaningless.
 
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I agree with everything you say here however I still don't feel its a very fair to compare an iMac to anything other than another all-in-one regardless of how many they sell.

Lets look at this the opposite direction. If you were buying a laptop would you include an iMac into your list of potential laptops to buy?

The reason I do believe iMacs are a fair comparison because it pretty much is the only game in town for a typical computer user to purchase if they wish to have an Apple computer (other than the Mac Mini). If Apple offered a "box" computer in the same venue as the iMac, then it might be a different story. Neither the Mac Mini nor the Mac (mini)Pro are in the same category. As for your question, I wouldn't put the iMac in the "mobile computer" category. What I would do is put the iMac in the desktop category of computers that use laptop type guts rather than full blown hardware (this is not at any level saying laptop guts are not a great achievement on their own).
 
So do you also believe that it would be fair to compare a Ford with a Ferrari, because the cars that Ferrari make are the only game in town for a typical car user to purchase if they wish to have an Ferrari?

By all means put them in that category if you must - just don't try to argue they are overpriced in comparison, unless we're ignoring the elephant in the room, i.e. the 5K display.
 
So do you also believe that it would be fair to compare a Ford with a Ferrari, because the cars that Ferrari make are the only game in town for a typical car user to purchase if they wish to have an Ferrari?

By all means put them in that category if you must - just don't try to argue they are overpriced in comparison, unless we're ignoring the elephant in the room, i.e. the 5K display.

Yes absolutely and if I may, you are missing the point entirely. If you go shop for a family car, you have certain expectations. Thus, with all makers you may only find a subset that fulfills your needs such as number of seats, cost etc. With this in mind, you might to to a Ferarri shop and contrast and compare. Ferarri you find doesn't quite meet your needs simply on cost alone or perhaps not enough seating or whatever. This is there only offering for a car. So in short, you are comparing cars to cars and Ferarri loses by its own offering or limitations.
 
Yes absolutely and if I may, you are missing the point entirely. If you go shop for a family car, you have certain expectations. Thus, with all makers you may only find a subset that fulfills your needs such as number of seats, cost etc. With this in mind, you might to to a Ferarri shop and contrast and compare. Ferarri you find doesn't quite meet your needs simply on cost alone or perhaps not enough seating or whatever. This is there only offering for a car. So in short, you are comparing cars to cars and Ferarri loses by its own offering or limitations.

So far so good - but the whole argument subsequently falls down with the idea that Ferraris are overpriced simply because Fords are cheaper.
 
Video card?

I realize this might come as a bit of a shock to you, but I wasn't discussing monitors. I'm discussing the computer part of the computer. I could have hooked up whatever monitor I liked to this thing and it wouldn't change the basic facts that even the highest end iMac is pretty mediocre when it comes to performance.

Sure, you have a nice pretty 5k display to use Facebook with, but good luck doing anything more with that awful GPU. For such an expensive machine, topping out at an R9 M395x is ridiculous.

Then I'd be stuck with Windows 10 with all the 'fun' that comes with the territory or playing 'catch up' every time Apple releases a new update resulting in the hackintosh crapping itself. I purchased an iMac 5K not for raw power but because I want OS X, I don't want the drama and more importantly it was and still is the most balanced machine for what I need to accomplish. I'm dumb founded as to what you're trying to achieve by posting such obvious flamebait to the iMac forum - it dumb founds me even more that, after flagging your post as flamebait, moderators have decided that what this forum needs is a good old platform flame war because god knows we couldn't possibly have a forum with constructive discussion and people helping each other.
 
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The problem isn't necessarily the solder, it's the thermal characteristics. Lead free solder melts slightly at lower temps than normal solder. Apple should have included this in their thermal calculations but for several years it doesn't seem like they did. This is why you have all these GPU recalls the last few years, both in MacBooks and in iMacs.

Lead free solder has a higher melting point than leaded solder and Apple had no choice but to start using it otherwise they wouldn't have been able to sell their products in Europe... https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/soldering/lead-free-vs.-leaded-solder
 
What is with apple's terrible specs in nearly every product category these days? Truly horrendous. I have not seen such an awful lineup from Apple in a long time.

Seriously Apple, 5400 RAM hard drives are the default on iMacs??? Are we still living in the year 2005 or what?

And worst of all: graphics. The Intel Iris pro is impressive for an integrated GPU....but it's still integrated! Even the most mediocre cards from Nvidia will leave it in the dust. Seriously Apple, it's about time to start offering some real GPU options again, because EVERY video card you offer is awful. Even their highest end AMD cards are crushed by Nvidia's latest. You can't even get a MID RANGE card in an iMac for less than $2,300. That's absolutely pathetic. Apple, come on, please catch up with the rest of the world and at least give us an option to have a decent Nvidia card in the iMac or Mac Pro, because your current lineup is God awful.

