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senttoschool

macrumors 68030
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Nov 2, 2017
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They are using upscaling there (metalFX). It's not apples to apples.
Most people play with some sort of upsampling whether AMD's FSR or Nvidia's DLSS. They work great. I don't see why anyone would play with them off unless they hit their target FPS without them.

The game looks great in MetalFX and has playable FPS with medium - high settings.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
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Most people play with some sort of upsampling whether AMD's FSR or Nvidia's DLSS. They work great. I don't see why anyone would play with them off unless they hit their target FPS without them.

The game looks great in MetalFX and has playable FPS with medium - high settings.
You think people turn that stuff on if it is off by default?
 
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salamanderjuice

macrumors 6502a
Feb 28, 2020
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Most people play with some sort of upsampling whether AMD's FSR or Nvidia's DLSS. They work great. I don't see why anyone would play with them off unless they hit their target FPS without them.

The game looks great in MetalFX and has playable FPS with medium - high settings.
It's not really 1280p with upscaling on is it though?

Lots of people play with it off too because it causes artifacts.
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
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MetalFX downscaling defeats the purpose of the graphics in horror graphics adventure since quality is degraded and blurred out. You can disable MetalFX downscaling but fps drops even further.

MetalFX
1687030710177.png


Xbox Series X
1687030759812.png
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
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M3gatron

Suspended
Sep 2, 2019
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M1 Air. Resident Evil Village. 1280p (so higher than 1080p). Medium to high mode (higher than Balanced). Runs at 28fps - 45fps.
It's still using upscaling so native resolution is closer to 720p. Rezident Evil its not hard to run if you lower the settings, the Windows version has even more advanced graphical settings than MacOS for example.
But here's the problem, to you every single ARM Mac is "AAA gaming capable", even the 8gb/256gb configurations(which are also the most popular ones of all the mac's being sold)and you compare that with sales of Gaming PCs or laptops, so computers designed for gaming specifically. This while the simple truth is that an M1 is well below even a 7 year old Gaming PC not to mention systems sold in the last 3 years.
I said it in the past and I will say it again, when I bought my laptop it was sitting right next to the M1 Air and both were the same price, but my laptop has 16GB RAM, 1Tb storage, a 5800H and an RTX 3050. Now Asus didn't even promote this laptop as a gaming laptop, all the marketing was saying that it's a "creator's laptop", that it has a great OLED screen with validated picture accuracy, with Nvidia Studio drivers etc. Would you say my laptop is a better gaming computer even if it's not sold for this category? And what does this say about your logic that 50% of the AAA gaming capable computers sold in 1 years are Mac's?
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
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Clearly being able to read text on items is for PCMR. Everyone else doesn’t really need to be able to do that…

Surprised you believe that nonsense or perhaps you lack experience with these type of games. There's a puzzle solving factor that rely on visual cues so graphics detail is important. It's the difference between being able to spot them across the room vs having to get up close. Even more so with Layers of Fear where notes, letters, paintings, etc. are littered all over the game.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,510
2,462
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Clearly being able to read text on items is for PCMR. Everyone else doesn’t really need to be able to do that…

Here are the two images in full for better comparison and context. It's so easy to just zoom in on irrelevant details while the player actually is focusing on the more important things like the story, dialog and action. Not even in real life someone can read a label on a wine bottle across the room. You have to pick the bottle up and read it closely but it's easy to complain when you just can zoom in and crop a small part of an image like that.

It was the same reasoning when a small portion of a construction in the far distance in Batman Arkham City was cropped and zoomed in to prove a similar point when no one actually would focus on such things in gameplay. The image from Xbox is also in 4K while the other one is 2K.

Speaking of "bad graphics spoiling the mood in horror games" since we're complaining I think the Xbox version is definitely less horryfing and the Mac version more atmospheric. Just look at the shadows in the Xbox video. They are pale and lack ambient occlusion. It looks washed out. The Mac video creates more tension.

Skärmavbild 2023-06-18 kl. 01.49.03.png


Xbox 4K
Skärmavbild 2023-06-18 kl. 01.49.17.png
 
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mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
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If you want it darker just turn down the brightness and/or change color space on Xbox. And, if you're denying anti-aliasing doesn't look better than turn it off.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
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OBX
Surprised you believe that nonsense or perhaps you lack experience with these type of games. There's a puzzle solving factor that rely on visual cues so graphics detail is important. It's the difference between being able to spot them across the room vs having to get up close. Even more so with Layers of Fear where notes, letters, paintings, etc. are littered all over the game.
Apparently sarcasm doesn’t translate well on the internet.
 
