iPad as a laptop replacement

[fw85]

I welcome you to make me a video of Stage Manager doing this. While I do like Stage Manager, DeX definitely has the better windowing implementation.

And here is Stage Manager on my M1 iPad Pro 11

While I could appreciate how DeX allows more freedom in what you can do in regards to resizing and window placement, I can't help but notice that it still looks a bit wonky and sort of.. unrefined?

I think a lot has to do with the fact that they're all just mobile apps being forced into various shapes and sizes that the developers haven't optimized for, or even considered in the first place.
Apple is really sitting on a treasure trove here for the tablet market, having a large library of app versions developed specifically for the iPad. This allows them to just behave way better in all the possible situations - regular screen, split view, stage manager, slide over - since they're designed to support all that.

Even DeX UI itself could be improved, for instance the toolbars on the top of app windows just take up way too much screen space in my opinion - and it does help shine a light on some of the decisions that went in when Apple designed their (more out-of-the-way) implementation. Or the way all app windows have to refresh one by one when you exited split view.
I think Samsung just wanted to shoehorn the desktop experience onto its portable devices - as closely matching as they could get it - but I'm not sure that's the best approach to this.

In terms of tablet OS productivity - I personally consider Apple having got the better idea with stage manager out of the two - if they can refine its quirks and inefficiencies! It could be as simple as allowing more apps opened per one stage, and opening them in the current stage by default when tapped (as opposed to having to hold shift + tap to achieve the same thing).

Though I'm glad it works out for you and that you're thoroughly resisting ecosystem-ification 🙂

 

[h.gilbert]

Does ipadOS have a system clipboard and clipboard history?

 

[Ludatyk]

Even DeX UI itself could be improved, for instance the toolbars on the top of app windows just take up way too much screen space in my opinion - and it does help shine a light on some of the decisions that went in when Apple designed their (more out-of-the-way) implementation.

Yeah, I’m hoping that Samsung adopts OneUI approach with the toolbar on top.

It could be as simple as allowing more apps opened per one stage, and opening them in the current stage by default when tapped (as opposed to having to hold shift + tap to achieve the same thing).

I think it was a design choice… it favors the traditional ”one app at a time” that the iPad is known for.

Does ipadOS have a system clipboard and clipboard history?

Well, there is no default or native clipboard manager. But you can find 3rd party clipboard managers on the App Store… I use Copied (no longer on the App Store) and Glady’s.

 

[bondr006]

While I could appreciate how DeX allows more freedom in what you can do in regards to resizing and window placement, I can't help but notice that it still looks a bit wonky and sort of.. unrefined?

I think a lot has to do with the fact that they're all just mobile apps being forced into various shapes and sizes that the developers haven't optimized for, or even considered in the first place.
Apple is really sitting on a treasure trove here for the tablet market, having a large library of app versions developed specifically for the iPad. This allows them to just behave way better in all the possible situations - regular screen, split view, stage manager, slide over - since they're designed to support all that.

Even DeX UI itself could be improved, for instance the toolbars on the top of app windows just take up way too much screen space in my opinion - and it does help shine a light on some of the decisions that went in when Apple designed their (more out-of-the-way) implementation. Or the way all app windows have to refresh one by one when you exited split view.
I think Samsung just wanted to shoehorn the desktop experience onto its portable devices - as closely matching as they could get it - but I'm not sure that's the best approach to this.

In terms of tablet OS productivity - I personally consider Apple having got the better idea with stage manager out of the two - if they can refine its quirks and inefficiencies! It could be as simple as allowing more apps opened per one stage, and opening them in the current stage by default when tapped (as opposed to having to hold shift + tap to achieve the same thing).

