iOS 11 a foreshadow of an underwhelming 10 year iPhone release?

[chriscrowlee]

I admire your commitment to this thread that i mistook for being a thread for users to offload some disappointment with the new OS. Unfortunately others got wind of us being here and true to form came with their patronisingly demeaning response to your thread and any supporting comments to it.

Its futile mate. Guess this is just the wrong forum to be in without a positive apple worldview. Best of luck

I retract all previous comments and replace with the following:

Apple can do no wrong
Apple is amazing
Apple has no faults
Apple can announce a feature, fail to deliver, and I must still be grateful
Apple is the source of all things good in this world
I will never speak ill of Apple
I will never disparage Apple's track record
I will ignore all the screw-ups Apple does
Apple is infallible

Hmm, why do I think this is the same set of guidelines Apple Employees sign when they start with the company?

 

[chriscrowlee]

When Apple says months ahead of time that a feature is coming in iOS 11 (not specifically 11.0), then a week later clarify that those items won't in fact be in 11.0 but will be in a later 11.x release, I don't see how that is Apple's fault. The fact that you didn't follow the news as closely as others does not mean I'm defending Apple.

Clearly you're not in tech. If you hold a big event with investors, developers, and customers, when you announce a feature of a major release (ie iOS 11 or High Sierra), the general purpose of announcing said features is they're a feature of that OS. Dot.x releases are intended for bug fixes, never for adding major features announced as part of the OS.

You can defend Apple all you want, but the fact that iOS and Mac OS High Sierra are launching without cloud iMessage sync, and P2P payments when Apple spent a significant amount of time hilighting these as release features, you're on the wrong side here.

And the part where you accuse me of not following the news and that it's my issue... PLEASE, cite a press release or any communication from Apple where they announced neither feature would actually be launched with iOS 11 and High Sierra. Oh that's right, there wasn't any. Sorry, I don't hold RUMORS of what is and isn't happening as news. You seem to.

 

[C DM]

Clearly you're not in tech. If you hold a big event with investors, developers, and customers, when you announce a feature of a major release (ie iOS 11 or High Sierra), the general purpose of announcing said features is they're a feature of that OS. Dot.x releases are intended for bug fixes, never for adding major features announced as part of the OS.

You can defend Apple all you want, but the fact that iOS and Mac OS High Sierra are launching without cloud iMessage sync, and P2P payments when Apple spent a significant amount of time hilighting these as release features, you're on the wrong side here.

And the part where you accuse me of not following the news and that it's my issue... PLEASE, cite a press release or any communication from Apple where they announced neither feature would actually be launched with iOS 11 and High Sierra. Oh that's right, there wasn't any. Sorry, I don't hold RUMORS of what is and isn't happening as news. You seem to.

Actually it would seem that those "in tech" would know that often enough a feature of an upcoming major new version of a software/OS wouldn't necessarily be there in the x.0 release. It's really nothing new or strange in the tech world. It's not something that happens all the time or with many features, but it's certainly not something that's somehow all that unusual, let alone shocking and terrible in some way.

 

[chriscrowlee]

Actually it would seem that those "in tech" would know that often enough a feature of an upcoming major new version of a software/OS wouldn't necessarily be there in the x.0 release. It's really nothing new or strange in the tech world. It's not something that happens all the time or with many features, but it's certainly not something that's somehow all that unusual and strange, let alone shocking and terrible in some way.

Maybe you are in tech, cause that's the excuse someone in tech would use as to justify a delay in a feature being ready to launch. There's no rationale to hold off releasing it after Tim Cook stood on stage and said coming in September to Mac and iOS

 

[Aydy]

When your $0.02 mentions others coming here "with their patronisingly demeaning response to your thread", then you've lost the right to the claim that you're just here to support the original poster. That was a very direct attack against those that disagree with you. So either drop the innocent act or admit that you're poking the bear just as much as everyone else.

Sorry I missed out on your "rules of etiquette of forum discussion". I'm sure it would have been insightful. Or not. After all, I AM just a "tramp on a sandwich".