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Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
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Ambient Occlusion has nothing to do with turning down the brightness to make the whole image darker.
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,625
11,298
The only thing that stands out in the first screenshot is the fake dark shadows underneath the cabinets with the three bright low/low hanging light sources so the Xbox is more realistic. Fake shadows go well with the fake anti-aliasing if that's your thing.
 

Nugat Trailers

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2021
297
576
The only thing that stands out in the first screenshot is the fake dark shadows underneath the cabinets with the three bright low/low hanging light sources so the Xbox is more realistic. Fake shadows go well with the fake anti-aliasing if that's your thing.
So, does the Mac version do anything right?
 
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senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
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Another thing that the M1 has that the RX 470 doesn't is AI hardware. Nvidia is able to use their RTX AI (tensor) cores to upscale gaming resolutions using a deep learning technique called DLSS and boost performance by 30-50%. The RX 470 doesn't have this hardware but the M1 has the neural engine that could be used to perform similar upscaling.
This prediction from 3 years ago became true with MetalFX.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
2,665
OBX
This prediction from 3 years ago became true with MetalFX.
Is there a way to show that MFX does use the AI hardware to accelerate the upscaling (seems like they wouldn't bother with spatial upscaling if they can hardware accelerate temporal upscaling).
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,510
2,462
Sweden
So, does the Mac version do anything right?

Apparently it's important to be realistic when it comes to shadows cause darker more immersive ”fake” shadows ruin the experience in horror games but at the same time it’s not important to be realistic when it comes to seeing and reading small bottle labels across the room. If they can’t clearly read tiny graphics without taking a couple of steps forward or unless they have to crop and zoom in or have hawk eyes it’s not realistic and it ruins the game.

Apparently it’s not either important to be realistic when comparing a native 4K image with an upscaled 2K image from a compressed YouTube video. Neither it’s important to be realistic when they compare a 12 TFLOP 200W GPU with a 2.6 TFLOP 10W GPU and expect them to perform equally with all the graphical bells and whistles turned on.

Not a surprising narrative from so called gamers though who apparently get a kick out of reading wine bottle labels in horror games instead of the game itself.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
2,665
OBX
Here are the two images in full for better comparison and context. It's so easy to just zoom in on irrelevant details while the player actually is focusing on the more important things like the story, dialog and action. Not even in real life someone can read a label on a wine bottle across the room. You have to pick the bottle up and read it closely but it's easy to complain when you just can zoom in and crop a small part of an image like that.

It was the same reasoning when a small portion of a construction in the far distance in Batman Arkham City was cropped and zoomed in to prove a similar point when no one actually would focus on such things in gameplay. The image from Xbox is also in 4K while the other one is 2K.

Speaking of "bad graphics spoiling the mood in horror games" since we're complaining I think the Xbox version is definitely less horryfing and the Mac version more atmospheric. Just look at the shadows in the Xbox video. They are pale and lack ambient occlusion. It looks washed out. The Mac video creates more tension.

View attachment 2219533

Xbox 4K
View attachment 2219534
I just want to point out that very few (I was going to say none, but I figured someone would find at least 1 game that was) of the console games are running at native resolution.


My real take on texture resolution/legibility? If you are paying and the higher resolution texture is downloaded but not used, that seems like you are not getting your money's worth, no? Even if I have to run at a lower resolution, I want the crispiest texture the game offers.

EDIT: And yes Shadows and Lighting are very important, which is why some of us are big fans of RT Shadows and RT Ambient Occlusion (really RT Global Illumination). Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition comes to mind (for a game that looks 100% different/better with RT On).

While I agree the colors appear to be off on the Xbox version, I think it is using RT because RT tends to make the lighting more realistic (when doing RT GI) which does change the atmosphere of the game!
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
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Clearly being able to read text on items is for PCMR. Everyone else doesn’t really need to be able to do that…

You never met a PlayStation gamer then. They obsess over small details like this since PlayStation Studios developers like Naughty Dog and Insomniac load their games with details like this, to the point in Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart you can see every individual bit of fur on Ratchet and even see things reflected from eyes.

z6mx2mbpiqqx.png


Yes, this is an actual screenshot ingame.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,437
2,665
OBX
You never met a PlayStation gamer then. They obsess over small details like this since PlayStation Studios developers like Naughty Dog and Insomniac load their games with details like this, to the point in Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart you can see every individual bit of fur on Ratchet and even see things reflected from eyes.

z6mx2mbpiqqx.png


Yes, this is an actual screenshot ingame.
I was being sarcastic. Of course if the developer spends time making assets look awesome, I want to be able to see it. Regardless of what kind of rig I am gaming on.
 