Though I'm glad it works out for you and that you're thoroughly resisting ecosystem-ification 🙂

Oh the lengths an Apple fan will go to(and I'm one) to defend their devices for the Apple gods

...even in the face of video proof, and others experiences. Guess it's kinda like politics. I see and experienced the exact opposite of what you did, and I have the devices in my hand. After over 30 years of Apple, I have plenty of love, affection, and emotion for them...but as I said earlier...I am a tech/nerd that just simply loves tech, especially tech that is useful and fun to me. Not trying to trash Apple, as that will never happen. Just expressing excitement for my new tech discoveries. I also have the same feelings for MS(I know), and have been using their products for 40 years now. My excitement towards technology that is new to me comes naturally. Been using Samsung Android/One UI/DeX for two weeks now, and after 14 years with iPads and 20 years with iPhone...I can see and appreciate the differences as well as the similarities. I am seeing and experiencing functionality and abilities with the Samsung Android experience that I like better, so I'm going to give it the same shot I've given all other tech I've used. I won't try to convince others here to use it or that it is better, but I will relate my observations and experiences along this new journey of mine.

 

[Kal Madda]

Oh the lengths an Apple fan will go to(and I'm one) to defend their devices from the Apple gods View attachment 2393646 ...even in the face of video proof, and others experiences.

I think this is a subjective thing, video isn’t “proof” that one is better than the other to all, because some have different preferences and things they value more in a windowing system. I know that the iPad’s minimal toolbar is one of the things I like the most about Stage Manager. It works equally well for Mac and Windows users, because the windowing buttons are centered vs being to the left or the right, and the button is fairly small, rather than the large buttons that would use up more room if they hadn’t wisely chosen to incorporate the buttons into one menu. I prefer the Stage Manager approach.

 

[Ludatyk]

I think this is a subjective thing, video isn’t “proof” that one is better than the other to all, because some have different preferences and things they value more in a windowing system.

This! I’ve been around these forums long enough to know… that it’s annoying when folks claim that x is better than y because of this.

When in reality it’s more to do with the preferences of that individual… folks come into this thread to bash the iPad because of some feature set is missing. But ignore all the other areas that the iPad has the advantage, that’s why I think the “one is better than the other” discussions are unnecessary.

Because there’s pros and cons to each device along with certain deal breakers that people just can‘t get past regardless of how useful the product is.

 

[fw85]

Oh the lengths an Apple fan will go to(and I'm one) to defend their devices from the Apple gods View attachment 2393646 ...even in the face of video proof, and others experiences.

I'm not trying to defend any device here, just here to subjectively ponder on design decisions and possible improvements.
Show a video to 10 different people and they'll tell you 10 different observations, all valid to them in their own right.

The fact that iPadOS is far from perfect and needs more dev investment from Apple's side is clear - it certainly feels like it's been on much lower priority than the device deserves.
Though that does not change my preferred approach to a tablet OS - which is, fundamentally, to try and perfect something inbetween a touch-first mobile experience and a desktop workflow. Stage Manager on iPadOS does strike a fair balance at just that, despite its current flaws.
I've been stuck in the desktop workflow paradigm for long enough to also understand why it's not the practical approach to (most) computing needs anymore - in light of mobile computing platforms, SaaS solutions and cloud based workflows.

DeX is trying to emulate a traditional desktop experience 1:1, hence the name, and shoehorn that onto mobile devices (with mobile app versions).
And as long as it works for some people, there's a place for it and that's fine.
It's just not for me.

 

[Webcat86]

This! I’ve been around these forums long enough to know… that it’s annoying when folks claim that x is better than y because of this.

When in reality it’s more to do with the preferences of that individual… folks come into this thread to bash the iPad because of some feature set is missing. But ignore all the other areas that the iPad has the advantage, that’s why I think the “one is better than the other” discussions are unnecessary.

Because there’s pros and cons to each device along with certain deal breakers that people just can‘t get past regardless of how useful the product is.

It reminds me of the "Apple doesn't innovate anymore" when in reality Apple is innovating almost constantly — just in ways that are either more subtle or that person doesn't care about.

