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senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
How do you define "AAA-capable computers sold yearly 3 years from now."?
Read the original post. My definition is in it.

I define it as MSRP starting at $999 & more. Can $100 PCs run AAA games?
That's a poor way of defining an AAA-capable computer. Many laptops that sell for $1,000 do not contain a dedicated GPU. On Windows laptops, a dedicated GPU is almost given for AAA games since AMD and Intel iGPUs are so weak.
 

Adarna

Suspended
Jan 1, 2015
685
429
Read the original post. My definition is in it.


That's a poor way of defining an AAA-capable computer. Many laptops that sell for $1,000 do not contain a dedicated GPU. On Windows laptops, a dedicated GPU is almost given for AAA games since AMD and Intel iGPUs are so weak.
You're spending too much time trying to impose your point of view on something that may not even occur.

Revisit your ideas by 2023 and debate then.
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
You're spending too much time trying to impose your point of view on something that may not even occur.

Revisit your ideas by 2023 and debate then.
What? That's silly. You asked me a question, I answered. Now you're butt hurt.

Just read the original post. It would be a better debate if you did. But it seems like you went straight to providing your opinions without read it first.
 

Adarna

Suspended
Jan 1, 2015
685
429
What? That's silly. You asked me a question, I answered. Now you're butt hurt.

Just read the original post. It would be a better debate if you did. But it seems like you went straight to providing your opinions without read it first.
I read your manifesto.

I did not want to point out that 2020 global shipping figures of Macs was ~22.5m.

There are other points I'd wanted to ask for reference to but it over extends a fun thought experiment to something unpleasant.

I do hope your ideas come to fruition but yours is a best case scenario.

What I am sure of though is that <80% of all globally shipped laptops/desktops/workstations by 2023-2025 will be SoC whether it be ARM or x86.

People who prefer modularized PCs will experience hikes in parts prices due to lower volume of those specific SKUs.

When Windows 11 on ARM is equivalent to Windows 11 on x86 then expect average selling price of PCs to drop <$632..

I cannot wait for ThinkPad E14 with ARM to sell for ~$400. Would be awesome to deploy dozens of them at work
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
I did not want to point out that 2020 global shipping figures of Macs was ~22.5m.
The source I used was IDC. IDC estimated gaming only computers. This Gartner report estimated all computers.
What I am sure of though is that <80% of all globally shipped laptops/desktops/workstations by 2023-2025 will be SoC whether it be ARM or x86.
What does this have anything to do with AAA-capable computers?
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,438
2,665
OBX
Mac users are not tolerant with crap.

For crap buy a <$999 PC.
You were looking for what $100 PCs can play AAA games at Ultra Settings with at least 60FPS. Which is a fundamentally different question than can $100 PC's play AAA games. The answer to the former is none, the latter is most of them. iGPU's in PC land are not great but they, in a lot of cases, can play AAA games. You suffer for performance though, which was the point of the YT vid.
 

Adarna

Suspended
Jan 1, 2015
685
429
The source I used was IDC. IDC estimated gaming only computers. This Gartner report estimated all computers.

What does this have anything to do with AAA-capable computers?
Apple does not market Mas primarily for gaming. So the IDC figure has little relevance.

Price will impact AAA-capable computers.
 

MysticCow

macrumors 68000
May 27, 2013
1,564
1,760
Sounds like the rabbit hole of that dude who kept insisting Halo would have made Macs a gamer's computer.

o_O too much Reality Distortion Field o_O

If that was me, I've been misquoted. Halo originally began as a Mac-only game before the company was bought and Halo became the star of the XBox. That's what I know. Under no circumstances would that have made Macs "instant gaming rigs," but it would have made people jump for a second...and then go right back into DirectX coding because it's ridiculously easy compared to XCode.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,438
2,665
OBX
What is there to be gained by releasing on a platform with a different interface?

You either rework the app. Or put out a shoddy product
Seems like that question could work in either direction. Why hasn't Larian Games done a version of Balurs Gate 3 for iPad? Clearly they have the interface working for DOS:2 and BG3 uses the same engine...
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
What is there to be gained by releasing on a platform with a different interface?