I came to support the original post (was attracted by the title).
I was patronised/demeened (namely by the person liking your posts) i then looked around, found an ‘ignore’ button ignored, and left to go eat and do normal life (stuff of real importance) then i slept like a baby.

Thanks for your input tho. Im tickled that people are still responding and seem to want me back.

I am being slightly sarcastic (sorry) but im not much feeling this thread any longer and i do like a last word so feel free to ignore me.

 

[C DM]

Maybe you are in tech, cause that's the excuse someone in tech would use as to justify a delay in a feature being ready to launch. There's no rationale to hold off releasing it after Tim Cook stood on stage and said coming in September to Mac and iOS

There can be plenty of rationale, like that it's simply not fully ready yet (for one reason or another), or there are some issues that haven't been worked out, or something else of that nature. Again, by far nothing new or strange when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Interesting take on it: if you are "not in tech" then this kind of thing just doesn't happen in tech and you don't really know that since you are "not in tech", but if you are "in tech" then it's a typical thing that someone "in tech" would say (since it's something that happens in tech often enough). Can't really have it both ways.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Clearly you're not in tech.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. I've been a developer for over 30 years.

 

[chriscrowlee]

There can be plenty of rationale, like that it's simply not fully ready yet (for one reason or another), or there are some issues that haven't been worked out, or something else of that nature. Again, by far nothing new or strange when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Interesting take on it: if you are "not in tech" then this kind of thing just doesn't happen in tech and you don't really know that since you are "not in tech", but if you are "in tech" then it's a typical thing that someone "in tech" would say (since it's something that happens in tech often enough). Can't really have it both ways.

"... if you're not in tech"

then you replied with the excuse factory

"... maybe you are in tech"

What's unclear? At first I assumed your blind defense of Apple was because you didn't understand, but then the reply that it'd be a .1 release showed maybe you are in tech (dev side)... devs love to make excuses (how bout we just put it in a .1 release) when the reality is they can't get it done in time.

Yeah, I agree 100% it's not fully ready. But this new Apple Timmy is leading is becoming more and more known for announcing features that aren't ready. AirPods, Beats X, MacBook Pro TB, cloud iMessage sync, APFS for current iMac models, P2P Apple pay, cable company integration in TV, and the list goes on. I'm not faulting them for not releasing a non-functional product, I'm faulting what's clearly a rift in the company where R&D, product, supply chain, marketing, and upper management clearly exists. I have friends at Apple who say cross-departmental communication at the company the last few years has been abysmal. I believe it seeing how these things have gone lately.

It's one thing to say "We're working on a new charging system we hope to have out next year" and have it slip to 2019. It's another to say in a June 10 event broadcast around the world that there will be 10 key new features released in High Sierra, and 90 days later release high sierra and 3 of the 10 key features not exist, and give no explanation or correction to the previous statement. Apple has done this 3 years in a row now... it's their way of burying a feature they can't figure out how to make work. If you don't have a grasp on how to make it work, wait to announce it until you do. But then again their WWDC would have been even more underwhelming if they hadn't.
[doublepost=1506033465][/doublepost]

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. I've been a developer for over 30 years.

Don't know many developer participants on here who have been members for 9 years and only typed <500 posts. But okay. Plus if you started in the mid 80s, that'd put you into an age bracket of someone who normally would have long since retired.

 

[C DM]

"... if you're not in tech"

then you replied with the excuse factory

"... maybe you are in tech"

What's unclear? At first I assumed your blind defense of Apple was because you didn't understand, but then the reply that it'd be a .1 release showed maybe you are in tech (dev side)... devs love to make excuses (how bout we just put it in a .1 release) when the reality is they can't get it done in time.