Homy

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2006
2,510
2,462
Sweden
I just want to point out that very few (I was going to say none, but I figured someone would find at least 1 game that was) of the console games are running at native resolution.


My real take on texture resolution/legibility? If you are paying and the higher resolution texture is downloaded but not used, that seems like you are not getting your money's worth, no? Even if I have to run at a lower resolution, I want the crispiest texture the game offers.

EDIT: And yes Shadows and Lighting are very important, which is why some of us are big fans of RT Shadows and RT Ambient Occlusion (really RT Global Illumination). Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition comes to mind (for a game that looks 100% different/better with RT On).

While I agree the colors appear to be off on the Xbox version, I think it is using RT because RT tends to make the lighting more realistic (when doing RT GI) which does change the atmosphere of the game!

Not sure what you mean. The video says it’s running at 4K. Capcom says it runs at 4K on Xbox Series X and according to Microsoft games requiring 4K run at native resolution even if you’ve selected lower resolutions for other content. Xbox automatically switches to 4K then. There is no low-resolution upscaled mode in RE Village on Xbox Series X as far as I know as you also can see in the settings in the beginning of the video. The only questionable thing in the video title is 60 fps. Xbox can’t do that with ray tracing on at 4K in RE Village, only 45 fps.

If you don’t feel you get what you pay for you should play the game on proper hardware fitted for your needs instead of demanding your computer to be something it isn’t and function as a beefy console. My whole objection is against the nonsense about MetalFX upscaling making the graphics in horror games useless and ruining the experience. It’s upscaling btw, not downscaling as stated. MetalFX doesn’t take a high-resolution image and ruins it by downscaling. It upscales low-resolution images to higher resolutions.

Solving puzzles rarely or never works that way. It isn't dependent on graphics in such way described before. MetalFX doesn’t make you suddenly blind or objects invisible and I’ve never seen or played a game where you have to be able to read such small text like a bottle label from far distance to be able to solve problems or make progress. It doesn’t work like that, neither in real life nor in games. You spot objects and examine them up-close. That’s how almost all gamers do. They don’t take screen shots and leave the game to crop and zoom in to solve puzzles. They just go closer and examine things if they can’t see/read. In almost every game such objects are also highlighted or the cursor changes symbol for easier detection, like in Layers of Fear. You can’t read that bottle label either in the large Xbox image unless you get closer or crop and zoom.

Skärmavbild 2023-06-21 kl. 03.39.44.png


If people want to complain about Macs/Apple once more they should at least compare one upscaling technique with another on the same hardware with the same settings, not a native 4K image with highest setting on a beefy console with an upscaled 2K image with lower settings on a base MBA with weaker GPU and half the RAM. That native 2160p image on Xbox is actually more than 3 times larger than 1280p on MBA. Crop and zoom in 3 times more like done before and no wonder you don’t get much fine details. All those circumstances together have a negative impact on image quality.

For a better unbiased professional comparison I recommend Digital Foundry’s video about MetalFX which concludes ”Apple has achieved something quite impressive here”. In comparison with Xbox X they say ”MetalFX Quality does manage to resolve more texture detail, has cleaner and more refined scene geometry and features a smoother rendition of many transparencies”. They also talk about some weaknesses like ghosting and lack of fine details in transparencies like the baby’s hair especially at 1080p.

Skärmavbild 2023-06-21 kl. 03.58.58.png

Skärmavbild 2023-06-21 kl. 03.59.05.png


 
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quarkysg

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2019
1,247
841
If people want to complain about Macs/Apple once more they should at least compare one upscaling technique with another on the same hardware with the same settings, not a native 4K image with highest setting on a beefy console with an upscaled 2K image with lower settings on a base MBA with weaker GPU and half the RAM. That native 2160p image on Xbox is actually more than 3 times larger than 1280p on MBA. Crop and zoom in 3 times more like done before and no wonder you don’t get much fine details. All those circumstances together have a negative impact on image quality.
Folks will feel threaten when their perceived supremacy are challenged and will try all sorts of argument, including goalpost moving, to prove supremacy. :p

I'm just glad that more and more games are released for macOS and Apple is trying to make games developments easier and better for macOS. So what if the games' graphics are not true 4K. What's most important is that we enjoy playing it.

I'm not much of a gamer myself, but the conclusion of WWDC 23 bodes well for macOS in terms of game development.

I suspect the goalpost couldn't be moved much more as macOS evolve, albeit slowly.
 
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