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Intelligence Program Gives US Government Direct Access to Customer Data on Apple Servers [Update: Apple Denies]

unobtainium said:
You just answered your own question. It's not about hiding anything - it's about the principle. Has anyone read '1984'? Does anyone really want to live in a surveillance state?

This should make you angry. If it doesn't, there's something seriously wrong with our democracy.
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1984 is a fictional book. If you try to learn anything from that, there's something seriously wrong with our education system.

Wake me up when the government is censoring my opinions about the president. Until then, they can eat my junk on Facebook. The problem with our democracy is that it's filled with dumb people who vote in crap laws like putting warnings on rental car lots warning customers that this is an area with car smog present.
 
toaster64 said:
Yeah, but what does that have to do with what I just asked? You can't claim to know how many terrorist attacks (if any) have been thwarted by TOP SECRET government agencies.
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So I am confused, are you supporting it by saying it has stopped terrorism? Or saying that it could have stopped terrorism? Or saying that it probably has done nothing but seen cat pictures and so is a waste of our tax dollars and an invasion of our privacy?

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toaster64 said:
1984 is a fictional book. If you try to learn anything from that, there's something seriously wrong with our education system.

Wake me up when the government is censoring my opinions about the president. Until then, they can eat my junk on facebook.
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there is something seriously wrong with our education system!
 
thadoggfather said:
Can even the most (blind) and denying loyal Obama followers admit: Obama dun goofed.

Between this and Verizon, AP tapping, Benghazi coverups (don't bother overexaggerating it, it was a 9/11 off shore, even on 9/11, but anyways...) that has whistleblowers jobs threatened from coming forward, awesome sauce, NDAA to allow indefinite detention of prisoners WITHOUT due process signed on New Year's Eve when Obama promised to veto it, the politically discrimating IRS, whose head visited WH 157 times (of course Obama knew about it, you thought he learned about it when mainstream media reported it? He is president, come on, he was/is in on it), electing Rice as a national security adviser, THIS IS INSANE.

something needs to be done immediately. I don't think the American people can be afford to be passive anymore.

He is not a democrat. he is something straight out of 1984.
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I think every American needs to learn to be subjective and not reactive!

Then again, many people believe that the Internet is a haven for truthful information and not opinions.

I believe Apple has not heard of this organization. These agencies are products of the Patriot Act (Bush). Under the Bush regime, it was the "with us or against us" mentality, which has deeply divided our nation since 9/11.

Obama is not a dictator or tyrant. Come January 2017, he will have ended his second term and transition the White House to a new elected President. I hope it's Hillary, or a sensible Democrat; maybe Gary Johnson??

I'm still an Apple fan. They don't willingly hand over information to anybody, unlike El Goog, so I think they're as dumbfounded as the American public. There's so much junk swirling around due to the butthurt Republicans. Not to mention, the spotlight is on Apple, so they're an easy target for bloggers and many people who think they report the "truth." Unless they work for Apple, I don't see these stories being true.
 
undies1993 said:
So I am confused, are you supporting it by saying it has stopped terrorism? Or saying that it could have stopped terrorism? Or saying that it probably has done nothing but seen cat pictures and so is a waste of our tax dollars and an invasion of our privacy?
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Nothing, just saying that you can't judge it without more information.
 
toaster64 said:
1984 is a fictional book. If you try to learn anything from that, there's something seriously wrong with our education system.

Wake me up when the government is censoring my opinions about the president. Until then, they can eat my junk on Facebook. The problem with our democracy is that it's filled with dumb people who vote in crap laws like putting warnings on rental car lots warning customers that this is an area with car smog present.
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Hmm, so you don't think we can learn anything from literature. Okay. Yeah, I guess there is something wrong with our education system.
 
progx said:
I think every American needs to learn to be subjective and not reactive!

Then again, many people believe that the Internet is a haven for truthful information and not opinions.

I believe Apple has not heard of this organization. These agencies are products of the Patriot Act (Bush). Under the Bush regime, it was the "with us or against us" mentality, which has deeply divided our nation since 9/11.

Obama is not a dictator or tyrant. Come January 2017, he will have ended his second term and transition the White House to a new elected President. I hope it's Hillary, or a sensible Democrat; maybe Gary Johnson??

I'm still an Apple fan. They don't willingly hand over information to anybody, unlike El Goog, so I think they're as dumbfounded as the American public. There's so much junk swirling around due to the butthurt Republicans. Not to mention, the spotlight is on Apple, so they're an easy target for bloggers and many people who think they report the "truth." Unless they work for Apple, I don't see these stories being true.
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Libertarian?
 
toaster64 said:
Well of course, the IRS probably loves Obama. He gives them a lot of employment.
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So you're agreeing with me then? Awesome, so don't be so naive you're going to separate IRS tea-party discriminations from the administration as two distinctly different entities with zero overlap and one being sinister and the other free of sin.

toaster64 said:
1984 is a fictional book. If you try to learn anything from that, there's something seriously wrong with our education system.

Wake me up when the government is censoring my opinions about the president. Until then, they can eat my junk on Facebook.
Click to expand...

If you really think 1984 is just fictional dribble to waste your time and print words on pages, with no real underlying truths, not only do you not understand democracy but you also don't understand how to read a novel.

'censoring my opinions' there are far too many opinions out there to censor them all. But I guarantee you for some of the most outspoken folks, they are keeping tabs on them every once in a while more than the usual citizen. Particularly those that dig up these gems of scandals from underneath mossy rocks i.e. whistleblowers.

I mean, in the interest of having no privacy:
tl;dr I love Barack Obama, and he can do harm. He is the best.
 