Anyone want to tell me that Apple's foray into finance with privacy was not innovative? The silicon chips? Handoff, Universal Control, Sidecar, the magic of copying from your iPhone and pasting into your Mac?

That's where a lot of the utility is for me. I like the iPad for what it is, and don't particularly care that it doesn't run MacOS, but it's vastly more useful for me to have this unparalleled interplay between my devices.

 

[DeepSix]

Oh the lengths an Apple fan will go to(and I'm one) to defend their devices from the Apple gods View attachment 2393646 ...even in the face of video proof, and others experiences. Guess it's kinda like politics. I see and experienced the exact opposite of what you did, and I have the devices in my hand. After over 30 years of Apple, I have plenty of love, affection, and emotion for them...but as I said earlier...I am a tech/nerd that just simply loves tech, especially tech that is useful and fun to me. Not trying to trash Apple, as that will never happen. Just expressing excitement for my new tech discoveries. I also have the same feelings for MS(I know), and have been using their products for 40 years now. My excitement towards technology that is new to me comes naturally. Been using Samsung Android/One UI/DeX for two weeks now, and after 14 years with iPads and 20 years with iPhone...I can see and appreciate the differences as well as the similarities. I am seeing and experiencing functionality and abilities with the Samsung Android experience that I like better, so I'm going to give it the same shot I've given all other tech I've used. I won't try to convince others here to use it or that it is better, but I will relate my observations and experiences along this new journey of mine.

Anyone who doesn't wear Apple glasses knows that the ipad doesn't have a true file management system. If they say otherwise, they are living in denial. What's next? ipad OS has full mouse support? Like come on. Samsung One UI is a million years ahead of anything ipad OS offers.

 

[Kal Madda]

Anyone who doesn't wear Apple glasses knows that the ipad doesn't have a true file management system. If they say otherwise, they are living in denial. What's next? ipad OS has full mouse support? Like come on. Samsung One UI is a million years ahead of anything ipad OS offers.

What isn’t “real” about it? I use it just about every day, and so unless I’m hallucinating, it’s a real file system…

 

[Ludatyk]

I just realized what's missing from Stage Manager for iPadOS.

The option to pin a window/app... for instance, I'm using Safari and if I tap/click Mail then it will automatically force Safari in the background. There should be "Pin Window" as a selection when you tap the "three dots"... this likely would help users if they want to keep a window/app in place regardless of switching to a different stage.

Perhaps, users could keep messages or music app pin to a corner. And Stage Manager on macOS... Apple has "Remove Window from Set," not sure why that's not included on iPadOS.

 

[fw85]

I just realized what's missing from Stage Manager for iPadOS.

The option to pin a window/app... for instance, I'm using Safari and if I tap/click Mail then it will automatically force Safari in the background. There should be "Pin Window" as a selection when you tap the "three dots"... this likely would help users if they want to keep a window/app in place regardless of switching to a different stage.

Perhaps, users could keep messages or music app pin to a corner. And Stage Manager on macOS... Apple has "Remove Window from Set," not sure why that's not included on iPadOS.

Good point.

And these are the sort of improvements that could just randomly make it into one of the monthly incremental versions of iPadOS without previous mention - though they'd go a long way in refining Stage Manager from just being a nice idea into an all around good execution.

And Apple should absolutely prioritize these refinements more than they've been doing, as the devil is in the details...

 

[Webcat86]

Anyone who doesn't wear Apple glasses knows that the ipad doesn't have a true file management system. If they say otherwise, they are living in denial. What's next? ipad OS has full mouse support? Like come on. Samsung One UI is a million years ahead of anything ipad OS offers.

iPadOS certainly has a limited file system but that's by design. This again comes back to Apple not trying to recreate the desktop experience with the iPad — it has been building its own take, from the ground up.

Now, nobody will deny that this isn't suitable for all buyers. There are people who truly need the more powerful file management system that a desktop OS offers. And if you're one of those people and Samsung serves you better, great.

