iPad as a laptop replacement

[Ludatyk]

2017 ? The MB12 came out in 2015, I bought 4 of them for my family other than my youngest. I was a great supporter of the format, but boy did they fail to keep pace and even my wife with a very modest requirements of dailies soon had hers over heating, so she only got 4/5 years out of hers and an arm based Samsung Book that took over was like a breath of fresh air for her usage and lighter with well over 15 hours battery

Yeah, it was introduced in 2015.. but the latest update was back in 2017. And I believe I purchased one back during that time… but unsurprisingly I favored the iPad more

 

[Digitalguy]

I disagree. If it was marketed better and more people were aware of it... it would be used more than you think especially for people on a budget.

Well we have different opinions on Dex and that's fine.

As much as I like DeX, my wish for Samsung is to replace DeX with ChromeOS... but I know that'll never happen.


I understand you are a tech enthusiast with many devices at your disposal, but I'm curious in what cases are you daily using a 2017 Macbook?

I use it like a...Chromebook, so essentialy for Chrome, mainly to watch youtube around my house. It's always on and it's so light that it's like holding an iPad, but with a keyboard always ready that can also act as a stand. The great speakers and light weight make it perfect. And with universal control I can sometimes use the same mouse (or its keyboard) to control my iPads. Most of the time it lives in my kitchen (I work from home most of the time) so I use it to watch stuff while I eat.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Source?

I would ask you for a source that memory swap isn't a) still available on the SSD/storage controller and b) available to the OS itself.

If you look at the articles about it they are all very low info. They just bleat the same line "memory swap isn't on the 64GB Air". They are conflating memory swap being possible because of the hardware, and memory swap being available for individual apps to request more RAM than was allowed before iPadOS16.

Apple's statement on memory swap: "Pad storage can be used to expand the available memory for all apps and delivers up to 16 gigabytes of memory for the most demanding apps."

And the disclaimer is "Available on iPad Air (5th generation) with a minimum of 256GB storage"

All that means is that apps aren't allowed to request memory swap to give them larger amounts of RAM to work with. It does not mean the 64GB SSD/storage controller isn't capable of utilising memory swap to keep 8 apps running side by side, with the caveat that it doesn't allow those apps access to request additional RAM.

People and tech "journalists" just wanted to be outraged about Stage Manager so badly that they jumped in without thinking or verifying.

 

[teh_hunterer]

As for 99% in your institution etc, as I said it doesn't matter most of the time, as there is already a more capable OS available.

Only because said institution still buys a giant fleet of laptops for the staff and refreshes them every 3 years. I can't remember the figure on our total spend for devices each year but it's certainly in the double digit millions. Eventually I don't think they're going to do that.

And as a laptop replacement on the go, you need a laptop dock, which more "inconvenient" than an actual laptop.

Sure, but as this stuff becomes more mature and possible, institutions are going to wonder whose work truly requires a computer on the go, because buying them a laptop rather than just getting them to use their work phone on a dock at their desk will be more expensive. As I said, every desk at the multiple locations at my institution has a USB-C dock and monitors already.

People who actually need a computer on the go will still get a laptop, but I'm not so sure about the rest.

As for replacing a broken laptop, yes, it's part of "in a pinch" and it's still a partial replacement.
The issue I have is when someone says "I could replace a 3.5 pounds laptop" with a phone. No, you would still need additional hardware on the go and on site you probably already have desktops available. And above all, there are all the missing software and features from a desktop OS.

It's not a given at all that there are desktops available. I work for a large institution with thousands of staff, thousands of desks, and at this point 99% of desks have a USB-C dock and two monitors, that staff plug their laptop into. Only edge cases get a desktop. And I've already heard we're keeping a close eye on this phone-as-desktop stuff, because no organisation wants to spend money on laptops they don't need. We've virtualised the majority of the apps we use and they can already be run from any platform.

It's not there yet, but could be eventually.

