Intelligence Program Gives US Government Direct Access to Customer Data on Apple Servers [Update: Apple Denies]

[DipDog3]

After reading more on this story, I am wondering if this entire story on PRISM is simply a HOAX? Is this just something made up to scare people.

PRISM just seems too good at collecting intelligence to be true.
Also, the amount of resources needed to pull this off for only $20 million/year is ludicrous.

This will come out as a hoax soon.

 

[zin]

Congratulations, you've just greased the slippery slope.

Because they can decide you ARE doing something wrong. Because you're probably violating a bunch of laws without knowing it. Because they don't care if you end up as collateral damage. Because you're easier to use, abuse, and subjugate when they know all about you.

I'm a freedom loving, Constitution defending, God-of-Abraham worshiping, charity providing, armed, self-sufficient, patriotic American. Odd that it seems I'm one of those targeted for scrutiny and oppression.

Beware thinking you won't be a target of those keen on knowing everything about you.

... Pats the sheep on the head ..

The Soviets really did frighten you, didn't they? Have you ever considered that maybe these initiatives are genuinely there to protect you and the entire country?

I don't blame the government for keeping this secret. Not only would this harm the effectiveness of the programme, but there are also too many conspiracy theorists claiming the government is out to enslave and/or kill them. (In which case, where are all of the Second Amendment supporters exercising their rights to eject this ruthless dictator? )

You talk about freedom, too. In what way is this programme harming your freedom? If you are a law-abiding citizen, then you are able to do everything you could do yesterday when you weren't aware of the existence of the programme.

 

[palmharbor]

Patriot Act

This needs to end. Period.

The Republican sponsored Patriot Act passed in 2002 makes all this legal.
Bush signed it....see if Republicans will revoke the bill. THEY WON'T, but they forgot they all signed it. Where were you guys then??

 

[drorpheus]

it truly is all a mirage, ever since America's first great failure... Vietnam

You miss Sept. 11,2001 when the greatest republican leaders let 3000 Americans die by failing to act from warnings 6 months prior? Or the 4000 dead and 30,000 wounded with a 2trillion dollar price tag trying to liberate Iraq from itself? those were proud moments in American history. So was the patriot act that enabled the wiretapping your whining about 7-8 years ago, that's real Marecuh.

 

[3282868]

Aaron Swartz

While I have no opinion one way or the other regarding this matter, here is an example of what could happen if this continues to remain unchecked:

Aaron Swartz’s Father On MIT's Handling Of Case: ‘Something I'll Never Recover From’

Aaron Swartz took his life before he was to stand trial on charges of using MIT’s computer network to steal millions of scholarly articles from a subscription-based website.

The prosecutors and D.A.'s involved are under investigation by an appointed bipartisan federal task force. Aaron Swartz accessed public documents that in their entirety allegedly posed a threat to national security. In fact, that was far from the truth. Instead of taking responsibility for prosecutorial misconduct, they strengthened their resolve. Aaron's family went into serious debt and was about to lose their home while Aaron began losing hope. He took his own life as the prosecutors further mislead the media and his father would be homeless as attorney fees were piling up before a trial even began.

This could happen to anyone. I am not a democrat or a republican, I am socially liberal and mostly fiscally conservative. I state "mostly" as having lived in other first world nation with healthcare, I do believe that half of our tax dollars should not go to an inflated military budget - we outspend North Korea 75 to 1 - but to improving our abysmal education and healthcare system. We are only as strong as our weakest link, if we continue down this path, we will become a nation of under-educated, unhealthy, fearful denizens ill prepared for the global market. We need to work together, not through guns, threats and violence, but through reasoning, temperance, understanding and respect. We all want the same things, we may disagree on how to achieve them, but we don't need to fight one another as this benefits no one but those who seek to divide and conquer.

 

[crees!]

So says the order

Of course Apple denies it. The court order explicitly states that they have to deny it or they are in violation of the order.

 

[alexgowers]

I'm not sure what information people have that they need to keep so private.

I think it goes against everything that is right for anyone to in power to have access to information held by companies but I mean come on really what are you hiding?