But it's important to be mindful of the fact that lots of people prefer the iPad's more limited approach precisely because it is more limited. Most people don't scratch the surface of what Finder can do on a Mac, and for many people the app-first architecture of iPad is perfectly adequate and desired.

Let's be clear that it is still a "true" file management system, but it also more restricted than Mac or Windows. But, again, that is a) by design and b) preferable to a lot of people.

Take a look at the iPad marketshare in the tablet market. That's not an accident and it's not purely down to marketing. The iPad has been around long enough that customers know what they are, and are not, getting when they buy one.

And for the majority of people, if they wanted a laptop they would buy a laptop. Tech forums by their very nature represent people with a very different relationship with tech than the average member of the public.

 

[Ludatyk]

Good point.

And these are the sort of improvements that could just randomly make it into one of the monthly incremental versions of iPadOS without previous mention - though they'd go a long way in refining Stage Manager from just being a nice idea into an all around good execution.

And Apple should absolutely prioritize these refinements more than they've been doing, as the devil is in the details...

Yeah, Apple gave us nothing in refinements this year for Stage Manager. But I do think Apple Intelligence played a huge part in that.

There were probably refinements on the roadmap this year that were held back because resources were all tied up to AI (and it's still not fully ready). And rumors of it... it's going to be a slow roll out (sign up only), limited to a small group.

 

[bondr006]

This! I’ve been around these forums long enough to know… that it’s annoying when folks claim that x is better than y because of this.

When in reality it’s more to do with the preferences of that individual… folks come into this thread to bash the iPad because of some feature set is missing. But ignore all the other areas that the iPad has the advantage, that’s why I think the “one is better than the other” discussions are unnecessary.

Because there’s pros and cons to each device along with certain deal breakers that people just can‘t get past regardless of how useful the product is.

Me no bash Apple or iPad. Me love Apple and iPad.

Seriously, my iPad Pro is my all time favorite Apple device...and nothing will change that, even if I also like something else. Been defending the iPad Pro and iPad OS for far too long to just all of the sudden not. If I offended anyone sharing my excitement for a new technology and device, I apologize. I assure everyone that I will continue to defend Apple and iPad with my usual zeal...for it is still in my humble opinion, the best most flexible device Apple has ever made. I also will not try to talk anyone into dropping their iPad in favor of an Android tablet....because, why would I? I will share my opinions and experiences, because what other group of techies and nerds would I want to share it with?

When I got my first computer in 1985, it ran PC DOS. When I got into Apple in 1993, I was using Windows 3.1. I idid not give up Windows, I just added new tech. Same with my new Android device. It will not make me give up Apple and MS...just another tech to use. As my avatar says...I Like Em' All.

See! Side by side on the same table, and nothing exploded.

 

[Kal Madda]

Me no bash Apple or iPad. Me love Apple and iPad. View attachment 2393802

Seriously, my iPad Pro is my all time favorite Apple device...and nothing will change that, even if I also like something else. Been defending the iPad Pro and iPad OS for far too long to just all of the sudden not. If I offended anyone sharing my excitement for a new technology and device, I apologize. I assure everyone that I will continue to defend Apple and iPad with my usual zeal...for it is still in my humble opinion, the best most flexible device Apple has ever made. I also will not try to talk anyone into dropping their iPad in favor of an Android tablet....because, why would I? I will share my opinions and experiences, because what other group of techies and nerds would I want to share it with?

When I got my first computer in 1985, it ran PC DOS. When I got into Apple in 1993, I was using Windows 3.1. I idid not give up Windows, I just added new tech. Same with my new Android device. It will not make me give up Apple and MS...just another tech to use. As my avatar says...I Like Em' All.