And for the last point, I am the first person to ask for a 2lb MacBook. I refuse to buy any Apple Silicon MacBook over 1kg. I have 2 12" Macbooks and I still use them daily. Plus a 2lb cellular Thinkpad. So I am the first fan of ultraportables.
Dex or Stage Manager in a phone are no replacement for that.

Not for me and you, but for many people, it could be. I chase the best setup rather than the minimal acceptable setup. Phone-as-desktop is probably going to be that minimal acceptable setup that I'll only ever use in a pinch.

 

[Digitalguy]

I would ask you for a source that memory swap isn't a) still available on the SSD/storage controller and b) available to the OS itself.

If you look at the articles about it they are all very low info. They just bleat the same line "memory swap isn't on the 64GB Air". They are conflating memory swap being possible because of the hardware, and memory swap being available for individual apps to request more RAM than was allowed before iPadOS16.

Apple's statement on memory swap: "Pad storage can be used to expand the available memory for all apps and delivers up to 16 gigabytes of memory for the most demanding apps."

And the disclaimer is "Available on iPad Air (5th generation) with a minimum of 256GB storage"

All that means is that apps aren't allowed to request memory swap to give them larger amounts of RAM to work with. It does not mean the 64GB SSD/storage controller isn't capable of utilising memory swap to keep 8 apps running side by side, with the caveat that it doesn't allow those apps access to request additional RAM.

People and tech "journalists" just wanted to be outraged about Stage Manager so badly that they jumped in without thinking or verifying.

So yours is just a guess. My guess is that, even if the iPad is capable of memory swap, there is no memory swap for 2 reasons:
1. memory swap takes SSD space and 64 is not large
2. more importantly, memory swap wears the SSD and the smallest SSD would be the most affected.

While my guess (on the reasons why there is no swap) is as good as yours (as there is no official statement), based on what Apple has officially said, it's likely that there is no swap at all on the entry level air 5. Also, nobody knows if swap is used at all for Stage Manager or not. As I said a couple of weeks ago, swap might only be used for RAM-hungry apps, and not be used for Stage Manager at all, and nobody has proof of the contrary.

 

[teh_hunterer]

So yours is just a guess.

Well, no, the vast swathe of news articles are just guessing. They don't source one single piece of information that says Apple somehow decided to remove the part of the SSD/storage controller from every 64GB M1 chip that makes memory swap possible. It's a ridiculous claim when you think about it, and I would expect better from places that I thought were legit, like 9to5 Mac, which went all in on it.

It's just a trueism that came up in the heat of the moment and stuck.

Unless someone can point to a source that isn't "9to5 Mac said so", or "a developer said their app can't access memory swap", it's a completely unverified claim. 9to5 Mac provides no source for their claim except the one I already provided from Apple, and we already know that individual apps can't request the memory swap feature on the 64GB Air.

Also, nobody knows if swap is used at all for Stage Manager or not. As I said a couple of weeks ago, swap might only be used for RAM-hungry apps, and not be used for Stage Manager at all, and nobody has proof of the contrary.

There is proof of the contrary. The 64GB M1 Air has 8GB of RAM - if you run 8 RAM hungry apps side by side in Stage Manager, and each if them is using as much RAM as iPadOS lets them use, that's well above the 8GB of RAM available in that iPad. If it doesn't use virtual memory, the apps would crash.

 

[DeepSix]

$130 CAD from Amazon. Solid reviews, nothing to lose to try out. 1/3 the price of the apple one. Better materials here with harder TPU plastic that doesn't suck in dust.

 

[prospervic]

$130 CAD from Amazon. Solid reviews, nothing to lose to try out. 1/3 the price of the apple one. Better materials here with harder TPU plastic that doesn't suck in dust.

View attachment 2189733

Looks cool. Mind telling us which brand/model this is?

 

[Digitalguy]

Well, no, the vast swathe of news articles are just guessing. They don't source one single piece of information that says Apple somehow decided to remove the part of the SSD/storage controller from every 64GB M1 chip that makes memory swap possible. It's a ridiculous claim when you think about it, and I would expect better from places that I thought were legit, like 9to5 Mac, which went all in on it.