Lancer said:
How does this affect those of us outside the US?
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Apparently if all parties were outside of US jurisdiction then the automatic data dump was not covered in the program, but who knows really, maybe they believe they don't need warrants for people overseas. Their interpretation is also that all .com e.t.c addresses are deemed within US jurisdiction.
 
unobtainium said:
Hmm, so you don't think we can learn anything from literature. Okay. Yeah, I guess there is something wrong with our education system.
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Not when the literature is just a fictional story book and not a real study based on real information. It's a good book, but it's intended as entertainment, not an argumentative paper with a thesis that the government will abuse its power of surveillance.
 
toaster64 said:
Wake me up when the government is censoring my opinions about the president. Until then, they can eat my junk on Facebook.
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And you apparently don't believe in principles. The government transcending its boundaries and surveilling regular citizens without due cause is okay as long as they don't go further. The principle of it doesn't matter at all.
 
toaster64 said:
Not when the literature is just a fictional story book and not a real study based on real information. It's a good book, but it's intended as entertainment.
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It wasn't intended as entertainment. It was a commentary on fascism, nationalism and the dangers of authoritarian regimes. It's been highly influential in political theory and the general political consciousness. I don't think you can just dismiss it like that.
 
undies1993 said:
Libertarian?
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Yes. I was hoping someone would've caught that name :)

I'm an Obama supporter, but the two party system is broken. Neither party is willing to commit to the world "change," so we the people should vote in a third and fourth party. Corporations and organizations can't buy them all ;)
 
unobtainium said:
And you apparently don't believe in principles. The government transcending its boundaries and surveilling regular citizens without due cause is okay as long as they don't go further. The principle of it doesn't matter at all.
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The principle I care about is that the government should not infringe on my freedom of speech within reason. I'll start worrying about principle when they start punishing innocent people for their opinions. All they're doing now is giving themselves the power to potentially see what I say and monitor me if I exhibit really suspicious activity.

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unobtainium said:
It wasn't intended as entertainment. It was a commentary on fascism, nationalism and the dangers of authoritarian regimes. It's been highly influential in political theory and the general political consciousness. I don't think you can just dismiss it like that.
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It's about communism, not fascism! And it's about USSR communism, to be specific, a current event when it was written. The author isn't making a prediction of future governments, at least not one backed up with any arguments or information.
 
progx said:
Yes. I was hoping someone would've caught that name :)

I'm an Obama supporter, but the two party system is broken. Neither party is willing to commit to the world "change," so we the people should vote in a third and fourth party. Corporations and organizations can't buy them all ;)
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I did catch the name. I don't support either majority party because I too believe it is broken and corrupted by corporate tyranny. I am all for bringing in more parties!

By the way, why support a person who preaches "change" but does not commit to it, essentially lying to his base?
 
toaster64 said:
The principle I care about is that the government should not infringe on my freedom of speech within reason. I'll start worrying about principle when they start punishing innocent people for their opinions.

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It's about communism, not fascism!
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Yeah sorry, I misspoke (miswrote). But an authoritarian regime and a surveillance state nonetheless.

As for your first statement – they are already locking people up in Guantanamo without any due process. Some of the prisoners there are likely innocent – maybe they expressed thoughts that made the government "suspicious" about them, but haven't committed any real crimes. Yet they will have no chance at accessing normal legal means of resistance. Because terrorism.
 
toaster64 said:
The principle I care about is that the government should not infringe on my freedom of speech within reason. I'll start worrying about principle when they start punishing innocent people for their opinions. All they're doing now is giving themselves the power to potentially see what I say and monitor me if I exhibit really suspicious activity.
Click to expand...

Hasn't Obama's administration accused a reported of conspiracy because they talked to a leak source?
 
thadoggfather said:
So you're agreeing with me then? Awesome, so don't be so naive you're going to separate IRS tea-party discriminations from the administration as two distinctly different entities with zero overlap and one being sinister and the other free of sin.
Click to expand...

I never mentioned the scandal. I'm just saying that Obama gives the IRS a lot of employment because he taxes a lot. And I'm not even making any statement about whether or not Obama should be taxing that much.
 
unobtainium said:
Yeah sorry, I misspoke (miswrote). But an authoritarian regime and a surveillance state nonetheless.

As for your first statement – they are already locking people up in Guantanamo without any due process. Some of the prisoners there are likely innocent – maybe they expressed thoughts that made the government "suspicious" about them, but haven't committed any real crimes. Yet they will have no chance at accessing normal legal means of resistance. Because terrorism.
Click to expand...

Wait, I thought I saw a movie about how this helped us catch Bin Laden. ;)
 
cmChimera said:
The program began under Bush. Good luck with learning how to think critically.
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Ah, the Bush's fault argument.

Obama's in the fifth year of his presidency. At some point, he owns what's going on, whether he feigns ignorance or not.
 
thadoggfather said:
If you really think 1984 is just fictional dribble to waste your time and print words on pages, with no real underlying truths, not only do you not understand democracy but you also don't understand how to read a novel.

'censoring my opinions' there are far too many opinions out there to censor them all. But I guarantee you for some of the most outspoken folks, they are keeping tabs on them every once in a while more than the usual citizen. Particularly those that dig up these gems of scandals from underneath mossy rocks i.e. whistleblowers.

I mean, in the interest of having no privacy:
tl;dr I love Barack Obama, and he can do harm. He is the best.
Click to expand...

Fiction is not a waste of time. Fictional books can have lessons in them and often do, but 1984 doesn't really make any argument against surveillance in general anywhere in it. It's about a theoretical authoritarian communist government (based on the USSR) and Winston's experience with it. You can interpret it in various ways. Did you also see Back to the Future Part II and assume that we'd have flying cars by 2015?

You're right about the government keeping tabs on suspicious individuals. They had the Boston bombing terrorists on their list before the attacks but, unfortunately, did not stop them. It's very different from the censorship and mind control of 1984.
 
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