See! Side by side on the same table, and nothing exploded.
View attachment 2393809

I don’t think he was saying you were bashing the iPad, I think he was talking about some others here in the comments. 👍🏻. I at least don’t think you’re bashing the iPad. 👍🏻

 

[DeepSix]

Me no bash Apple or iPad. Me love Apple and iPad. View attachment 2393802

Seriously, my iPad Pro is my all time favorite Apple device...and nothing will change that, even if I also like something else. Been defending the iPad Pro and iPad OS for far too long to just all of the sudden not. If I offended anyone sharing my excitement for a new technology and device, I apologize. I assure everyone that I will continue to defend Apple and iPad with my usual zeal...for it is still in my humble opinion, the best most flexible device Apple has ever made. I also will not try to talk anyone into dropping their iPad in favor of an Android tablet....because, why would I? I will share my opinions and experiences, because what other group of techies and nerds would I want to share it with?

When I got my first computer in 1985, it ran PC DOS. When I got into Apple in 1993, I was using Windows 3.1. I idid not give up Windows, I just added new tech. Same with my new Android device. It will not make me give up Apple and MS...just another tech to use. As my avatar says...I Like Em' All.

See! Side by side on the same table, and nothing exploded.
View attachment 2393809

Nothing wrong with supporting both. I'm in the same shoes as you. Even though I prefer Android for a lot of things including my phone. I still love my iPad pro 11. Even more so after I took off the combo touch case a few days ago and have been using it handheld a lot. Getting the S9 Ultra has changed my use case for my iPad.

I thought it would be too redundant to own both. But after using both and seeing how both fit into my lifestyle. I find there's little redundancy. I think you're the same way.

But if I could only choose one I would keep the Samsung.

 

[Retskrad]

Apple‘s platforms that are walled gardens (iPadOS, VisonOS, iOS) are all primarily for consuming content through. MacOS, ChromeOS, Windows and Linux are mainly productivity platforms because they have a desktop grade Chrome. The reason why ChromeOS is more of a laptop replacement than iPadOS is because it has the full Chrome browser which means all the Google suite of web apps and every Electron app is available and optimized. Google suite of apps are a joke on the iPad
and they’re terribly unoptimized in Safari.

If Apple dropped MacOS tomorrow and called it a legacy platform, it would be devastating because developers and Silicon Valley are still the reason why Apple isn’t seen as a toy company. Without the Mac, Apple platforms would be seen as TikTok machines.

 

[Kal Madda]

Apple‘s platforms that are walled gardens (iPadOS, VisonOS, iOS) are all primarily for consuming content through. MacOS, ChromeOS, Windows and Linux are mainly productivity platforms because they have a desktop grade Chrome. The reason why ChromeOS is more of a laptop replacement than iPadOS is because it has the full Chrome browser which means all the Google suite of web apps and every Electron app is available and optimised. I]Google suite of apps are a joke on the iPad And they’re terrible in Safari. f Apple dropped MacOS tomorrow and called it a legacy platform, it would be devastating because developers and Silicon Valley are still the reason why Apple isn’t seen as a toy company. Without the Mac, Apple platforms would be seen as TikTok machines.

I disagree. I’m very productive on my iPad, and I use Safari, not Chrome. For some, Chrome is essential for productivity. For many others, it’s not.

 

[colonelbutt]

Stage manager is very good. And for those using 13" or 12.9" and above, for me, its an essential way to use the ipad.

However, I don't understand the benefits to Apple, maintaining MacOS and iPadOS as different streams, with effectively 3 different windowing systems. Also the different usage between MacOS and iPad means two muscle memories for users of both.

My proposal: implement a new combined OS for both M class devices. The user can choose the MacOS interface on the ipad or the conventional one, and flip between as they want. There could also be an iPad mode on MacOS, which could be good to focus on games or presentations, say.

This seems so simple to me and a no-brainer, but perhaps I am missing something ?

 

[fw85]

Stage manager is very good. And for those using 13" or 12.9" and above, for me, its an essential way to use the ipad.