You either rework the app. Or put out a shoddy product
Money.

And no, you don't have to rework the app if it's single touch as I said above, single touch is great with a mouse or trackpad. If it's multi touch, that I would understand. (and I hate multitouch gestures :)
 

Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
1,143
1,608
Money.

And no, you don't have to rework the app if it's single touch as I said above, single touch is great with a mouse or trackpad. If it's multi touch, that I would understand. (and I hate multitouch gestures :)
but a touch focussed interface isn’t necessarily great with a mouse pointer. Windows 8 tile interface is my example. Decent UX with touch. Terrible with a mouse. If a developer is willing to take the easy option and just Publish with no care for the UX that says a lot about the developers.

In terms of money, what money? They’ll already have the iOS app. They’re not buying twice.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
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but a touch focused interface isn’t necessarily great with a mouse pointer. Windows 8 tile interface is my example. Decent UX with touch. Terrible with a mouse. If a developer is willing to take the easy option and just Publish with no care for the UX that says a lot about the developers.
A mouse is a perfectly acceptable alternate for single touch to me -- never had a problem with it. It also says a lot about the developer when they ignore someone that wants to use their app, and even pay for it.
In terms of money, what money? They’ll already have the iOS app. They’re not buying twice.
Who says I wouldn't? If it's something I want and I want it on my Mac, i'll pay it, even if you make it condition to pay for using it on the Mac, I'd pay it.
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
Happier customers -- at least me, especially since it's a selling point for them.


I actually disagree it's easier to boot up and play a game on my iPhone/iPad being easier than doing it on my Mac. The one game app that I've played that does allow a Mac to run it is quicker to load and just as easy to play with a mouse vs. touch input.


A mouse works just as good as single touch input, and that's what most apps use. Multi-touch would be a problem, but I have no multitouch apps on my iPhone.


Maybe not this time around, but there's a good saying about the consequences for customers, once bitten twice shy.


The iPhone isn't my preferred platform for sitting and playing light games, a WindowsPC, or one of my Mac's are. I don't do AAA games at all on any Apple platform. (or Windows for that matter) Input is a problem there too, and much more of one than single touch!


Me! (But not just games, other apps as well)
Forgive me for saying this, but I don’t think that your view is typical. A lot of the sentiments I’ve seen have been lamenting the lack of blockbuster releases for Mac over not being able to run iOS apps (and I recall, that announcement was met with quite a lot of derision).

but a touch focussed interface isn’t necessarily great with a mouse pointer. Windows 8 tile interface is my example. Decent UX with touch. Terrible with a mouse. If a developer is willing to take the easy option and just Publish with no care for the UX that says a lot about the developers.

In terms of money, what money? They’ll already have the iOS app. They’re not buying twice.
In terms of Windows 8 (we got a free Dell tablet with it installed) what made it worse was once you got past the infamous start Menu replacement it was a standard desktop interface, completely unsuited to touch controls. And let me tell you the touch input was NOT accurate enough for the small ui.
 

Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
1,143
1,608
A mouse is a perfectly acceptable alternate for single touch to me -- never had a problem with it. It also says a lot about the developer when they ignore someone that wants to use their app, and even pay for it.

Who says I wouldn't? If it's something I want and I want it on my Mac, i'll pay it, even if you make it condition to pay for using it on the Mac, I'd pay it.
By what mechanism can you buy an app twice from the App Store on the same account?

To do this, you’d have to have a separate macOS app at which point were no longer discussing cross platform iOS apps on M1.

The vast majority of apps (conjecture with no source) are not produced by large development teams. A majority are individuals, small businesses and hobbyists.

I don’t make enough money from apps to have it as my job, and never will. A developer such as myself may only want to produce quality work. But has neither time nor inclination to support additional platforms
 

Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
1,143
1,608
Forgive me for saying this, but I don’t think that your view is typical. A lot of the sentiments I’ve seen have been lamenting the lack of blockbuster releases for Mac over not being able to run iOS apps (and I recall, that announcement was met with quite a lot of derision).