It's just a trueism that came up in the heat of the moment and stuck.

Unless someone can point to a source that isn't "9to5 Mac said so", or "a developer said their app can't access memory swap", it's a completely unverified claim. 9to5 Mac provides no source for their claim except the one I already provided from Apple, and we already know that individual apps can't request the memory swap feature on the 64GB Air.


There is proof of the contrary. The 64GB M1 Air has 8GB of RAM - if you run 8 RAM hungry apps side by side in Stage Manager, and each if them is using as much RAM as iPadOS lets them use, that's well above the 8GB of RAM available in that iPad. If it doesn't use virtual memory, the apps would crash.

You have proof of nothing, just guesses.

 

[teh_hunterer]

You have proof of nothing, just guesses.

You're not thinking critically.

You can't point out a valid source for any of the articles claiming memory swap isn't possible on the 64GB M1 chip, because there isn't one. It's just a 9to5 Mac article that everyone else took as gospel and parroted.

With that claim as well I assume you'll explain how 8 apps can run side by side in Stage Manager, whose RAM usage would exceed the device's 8GB of RAM, without using virtual memory. There's got to be a simple explanation, so I'll wait.

 

[Digitalguy]

You're not thinking critically.

You can't point out a valid source for any of the articles claiming memory swap isn't possible on the 64GB M1 chip, because there isn't one. It's just a 9to5 Mac article that everyone else took as gospel and parroted.

With that claim as well I assume you'll explain how 8 apps can run side by side in Stage Manager, whose RAM usage would exceed the device's 8GB of RAM, without using virtual memory. There's got to be a simple explanation, so I'll wait.

Look, if you read what I wrote yesterday, I never said that memory swap is not possible on the 64GB air. On the contrary I think it's possible from a hardware point of view. I just said you have no proof that it's implemented in software, especially as Apple themselves says it's not. I couldn't care less about what 9to5Mac or others said, so stop attributing what they say to me.
And the idea that an app uses 1GB RAM so 8 apps need 8GB etc., is pure speculation, you have zero proof of how much RAM is needed by each app, so it's just guesses.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Look, if you read what I wrote yesterday, I never said that memory swap is not possible on the 64GB air. On the contrary I think it's possible from a hardware point of view. I just said you have no proof that it's implemented in software, especially as Apple themselves says it's not. I couldn't care less about what 9to5Mac or others said, so stop attributing what they say to me.

If you ever looked into it at the time, every article about the issue refers back to 9to5 Mac, and their source was Apple's info and one app developer. There is to my knowledge no other independent source to any of this - it all comes from that.

Apple do not say memory swap isn't in the OS, they say that individual apps can use memory swap to request additional RAM beyond what iPadOS used to allow, except for on the 64GB iPad Air.

Stopping individual apps from being aware of memory swap and able request more RAM via it, is not the same thing it being absent at the OS level.

And if you look at Apple's statements, they claim Stage Manager running 8 apps at a time requires it. So they are essentially stating it.

And the idea that an app uses 1GB RAM so 8 apps need 8GB etc., is pure speculation, you have zero proof of how much RAM is needed by each app, so it's just guesses.

It's not pure speculation. It's easily obtainable information. As of iPadOS15, apps on an M1 iPads with 8GB of RAM could request up to 6GB of RAM. Apps ran one at a time back then, so 2GB was left over for the system.

In Stage Manager today you can run 8 of those apps side by side, so even if they're not all requesting 6GB of RAM each, it's still absolutely possible to use up 8GB of RAM if you want to.

 

[Digitalguy]

If you ever looked into it at the time, every article about the issue refers back to 9to5 Mac, and their source was Apple's info and one app developer. There is to my knowledge no other independent source to any of this - it all comes from that.

Apple do not say memory swap isn't in the OS, they say that individual apps can use memory swap to request additional RAM beyond what iPadOS used to allow, except for on the 64GB iPad Air.