Yeah, I agree 100% it's not fully ready. But this new Apple Timmy is leading is becoming more and more known for announcing features that aren't ready. AirPods, Beats X, MacBook Pro TB, cloud iMessage sync, APFS for current iMac models, P2P Apple pay, cable company integration in TV, and the list goes on. I'm not faulting them for not releasing a non-functional product, I'm faulting what's clearly a rift in the company where R&D, product, supply chain, marketing, and upper management clearly exists. I have friends at Apple who say cross-departmental communication at the company the last few years has been abysmal. I believe it seeing how these things have gone lately.

It's one thing to say "We're working on a new charging system we hope to have out next year" and have it slip to 2019. It's another to say in a June 10 event broadcast around the world that there will be 10 key new features released in High Sierra, and 90 days later release high sierra and 3 of the 10 key features not exist, and give no explanation or correction to the previous statement. Apple has done this 3 years in a row now... it's their way of burying a feature they can't figure out how to make work. If you don't have a grasp on how to make it work, wait to announce it until you do. But then again their WWDC would have been even more underwhelming if they hadn't.
[doublepost=1506033465][/doublepost]

Don't know many developer participants on here who have been members for 9 years and only typed <500 posts. But okay. Plus if you started in the mid 80s, that'd put you into an age bracket of someone who normally would have long since retired.

Basically dismiss what's said by pigeonholing someone as "not in tech", then dismiss what's said by pigeonholing someone as "in tech"--convenient way to just dismiss everything without really considering what's actually said. Seems to demonstrate that there really isn't much up for discussion. Ultimately that's all fine since reality speaks for itself.

 

[Aydy]

"... if you're not in tech"

then you replied with the excuse factory

"... maybe you are in tech"

What's unclear? At first I assumed your blind defense of Apple was because you didn't understand, but then the reply that it'd be a .1 release showed maybe you are in tech (dev side)... devs love to make excuses (how bout we just put it in a .1 release) when the reality is they can't get it done in time.

Yeah, I agree 100% it's not fully ready. But this new Apple Timmy is leading is becoming more and more known for announcing features that aren't ready. AirPods, Beats X, MacBook Pro TB, cloud iMessage sync, APFS for current iMac models, P2P Apple pay, cable company integration in TV, and the list goes on. I'm not faulting them for not releasing a non-functional product, I'm faulting what's clearly a rift in the company where R&D, product, supply chain, marketing, and upper management clearly exists. I have friends at Apple who say cross-departmental communication at the company the last few years has been abysmal. I believe it seeing how these things have gone lately.

It's one thing to say "We're working on a new charging system we hope to have out next year" and have it slip to 2019. It's another to say in a June 10 event broadcast around the world that there will be 10 key new features released in High Sierra, and 90 days later release high sierra and 3 of the 10 key features not exist, and give no explanation or correction to the previous statement. Apple has done this 3 years in a row now... it's their way of burying a feature they can't figure out how to make work. If you don't have a grasp on how to make it work, wait to announce it until you do. But then again their WWDC would have been even more underwhelming if they hadn't.
[doublepost=1506033465][/doublepost]

Don't know many developer participants on here who have been members for 9 years and only typed <500 posts. But okay. Plus if you started in the mid 80s, that'd put you into an age bracket of someone who normally would have long since retired.

Seriously, i think they know what you are saying makes sense but simply can not bring themselves to a level where they may be involved in actively admitting that there are screwups at apple.

This is a ‘corporation’ these people are defending. Its not like its personal, its corporate big tech that are messing up yet one would think we are we are being disloyal to their loved ones. So protective of a corporation. Its bizarre.
The title of the thread says it all! Its to discuss where apple have messed up yet many feel the need to come to the thread to tell us we are lying. That its not possible that apple could be tactically underhand

 

[chriscrowlee]

Basically dismiss what's said by pigeonholing someone as "not in tech", then dismiss what's said by pigeonholing someone as "in tech"--convenient way to just dismiss everything without really considering what's actually said. Seems to demonstrate that there really isn't much up for discussion. Ultimately that's all fine since reality speaks for itself.

Yep, reality is Apple announced 2 key features coming to their OS... and quietly they both disappeared. Reality.