You only tell other people what you want to, it's not like they are forcing information about your deepest secrets. The internet is public, you access it with the knowledge that it's all out there being recorded. There are routes round this.

I would be more concerned about CISPA and other corporate run legal crimes against freedom of information. The internet is now just as policed as a street in your local neighbourhood.

Of course if you want to get around the law you can always do that, in the end it's only law abiding users who are affected.

 

[thadoggfather]

Now do you really believe the abuse of government power is limited, in any way, to a single political party? Wouldn't an omnipotent bureaucratic body WANT you to blame the "other side," to deflect attention away from their own nefarious plots?

Absolutely, and I think siding with a party and sticking with that party is dumb because neither party, at their most extreme ends, has any of your best interests at hand.

 

[drorpheus]

Do liberals still love Obama now? How's that GITMO closure going btw?

So you had a massive stroke from 2001-2008? You have a hard time reading? You can't figure out what the Patriot Act is? Or are you too busy checking to see who added you as a Facebook friend to care. Not to worry the right wing nuts will continue to lose national elections and it will give you something to whine about for decades to come.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

The dawn of the digital age has made it very easy for anyone to twist information and set it out into the open, spreading like a disease.

Maybe, but it's also easier to get the truth out too because the Old Media Gatekeepers can't lord over the entire Internet like they did TV, radio, and print.

But that creates another problem: too much information going back and forth combined with a less educated and engaged populace, and also more partisan than patriotic, unable to analyze any news for the real truth. Thus, Abe Lincoln's quote about not being able to fool all the people all the time doesn't hold true anymore.

Even still, censorship, as you suggest, is never the answer. More speech is better than less, at least that has been the American tradition since 1789... or 1791 officially.

 

[3282868]

Maybe, but it's also easier to get the truth out too because the Old Media Gatekeepers can't lord over the entire Internet like they did TV, radio, and print.

But that creates another problem: too much information going back and forth combined with a less educated and engaged populace, and also more partisan than patriotic, unable to analyze any news for the real truth. Thus, Abe Lincoln's quote about not being able to fool all the people all the time doesn't hold true anymore.

Even still, censorship, as you suggest, is never the answer. More speech is better than less, at least that has been the American tradition since 1789... or 1791 officially.

Absolutely, excellent points.

I'm relieved that MacRumors members are having civil and intelligent conversations on this subject. I first read the news on Yahoo! (which was random as it was the first time in years I used my Yahoo! account). The comments, ~16,000 at that moment, were disgusting. No one was engaged in a respectful dialog, rather comments were either extremely partisan, threatened the lives of political officials and "liberals", accused others of being anti-American terrorists, and on and on. Whatever bit of hope I had left for this nation was quickly subjugated in a matter of minutes.

 

[spacehog371]

Of course Apple denies it. The court order explicitly states that they have to deny it or they are in violation of the order.

They aren't required to comment. If they were under a court order to deny it, they would have said no comment, not lie about it.

Also, every other tech company mentioned has made similar statements.

 

[Lancer]

Well, given that the program is [reportedly] designed to monitor "threats" outside US, as well as the fact that all of the above giant multinational companies possess data on customers from all around the world, I'd say it has potential to affect those outside US to an even greater extent.

Look how they are going after Julian Assange. I wouldn't put anything past the US right now.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

So you had a massive stroke from 2001-2008? You have a hard time reading? You can't figure out what the Patriot Act is? Or are you too busy checking to see who added you as a Facebook friend to care. Not to worry the right wing nuts will continue to lose national elections and it will give you something to whine about for decades to come.

Confused by your vile stream of nonsense. Patriot Act was just updated with the blessing of Democrats and Republicans alike, and signed by Obama. So what the heck are you ranting about "right wing nuts" for? "Left wing nuts" are just as rotten here. Also, not sure what the Patriot Act has to do with Gitmo which you were responding two, but Obama did pledge to close it and had the opportunity to start when he had a supermajority in the Senate and majority in the House. But no credible plan was put forth by the admin back then. Just saying...