Stopping individual apps from being aware of memory swap and able request more RAM via it, is not the same thing it being absent at the OS level.

And if you look at Apple's statements, they claim Stage Manager running 8 apps at a time requires it. So they are essentially stating it.



It's not pure speculation. It's easily obtainable information. As of iPadOS15, apps on an M1 iPads with 8GB of RAM could request up to 6GB of RAM. Apps ran one at a time back then, so 2GB was left over for the system.

In Stage Manager today you can run 8 of those apps side by side, so even if they're not all requesting 6GB of RAM each, it's still absolutely possible to use up 8GB of RAM if you want to.

The only truth is that you, or anyone outiside Apple, don't know how memory is managed in iPadOS. Apple is not giving any information and nowhere they say you need swap memory to run 8 apps since the air 5 can and it does not use swap base on the official statement. Anything else is just guesses.

 

[teh_hunterer]

The only truth is that you, or anyone outiside Apple, don't know how memory is managed in iPadOS. Apple is not giving any information and nowhere they say you need swap memory to run 8 apps since the air 5 can and it does not use swap base on the official statement. Anything else is just guesses.

As I pointed out, the official statement is that individual apps cannot use memory swap to use more RAM than the default allotment in iPadOS. That is entirely different to saying memory swap is not used on the iPad at all. This is a little complicated but it's not that hard to understand if you take the time to think about it.

Apple's official statement is that memory swap is required for Stage Manager to run 8 apps side by side (hence the lack of external monitor support with stage manager on A12 based iPad Pros).

We know what the RAM limits are in iPadOS because the info is made readily available by Apple to developers and is reported on by MacRumors - that's where I got the numbers from.

I'm not guessing - you're deliberately refusing to consider information.

 

[Digitalguy]

As I pointed out, the official statement is that individual apps cannot use memory swap to use more RAM than the default allotment in iPadOS. That is entirely different to saying memory swap is not used on the iPad at all. This is a little complicated but it's not that hard to understand if you take the time to think about it.

Apple's official statement is that memory swap is required for Stage Manager to run 8 apps side by side (hence the lack of external monitor support with stage manager on A12 based iPad Pros).

We know what the RAM limits are in iPadOS because the info is made readily available by Apple to developers and is reported on by MacRumors - that's where I got the numbers from.

I'm not guessing - you're deliberately refusing to consider information.

RAM limits and RAM management are 2 different things. And the fact that the air 5 64GB can run 8 apps without memory swap just proves that what you said is wrong, regardless of how you try to phrase it.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

$130 CAD from Amazon. Solid reviews, nothing to lose to try out. 1/3 the price of the apple one. Better materials here with harder TPU plastic that doesn't suck in dust.

View attachment 2189733

How about that keyboard....

Got a model number? and will it work for the 10th gen?

 

[DeepSix]

How about that keyboard....

Got a model number? and will it work for the 10th gen?

Looks cool. Mind telling us which brand/model this is?

HOU Slim Keyboard Case. I don't see anything for 10th gen ipad but I would double check.​

 

[Digitalguy]

HOU Slim Keyboard Case. I don't see anything for 10th gen ipad but I would double check.​

It would be great to see a direct comparison with the Magic keyboard, especially when it comes to the trackpad and bluetooth. Could be a very appealing alternative. I guess the magnets might not work for the 10th gen...

 

[DeepSix]

It would be great to see a direct comparison with the Magic keyboard, especially when it comes to the trackpad and bluetooth. Could be a very appealing alternative. I guess the magnets might not work for the 10th gen...

No hands on experience here with the MKB but this HOU board looks like a great alternative for a fraction of the price. It's lighter than MKB but the base is thicker but more durable with better materials that don't attract oils and stains. Many users who have this board previously had or used the MKB so lots of direct comparisons. Many said they prefered the HOU board as it's as good if not better and 1/4 the price.

There is one reviewer on there who had hands on experience with MKB, Combo touch, the HOU and the ESR rebound case and said he preferred the HOU case to all of them.