 

[C DM]

Seriously, i think they know what you are saying makes sense but simply can not bring themselves to a level where they may be involved in actively admitting that there are screwups at apple.

This is a ‘corporation’ these people are defending. Its not like its personal, its corporate big tech that are messing up yet one would think we are we are being disloyal to their loved ones. So protective of a corporation. Its bizarre.
The title of the thread says it all! Its to discuss where apple have messed up yet many feel the need to come to the thread to tell us we are lying. That its not possible that apple could be tactically underhand

It's interesting how it in the eyes of some it's supposedly perfectly normal (and even supposedly right/good) to feel outraged about something and comment on that, but somehow weird (and even crazy/bad) if someone doesn't feel outraged about the same thing and comments on that.
[doublepost=1506034555][/doublepost]

Yep, reality is Apple announced 2 key features coming to their OS... and quietly they both disappeared. Reality.

Except that the actual reality is that Apple announced features coming in the new version of their OS and a few didn't appear in the very initial x.0 release of that OS.

 

[chriscrowlee]

Seriously, i think they know what you are saying makes sense but simply can not bring themselves to a level where they may be involved in actively admitting that there are screwups at apple.

This is a ‘corporation’ these people are defending. Its not like its personal, its corporate big tech that are messing up yet one would think we are we are being disloyal to their loved ones. So protective of a corporation. Its bizarre.
The title of the thread says it all! Its to discuss where apple have messed up yet many feel the need to come to the thread to tell us we are lying. That its not possible that apple could be tactically underhand

Agree 100%. It's always one or two participants who seem to come to the defense. It's like the current political climate. Trump could give free health insurance to everyone, and dems would still bash him for the idea. Pelosi could support tax cuts on the rich, and republicans would still bash her for the idea.

I think we're dealing with Apple employees here. Maybe some people who just love Apple way too much to ever find fault in anything they do? Your comparison of acting like it's personal is spot-on. Nobody in engineering, product, marketing, or supply chain would EVER say announcing two key features as part of a new OS and then them not being ready at time of launch is anything BUT negative. There's no positive spin to that. There's no way to justify it. We're not talking about forward looking statements 2 years out, we're talking 90 days. If Apple doesn't have a firm grasp on their product\service pipeline 90 days out, there's something VERY wrong.

 

[C DM]

Agree 100%. It's always one or two participants who seem to come to the defense. It's like the current political climate. Trump could give free health insurance to everyone, and dems would still bash him for the idea. Pelosi could support tax cuts on the rich, and republicans would still bash her for the idea.

I think we're dealing with Apple employees here. Maybe some people who just love Apple way too much to ever find fault in anything they do? Your comparison of acting like it's personal is spot-on. Nobody in engineering, product, marketing, or supply chain would EVER say announcing two key features as part of a new OS and then them not being ready at time of launch is anything BUT negative. There's no positive spin to that. There's no way to justify it. We're not talking about forward looking statements 2 years out, we're talking 90 days. If Apple doesn't have a firm grasp on their product\service pipeline 90 days out, there's something VERY wrong.

As fairly typical, the arguments just go down the ad hominem path, which ultimately says quite a bit as to how much those arguments have going for them.

 

[chriscrowlee]

It's interesting how it in the eyes of some it's supposedly perfectly normal (and even supposedly right/good) to feel outraged about something and comment on that, but somehow weird (and even crazy/bad) if someone doesn't feel outraged about the same thing and comments on that.
[doublepost=1506034555][/doublepost]
Except that the actual reality is that Apple announced features coming in the new version of their OS and a few didn't appear in the very initial x.0 release of that OS.

No, you're not posting a thread that you love the OS. You're going to a thread where there are factual arguments as to some things that have gone wrong, and saying the person is wrong for having an opinion. Just because you don't like how someone feels doesn't mean you have superior feelings.