I just wish people who actually cared about the country and Constitution would win some elections. Enough with this party hackery and pointless name calling. Neither major party seems to give a rats patootey for anything other than how they will get their guys elected or reelected.

 

[toaster64]

Wow, this is going to start a riot here. A lot of MacRumors users are Tea Party or Libertarian US citizens scared pale by federal surveillance. What are you guys, criminals trying to stay under the radar? Anyway, this is not going to end well.

 

[undies1993]

You miss Sept. 11,2001 when the greatest republican leaders let 3000 Americans die by failing to act from warnings 6 months prior? Or the 4000 dead and 30,000 wounded with a 2trillion dollar price tag trying to liberate Iraq from itself? those were proud moments in American history. So was the patriot act that enabled the wiretapping your whining about 7-8 years ago, that's real Marecuh.

Bush, because of American imperialism, made some of the worst decisions for the United States.

However, the Obama administration has done seemingly nothing to change this and more and more innocent Americans and foreigners die everyday as a result.

Forget parties, treat humans as humans.

 

[toaster64]

Let's forget that whole illegal search and seizure thing...because we might arguably avoid a terrorist attack.

And it makes sense that terrorists would plan their next terrorist attack using Facebook and Gmail, so I'm glad the government has an unconstitutional secret court to spy on the general public. The alternative, which would be respecting the privacy of millions of innocent Americans, could be much worse.

I hope you're just playing devil's advocate to make a point...because the fact that anyone who is not employed by the NSA could support PRISM is scary to me.

Oh gee, the government is going to know about all those poopy status updates I put up and my liking of my own comments. Real scary

 

[ConCat]

IN ORDER...to obscure what they were doing the Republicans under Mr. Bush
passed this law that has NOTHING to do with Patriotism ...but strips Americans of most rights including the Prism issue, Verizon issue, holding someone in
prison for any reason or no reason indefinately.
The same Conservatives have totally forgotten their bill and how Bush signed it.
B/c of this law...all of this is legal and has been for many years.

bush was no conservative. He was liberal-class big government, who occasionally swung right.

 

[thadoggfather]

Oh gee, the government is going to know about all those poopy status updates I put up and my liking of my own comments. Real scary

toaster64 visits LOTS of sites late at night. LOTS.

for that extra research stuff he's been doing in his room. you know, alone.

Real scary

 

[toaster64]

So we should sacrifice our basic right to privacy and live in a weirdo surveillance police state just so we can..ahem, "prevent" the occasional terrorist attack? Millions more die from cancer, etc., yet Americans can't even agree on a decent healthcare system. Yet very rare terrorist attacks are enough to make us willingly hand over our privacy?

And how effective is such surveillance anyhow? It doesn't seem all that effective.

How do you know how many terrorist attacks have been prevented by this system? Even those running it don't know the indirect effects of what they do.

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toaster64 visits LOTS of sites late at night. LOTS.

for that extra research stuff he's been doing in his room. you know, alone.

Real scary

Stackoverflow.com? I still don't know how to make my iPhone scan for a freaking Bluetooth device.

----------

It's more convenient to send someone an e-mail rather than a letter, but the amount of servers and computers needed draws a ton of energy and the hardware is made from strip-mined metals and minerals extracted by companies owned by violent African warlords.

Are you trying to say that emails are less environmentally friendly than physical PAPER letters that must be sent by gasoline-powered vehicles sometimes across the world?

 

[undies1993]

How do you know how many terrorist attacks have been prevented by this system? Even those running it don't know the indirect effects of what they do.

Remember back in 2001, when Bush scared congress to lead us into war with Terrorism… well now we are being scared by "terrorism" to give up liberties.

 

[toaster64]

The goal isn't to stop attacks like Boston, the goal is to maintain the absolute obedience of the citizenry and ensure that the "people" never assert their rights over the "government" (or corporations, for that matter)

This is what I was talking about. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that the government could easily silence your anti-government rants (and those of others such as Alex Jones) if it had this kind of surveillance but mysteriously hasn't? Meanwhile, should I expect a van to show up and put a bullet through my head if I criticize Obama?