In terms of Windows 8 (we got a free Dell tablet with it installed) what made it worse was once you got past the infamous start Menu replacement it was a standard desktop interface, completely unsuited to touch controls. And let me tell you the touch input was NOT accurate enough for the small ui.
Windows 8 was a disaster in every way. It was just the first famous example I thought of
 

MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,178
7,203
The M2, based on rumours should have the gpu even better...The M2 should be around 60-70% of the Current M1 Pro 16 gpu cores...so i guess, if the dev agrees..the hardware will be there since 2022-2023
So a lot of macs should be able to run AAA metal games at impressive details
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
Forgive me for saying this, but I don’t think that your view is typical.
It probably isn't. :) After all, I'm a developer too and that colors my attitude.

That said, I know I'm not unique either, and some money is better than no money.

A lot of the sentiments I’ve seen have been lamenting the lack of blockbuster releases for Mac over not being able to run iOS apps (and I recall, that announcement was met with quite a lot of derision).
What can I say, it was a big selling point for me, and a huge disappointment eventually.

In terms of Windows 8 (we got a free Dell tablet with it installed) what made it worse was once you got past the infamous start Menu replacement it was a standard desktop interface, completely unsuited to touch controls. And let me tell you the touch input was NOT accurate enough for the small ui.
That way I agree with you, touch is not a decent replacement for mouse, especially with how Microsoft did with Windows 8. (Windows 8 sucked UI-wise!)
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,126
2,706
The issue is that while yes, it will run. The truth is that the app is designed for a touch interface. Just because they “can run” it doesn’t mean it will look good and give a good user experience on both laptop and desktop.
And that's the point. How much time and effort is needed to "port" iOS games with custom gesture recognizers to macOS? Sure it depends on the game, but...
  • those buying iOS games do this primarily for iOS
  • those who want to play it on macOS, probably already have it for iOS
  • the number of people buying iOS game titles to play only on macOS is probably close to zero.
Which brings me back to the question I already asked... if developers can't double dip financially (iOS and an iOS version that runs on macOS), why bother to make changes? "Tick a box", sure (same concept as Unity/UE). But adjusting controls for macOS if there's no money in it... nope (same concept small scale as porting Win to macOS).
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
By what mechanism can you buy an app twice from the App Store on the same account?
That I don't know for sure, maybe rename it and say it's the Mac compatible version of ...
To do this, you’d have to have a separate macOS app at which point were no longer discussing cross platform iOS apps on M1.
I think renaming would work, but you should make a suggestion to Apple about it, you might be surprised that they'd want to help it along, since they did the work to make iOS apps work under MacOS.
 

januarydrive7

macrumors 6502a
Oct 23, 2020
537
578
That I don't know for sure, maybe rename it and say it's the Mac compatible version of ...

I think renaming would work, but you should make a suggestion to Apple about it, you might be surprised that they'd want to help it along, since they did the work to make iOS apps work under MacOS.
I think that's just the issue this dev is talking about, though --- now it's a matter of supporting a macOS version for those who are not ok with an interface that is less than ideal outside of touch input. This now is no longer just "rename and tick the checkbox" -- this is "rename, tick the checkbox, and either rework the UX, or suffer poor reviews (hit to reputation!) from users expecting a 'Mac compatible' version."
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
I think that's just the issue this dev is talking about, though --- now it's a matter of supporting a macOS version for those who are not ok with an interface that is less than ideal outside of touch input. This now is no longer just "rename and tick the checkbox" -- this is "rename, tick the checkbox, and either rework the UX, or suffer poor reviews (hit to reputation!) from users expecting a 'Mac compatible' version."
Like I said before, we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

falainber

macrumors 68040
Mar 16, 2016
3,539
4,136
Wild West
Tldr: Within 3 years, basic math suggests Macs will be 50% of all computers sold yearly capable of playing AAA games.

I am not sure your math is any good. But regardless, we may end up with "Macs will be 50% of all computers sold yearly capable of playing AAA games" with no AAA games to run on them.

Edit: the major flaw in your "math" is that you do not take into account the fact that computing power required for AAA games is changes and the AAA game developers use PC (not Mac) progress to calibrate their games.
 
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