The Hackintosh I built for less than $2000 absolutely DESTROYS the highest end iMac in EVERY single way. It has not one, but TWO GTX 970's. If only Apple would actually build and sell a machine with half way decent specs I wouldn't have to go to such great lengths to get a decent machine.

I will never understand why Apple felt the need to make the iMac so thin. It's a desktop machine, no one is lugging around the 27" iMac as a portable device. There's literally zero reason to use laptop parts when you could be using highly superior desktop components at a lower cost to boot.


I think that our boy here is trying to graduate from Troll Academy. I mean, really? I wonder, does it makes you feel better?
 
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Then I'd be stuck with Windows 10 with all the 'fun' that comes with the territory or playing 'catch up' every time Apple releases a new update resulting in the hackintosh crapping itself. I purchased an iMac 5K not for raw power but because I want OS X, I don't want the drama and more importantly it was and still is the most balanced machine for what I need to accomplish. I'm dumb founded as to what you're trying to achieve by posting such obvious flamebait to the iMac forum - it dumb founds me even more that, after flagging your post as flamebait, moderators have decided that what this forum needs is a good old platform flame war because god knows we couldn't possibly have a forum with constructive discussion and people helping each other.

moderation is sporadic and asleep at the wheel here, not sure what they have been instructed but the heads of the site need to tell them otherwise.

win10 is garbage until all that telemetry crap is removed, they still need to fix many things with the OS but can;t because corps move at a snail's pace which always hinders them. MS is lazy anyways and with 90% monopoly they don't care. It's a free future with ads (thanks google :rolleyes:) then it's either osx or linux if I pick another. most can't leave windows though because they don;t have the balls to, or they need to play teh gamezzzz.

There's still the existing malware issue should have been addressed years ago. Sure you see an occasional osx malware that is easy to avoid and easy to remove on occasion but windows, well they stopped counting at this point. Yay it's patch Tuesday!! more crap after more crap. That OS should not need that much patching, period. It's sloppy. cue the excuses for poor wittle microsoft... awwww Also the near forced upgrades .. if you can call it that, to windows ads.. i mean 10, is lawsuit worthy. sickening behavior from the same company that tried the insane xbox one drm policies.

I'd love civil discussion myself, but we aren't getting that on the net anywhere, mostly unhappy people venting and trolling, so I just troll back at this point.
 
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Lead free solder has a higher melting point than leaded solder and Apple had no choice but to start using it otherwise they wouldn't have been able to sell their products in Europe... https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/soldering/lead-free-vs.-leaded-solder
You are technically correct, lead free solder does have a higher melting point (with most alloys, in any case).

But my point still remains that lead-free solder is a much, much worse choice. There are several problems with it, but the biggest problem is the Kirkendall effect. This affects lead-free solder much, much worse than leaded solder. It causes cracks and fractures to develop on the metal-solder contacts after continued heat-cool-heat-cool cycles...which is exactly what happens after using a device long enough.

Even worse, lead-free solder has a significantly higher young's modulus, meaning that when it is deformed (due to thermal effects) it is much more brittle and likely to develop fractures. But worst of all: tin whiskers tend to develop, causing electrical shorts and other damaging effects.

It would have been OK if Apple had used Pb-free solder in the EU and used Pb solder everywhere else. But to save money they decided to go Pb-free everywhere.

So it's obvious why Apple products are less reliable than they used to be. It's not an opinion, it's a well established fact. I can understand the environmental impacts of lead and Apple wanting to use a lead-free solder. But these problems can be largely alleviated with smart engineering, which Apple hasn't really done. So Apple could have done several things:

1. Apple could significantly extend the warranty on all Pb-free-solder devices when an electrical issue is detected without any physical damage. They haven't done this because obviously they want to pay for as few repairs as possible, even if it means screwing over lots of customers that have treated the laptops/phones well and haven't caused the damage. Apple cheaps out a lot. These stories of nice customer service are true....until they're not.

2. Apple could switch back to Pb solder everywhere but the EU. Less environmentally friendly but makes their equipment much more reliable.

3. Use smart engineering and larger quantities of solder to greatly reduce the likelihood of tin whiskers and the Kirkendall effect.

Apple hasn't done any of these things, so I really do blame them completely for these issues. Anyone who says Apple products are the most reliable on the market just isn't doing their research and has likely listened to way too much Apple advertising. The saying is true: They just don't build 'em like they used to.
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My examples were purely anecdotal. People with all makes of pretty much all consumer electronics will have issues like the ones I mentioned.