Mine will be here tomorrow so I can post my thoughts then. I won't mind if the trackpad isn't as good as the MKB or the combo touch. I find that I prefer to touch the screen each time as it's easier.

 

[Digitalguy]

No hands on experience here with the MKB but this HOU board looks like a great alternative for a fraction of the price. It's lighter than MKB but the base is thicker but more durable with better materials that don't attract oils and stains. Many users who have this board previously had or used the MKB so lots of direct comparisons. Many said they prefered the HOU board as it's as good if not better and 1/4 the price.

There is one reviewer on there who had hands on experience with MKB, Combo touch, the HOU and the ESR rebound case and said he preferred the HOU case to all of them.

Mine will be here tomorrow so I can post my thoughts then. I won't mind if the trackpad isn't as good as the MKB or the combo touch. I find that I prefer to touch the screen each time as it's easier.

Looking forward to your feedback!

 

[sdm1985]

3 weeks in after replacing my M1 MBA for iPP M2 11” - honestly it was the best thing I have done in a long time, obviously based on my personal requirements.

Looking forward to improvements in iPad OS 17, love the option of using MKB and touchscreen. Battery seems a bit erratic though.

A new MKB with customisable toolbar would be cool, and a port the other
side, a little dip to hold the pencil (so it’s secure in the case, or one port for charging and the other side to slide the pencil in. So much potential, I am not looking back at my MBA at all.

 

[teh_hunterer]

RAM limits and RAM management are 2 different things. And the fact that the air 5 64GB can run 8 apps without memory swap just proves that what you said is wrong, regardless of how you try to phrase it.

If you're really going to commit this hard to misrepresenting and selectively ignoring information, and not engaging with my actual points then there's nothing I can do for you.

But for the record, as has been stated maybe 5 times now, Apple's official statement is that the 8 app version of stage manager requires memory swap, thus their official statement is that the 64GB Air in fact does have memory swap.

Their only other official statement is that the part of memory swap where individual apps can increase their individual RAM allocation isn't available on the 64GB Air.

 

[Digitalguy]

If you're really going to commit this hard to misrepresenting and selectively ignoring information, and not engaging with my actual points then there's nothing I can do for you.

But for the record, as has been stated maybe 5 times now, Apple's official statement is that the 8 app version of stage manager requires memory swap, thus their official statement is that the 64GB Air in fact does have memory swap.

Their only other official statement is that the part of memory swap where individual apps can increase their individual RAM allocation isn't available on the 64GB Air.

You make Apple make official statements they never made just to try and make your argument stay afloat. This conversation on memory swap has gone on long enough, it's time to end it, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[teh_hunterer]

You make Apple make official statements they never made just to try and make your argument stay afloat. This conversation on memory swap has gone on long enough, it's time to end it, so let's agree to disagree.

That's called projection.

But yes, no point continuing.

 

[madat42]

Smart Folio is cool by concept but failed in execution. Rubber keys! Are you serious Apple? Lol. No backlit keys, I would never buy a keyboard with no back lit keys. This is 2023, not 1990, get with the times Apple.

As for light weight, this is what I find and this is why I bought another mini 6 yesterday. As light as a naked iPad Pro 11 is, it’s still no match to a mini 6 even with a thin TPU case on. Mini 6 is in a whole other league for portability and lightweight. You can hand hold it for hours and get zero arm strain, can’t do that with iPad Pro 11 even using it naked.

iPad Pro 11 is still a device that you’ll have and use on your lap or desk all the time because of its size. So because of that, the extra weight of the combo touch becomes a non factor. Even with no case, the physical size of pro 11 is just too big to be used as a handheld device. This is where the mini shines as that is what I consider to be a true handheld device.

It’s funny (and fair) that your argument can also be used re: IPP 12.9 vs 11. Also, there’s a not-so-secret society of Smart Keyboard Folio users that love the case for its practicality, durability, simplicity, and weight. Not perfect but it allows the iPad to be iPad. The Mini is pretty awesome itself.