The new version of their OS is out. If you seriously think that operating systems with annual releases are "we're always adding features" you're delusional. A .x release is for bug fixes. Look at the entire history of Mac OS and iOS, you'll see. Or ANY operating system made by anyone for that matter. You're basically saying if Toyota announces that their 2018 cars will have automatic braking, and they release it and say oops, it's not ready yet, check back in 6 months for an update, that that's a legitimate way to do business? You can say it all you want, but you know it's not right, it's not normal.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Don't know many developer participants on here who have been members for 9 years and only typed <500 posts. But okay. Plus if you started in the mid 80s, that'd put you into an age bracket of someone who normally would have long since retired.

Congratulations, now you know 1 more. As for the age thing, yes, I've been programming professionally (ie creating real software for real businesses making real money) since the mid '80s. I began doing so with a Mathematics / Computer Science degree in '91. But that doesn't discount the fact my career started much earlier writing software for a printing shop while I was in high school. As for retirement, that's 15 years off yet.

So yeah, despite your assumptions, I AM in tech and have been so for my entire adult life.

And for what it's worth, this isn't the first time Apple has added major functionality in a dot release. They've done it multiple times in the past.

 

[C DM]

No, you're not posting a thread that you love the OS. You're going to a thread where there are factual arguments as to some things that have gone wrong, and saying the person is wrong for having an opinion. Just because you don't like how someone feels doesn't mean you have superior feelings.

The new version of their OS is out. If you seriously think that operating systems with annual releases are "we're always adding features" you're delusional. A .x release is for bug fixes. Look at the entire history of Mac OS and iOS, you'll see. Or ANY operating system made by anyone for that matter. You're basically saying if Toyota announces that their 2018 cars will have automatic braking, and they release it and say oops, it's not ready yet, check back in 6 months for an update, that that's a legitimate way to do business? You can say it all you want, but you know it's not right, it's not normal.

Yeah, except none of that has been happening on my part (while it has certainly been happening the other way around). The logical fallacies seem to be adding up rather quickly, only further undermining it all.

 

[chriscrowlee]

And for what it's worth, this isn't the first time Apple has added major functionality in a dot release. They've done it multiple times in the past.

Citations?
[doublepost=1506035114][/doublepost]

Yeah, except none of that has been happening on my part (while it has certainly been happening the other way around). The logical fallacies seem to be adding up rather quickly, only further undermining it all.

Or the same two people keep beating the Apple can do no wrong drum. And looking at post histories the same couple people do it in every thread they get into. Here I thought I was a special chosen one.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Yep, reality is Apple announced 2 key features coming to their OS... and quietly they both disappeared. Reality.

They did NOT quietly disappear. Reality!

It's been known for months they wouldn't make 11.0. People were discussing it in the beta 1 thread as I recall. It was in all the release notes for each beta as I recall. They said those features are coming. They are coming. Unless they miss 11.x altogether, you really can't say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence of Apple saying "It will be in 11.0", then I fail to understand your point. I don't recall them ever saying those features would be available from day 1. I've asked before, but no one yet has produced such a document. Just because it was announced to be coming in iOS 11, does not mean 11.0.

 

[chriscrowlee]

They did NOT quietly disappear. Reality!

It's been known for months they wouldn't make 11.0. People were discussing it in the beta 1 thread as I recall. It was in all the release notes for each beta as I recall. They said those features are coming. They are coming. Unless they miss 11.x altogether, you really can't say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence of Apple saying "It will be in 11.0", then I fail to understand your point. I don't recall them ever saying those features would be available from day 1. I've asked before, but no one yet has produced such a document. Just because it was announced to be coming in iOS 11, does not mean 11.0.

Did we watch a different WWDC Keynote? It's always the same format... "Hey look at all these cool new features of iOS and Mac OS".... then they run through these features... then Tim comes back at the end and recaps, and says "All of these will be available on all macs xxx and newer as a free update in September" ... what's unclear about that? I'm taking his words literally, and you're looking for some out.

 

[MEJHarrison]

Citations?