I tend to place more value on what a company does to rectify a problem, than the fact that there has been a problem in the first place. Despite your anecdotal evidence, or mine, fact is that Apple does pretty well on things like reliability.

I could Google it, but I'd probably run into that whole negativity bias thing.

Purely anecdotal again, but around the same time I had the problem with the MBP, a friend had problems with e Dell laptop, but was having an absolute nightmare trying to get anything out of their CS.

What would happen if I Googled something like 'poor Dell customer service' or 'unreliable Dell laptops'?

Actually, I just did the second one, and one of the first results is a story about Apple laptops being the most reliable.

This isn't a pissing contest though - my point is just that a few anecdotal example taken without reference or comparison to anything else are meaningless.
The thing is, my examples aren't anecdotal at all. Just google 'Greyed out wifi' and you will see thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of cases of iPhone 4S users having wifi suddenly stop working.

Apple has never remedied this problem. They've never offered a replacement program, nothing. That's absolutely wrong. If Apple actually cared about their customers, and not just their customers wallets, they would have done something about this years ago.

Same thing with the 2011-2013 MacBook GPU problem. This problem was also caused by lead-free soldering. For a very long time Apple flat out refused to pay for the repairs until it became publicly undeniable that this was such a widespread problem. Apple had this data long before the general public did, but they didn't do anything about it until the press got wind of it.

So what do I see? I see Apple doing as few replacement/recall programs as they possibly can, all so that they can save as much money as possible. That's exactly what Dell, HP, etc. all do. So no, I don't believe for one second that Apple is somehow superior to everyone else in the industry, because in my opinion, they're every bit as bad.
 
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AxoNeuron,

Don't care for the iMac then don't get one. I am extremely happy with mine for audio production and don't need the video component. It does exactly what I need and I don't have time for games.

But either way, all of your discussion and tearing down of the iMac is foolishness. The only reason I can tell you would come here and try to tear apart a machine that a lot of folks here like is:

A) Yoo feel some need to make yourself superior to others through your choices.

Or

B) You are a troll.

Just keepin' it real, have a nice day.
 
So far so good - but the whole argument subsequently falls down with the idea that Ferraris are overpriced simply because Fords are cheaper.

No it really does not. Look at this as a problem solving exercise where Ford offers various models that fit the need and Ferraris offer a smaller range of offerings that does not. Both are selling cars and yet one carries a typical utility car. There really isn't much more to think about here. The names of the brands don't matter but the offering. Again, iMacs ARE Apple's main computer line to the masses and they simply offer one all-in-one with two models that each have their BTO.
 
AxoNeuron,

Don't care for the iMac then don't get one. I am extremely happy with mine for audio production and don't need the video component. It does exactly what I need and I don't have time for games.

But either way, all of your discussion and tearing down of the iMac is foolishness. The only reason I can tell you would come here and try to tear apart a machine that a lot of folks here like is:

A) Yoo feel some need to make yourself superior to others through your choices.

Or

B) You are a troll.

Just keepin' it real, have a nice day.
If this were something minor, like not having some super high end ECC memory option I wouldn't complain. Obviously Apple doesn't hand craft every machine to fit every users needs. But this isn't some super rare thing we're talking about. It's video. On a machine with such a high resolution display, a desktop machine, there's just no reason Apple shouldn't at least offer the OPTION to get a good video card. But they don't.

A desktop machine, with a 4K display...without even the option of a real video card? That's ridiculous. You're stuck with an Iris Pro on the 21" iMac, which is like a video card from 2012.

Some people, Apple koolaid drinkers especially, seem to be under the mistaken impression that only video gamers need video cards. They don't seem to realize there are so many professionals out there who rely on Apple machines for work. These are perfectly valid complaints regardless of whether or not you agree. Obviously since you're an audio engineer you don't really use video, but that doesn't mean no one else doesn't either. So please, you can disagree with me on a technical level, but I'm not going to accept this common idea that if anyone criticizes the Dear Leader they are automatically wrong.
 
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Wtf 5 pages for this?
Its easy the imac is the best all in one
The imac can last for 5 years and thats the life time for that the industry guarantee you
 
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Wtf 5 pages for this?
Its easy the imac is the best all in one
The imac can last for 5 years and thats the life time for that the industry guarantee you
3c36c7f.jpg
 
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So like I said, don't buy one. After that you are just trolling.

Don't feed the troll.
Is everyone who happens to mention facts that disagree with your opinions instantly labelled a troll? :rolleyes:

Yeah...

By the way, even Oculus Rift isn't gonna support OS X because Apple's entire product line is universally awful when it comes to graphics. Maybe it's not just us crazy trolls who are unhappy about this situation.
 
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