I'll just say right now that his stimulus package was stupid and failed, and he isn't doing anything to stop the racism his party has already made required by public schools. Let's see what happens "when" the government reads what I just wrote after it wades through quadrillions of other messages on the Internet.

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Remember back in 2001, when Bush scared congress to lead us into war with Terrorism… well now we are being scared by "terrorism" to give up liberties.

Yeah, but what does that have to do with what I just asked? You can't claim to know how many terrorist attacks (if any) have been thwarted by TOP SECRET government agencies.

 

[unobtainium]

How do you know how many terrorist attacks have been prevented by this system? Even those running it don't know the indirect effects of what they do.

Three things.

1) Logic dictates that regardless of the number of terrorist attacks prevented there will still be a far larger number of deaths every year from other things like crime, poor healthcare coverage, and domestic violence. I guess you could argue that I have no way of knowing that, but then I'd begin to suspect that you live in an alternate reality.

2) Officials are generally not very "secretive" about successfully foiling terrorist plots. When it happens (and it has happened) we hear about it.

3) The really bad guys probably aren't communicating via Facebook, Skype and Gmail anyhow. Sophisticated terror operatives are probably using cumbersome encryption and anonymization networks that the average Joe would never bother with. So in effect, the really bad guys will continue to be elusive and difficult to monitor, and meanwhile the NSA is sitting on a "treasure trove" of the average Joe's data (i.e. lolcatz GIFs). Nobody wins, least of all freedom and democracy.

 

[toaster64]

btw this Obamacare (which I assure you is no AppleCare even on its worst day) is going to be run by the IRS.

Our national health coverage. Run. by. IRS. The neutral and loving. I.R.S.

yeaaaah..... Good luck getting sick.

Well of course, the IRS probably loves Obama. He gives them a lot of employment.

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Three things.

1) Logic dictates that regardless of the number of terrorist attacks prevented, crime, a lack of healthcare coverage, and domestic violence will still account for far more deaths and injuries every single year. I guess you could argue that I have no way of knowing that, but then I'd begin to suspect that you live in an alternate reality...

2) Officials are generally not very "secretive" about successfully foiling terrorist plots. When it happens (and it has happened) we hear about it.

3) The really bad guys probably aren't communicating via Facebook, Skype and Gmail anyhow. Sophisticated terror operatives are probably using cumbersome encryption and anonymization networks that the average Joe would never bother with. So in effect, the really bad guys will continue to be difficult to monitor, while meanwhile the NSA sits on a "treasure trove" of the average Joe's lolcatz GIFs. Nobody wins, least of all the spirit of freedom and democracy.

Your #1 is wrong. What if there were massive terrorist attacks that ended up killing more people than those who died from not being treated, or at least almost the same number? Or if the terrorists caused the healthcare system to get worse and make treatment less available? By the way, many forms of cancer cannot be cured.

#2 is only sometimes right. They have to control what they leak to prevent panics or retaliation. They haven't even released the proof of Osama Bin Laden's death, so we're forced to just take their word.

#3 is probably correct for the most part, but why do you care if the government is able to see your cat pictures? I'm honestly suspicious that you're a criminal. Also, it's not just about catching proof of terrorist plots. They sometimes keep an eye on people who seem like they could be violent radicals.

 

[unobtainium]

I'm not sure what information people have that they need to keep so private.

I think it goes against everything that is right for anyone to in power to have access to information held by companies but I mean come on really what are you hiding?

You just answered your own question. It's not about hiding anything - it's about the principle. Has anyone read '1984'? Does anyone really want to live in a surveillance state?

This should make you angry. If it doesn't, there's something seriously wrong with our democracy.

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#3 is probably correct for the most part, but why do you care if the government is able to see your cat pictures? I'm honestly suspicious that you're a criminal. Also, it's not just about catching proof of terrorist plots. They sometimes keep an eye on people who seem like they could be violent radicals.

Because it makes me angry? Because I believe in freedom and democracy? Because the idea of a surveillance state grosses me out?

I honestly find it worrying that people don't seem more upset about this. There's clearly something wrong with our democracy.