Sure, why not. iOS 10.1 added Portrait Camera for the 7 Plus. iOS 10.2 added the new TV app and Single Sign-On. 10.3 add an entire new file system (APFS). 9.3 added support for Night Shift. I found this on the IOS Version History page on wikipedia.

None of those (in my opinion) were minor. APFS was a HUGE under-the-covers update.

Now please return the favor and provide citations where they announced that the two features you keep going on about were promised in 11.0.

 

[I7guy]

Maybe you are in tech, cause that's the excuse someone in tech would use as to justify a delay in a feature being ready to launch. There's no rationale to hold off releasing it after Tim Cook stood on stage and said coming in September to Mac and iOS
[doublepost=1506032710][/doublepost]

Again with the name calling. Thanks!

September isn’t over yet. You may have a point on oct 1.

 

[chriscrowlee]

They did NOT quietly disappear. Reality!

It's been known for months they wouldn't make 11.0. People were discussing it in the beta 1 thread as I recall. It was in all the release notes for each beta as I recall. They said those features are coming. They are coming. Unless they miss 11.x altogether, you really can't say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence of Apple saying "It will be in 11.0", then I fail to understand your point. I don't recall them ever saying those features would be available from day 1. I've asked before, but no one yet has produced such a document. Just because it was announced to be coming in iOS 11, does not mean 11.0.

Apple has since deleted the keynote (presumably for this reason) and now only posts the breakout session videos... but hopefully this refreshes your memory.



[doublepost=1506036485][/doublepost]

Sure, why not. iOS 10.1 added Portrait Camera for the 7 Plus. iOS 10.2 added the new TV app and Single Sign-On. 10.3 add an entire new file system (APFS). 9.3 added support for Night Shift. I found this on the IOS Version History page on wikipedia.

None of those (in my opinion) were minor. APFS was a HUGE under-the-covers update.

Now please return the favor and provide citations where they announced that the two features you keep going on about were promised in 11.0.

The portrait mode was beta almost the entire time. I think it may even still be "beta"... ???

Single sign on has been promised for years, and 95% of US households can't use it because Apple and the cable companies won't play nice.

I agree APFS is big... BUT APFS isn't available for 99% of iMacs or Mac Mini sold in the last 5 years. Notice if you watch the keynote at WWDC he said all macs after 2012 would support it. Yet another example.

11.0? When has Apple ever ever ever referred to an iOS as 11.0? Never. "iOS 11" ... anything 11.x is iOS 11, and to suggest they intentionally wait a month or three for any reason beside a feature not being ready is foolish.
[doublepost=1506036521][/doublepost]

September isn’t over yet. You may have a point on oct 1.

given there has been zero beta activity in the last two weeks, there's nothing for them to push between now and october 1, LOL.

 

[I7guy]

Apple has since deleted the keynote (presumably for this reason) and now only posts the breakout session videos... but hopefully this refreshes your memory.


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[doublepost=1506036485][/doublepost]

The portrait mode was beta almost the entire time. I think it may even still be "beta"... ???

Single sign on has been promised for years, and 95% of US households can't use it because Apple and the cable companies won't play nice.

I agree APFS is big... BUT APFS isn't available for 99% of iMacs or Mac Mini sold in the last 5 years. Notice if you watch the keynote at WWDC he said all macs after 2012 would support it. Yet another example.

11.0? When has Apple ever ever ever referred to an iOS as 11.0? Never. "iOS 11" ... anything 11.x is iOS 11, and to suggest they intentionally wait a month or three for any reason beside a feature not being ready is foolish.
[doublepost=1506036521][/doublepost]

given there has been zero beta activity in the last two weeks, there's nothing for them to push between now and october 1, LOL.

Well a point release can come at any time without a beta. Software development is a journey not a destination.

 

[C DM]

11.0? When has Apple ever ever ever referred to an iOS as 11.0? Never. "iOS 11" ... anything 11.x is iOS 11

And there you go, after all the attempts at deflections and twists and turns, you understand and agree on that point after all.