However, I don't understand the benefits to Apple, maintaining MacOS and iPadOS as different streams, with effectively 3 different windowing systems. Also the different usage between MacOS and iPad means two muscle memories for users of both.

My proposal: implement a new combined OS for both M class devices. The user can choose the MacOS interface on the ipad or the conventional one, and flip between as they want. There could also be an iPad mode on MacOS, which could be good to focus on games or presentations, say.

This seems so simple to me and a no-brainer, but perhaps I am missing something ?

It only appears simple if you disregard the fact that these are fundamentally different operating systems and the way they handle things behind the curtains is almost completely unrelated. The same goes for every piece of software designed to run on either platform, the system APIs used are different, as is the whole UI/UX paradigm.

In a nutshell, it's like saying - "I want to buy a small electric city car, but then also simply be able to convert it into a 4x4 diesel off-road truck by changing a few external body panels"

 

[colonelbutt]

It only appears simple if you disregard the fact that these are fundamentally different operating systems and the way they handle things behind the curtains is almost completely unrelated. The same goes for every piece of software designed to run on either platform, the system APIs used are different, as is the whole UI/UX paradigm.

In a nutshell, it's like saying - "I want to buy a small electric city car, but then also simply be able to convert it into a 4x4 diesel off-road truck by changing a few external body panels"

I thought they are both derivatives of FreeBSD with different windowing systems ? I understand the massive take outs of the IpadOS, e.g. no access properly to the file system. But effectively, on the M series Ipads, you just add touch control and you could install such a modified MacOS today on them !! That leaves integration of the IpadOS shell as an option.

I am not saying tis a trivial software project, but it seems strategically like the right thing to at least think about

I used to work a software development manager for large computational systems with big user groups, and spending on strategic software to replace multiple systems which have their own support stories is always cheaper in the longterm.

 

[Ultracyclist]

Stage manager is very good. And for those using 13" or 12.9" and above, for me, its an essential way to use the ipad.

However, I don't understand the benefits to Apple, maintaining MacOS and iPadOS as different streams, with effectively 3 different windowing systems. Also the different usage between MacOS and iPad means two muscle memories for users of both.

My proposal: implement a new combined OS for both M class devices. The user can choose the MacOS interface on the ipad or the conventional one, and flip between as they want. There could also be an iPad mode on MacOS, which could be good to focus on games or presentations, say.

This seems so simple to me and a no-brainer, but perhaps I am missing something ?

I’ve had the almost the same idea. These new devices are so much alike these days. We should at least get M-series apps. Apps that can be installed on both and have an option to switch in UI, from touch to point and click, depending on device and preference.

 

[bondr006]

Stage manager is very good. And for those using 13" or 12.9" and above, for me, its an essential way to use the ipad.

However, I don't understand the benefits to Apple, maintaining MacOS and iPadOS as different streams, with effectively 3 different windowing systems. Also the different usage between MacOS and iPad means two muscle memories for users of both.

My proposal: implement a new combined OS for both M class devices. The user can choose the MacOS interface on the ipad or the conventional one, and flip between as they want. There could also be an iPad mode on MacOS, which could be good to focus on games or presentations, say.

This seems so simple to me and a no-brainer, but perhaps I am missing something ?I’ve had the almost the same idea. These new devices are so much alike these days. We should at least get M-series apps. Apps that can be installed on both and have an option to switch in UI, from touch to point and click, depending on device and preference.

I’ve had the almost the same idea. These new devices are so much alike these days. We should at least get M-series apps. Apps that can be installed on both and have an option to switch in UI, from touch to point and click, depending on device and preference.

Yes. A few of us have commented multiple times on this, in this thread alone. There are a few implementations of this I would love to see, whether allowing us to just:

1.) install Mac OS,
2.) run it virtually, or
3.) just adding the desktop features to iPad OS and letting it run full Mac OS apps/programs.

All in all, I'd like to see tablet mode when handheld, and then desktop mode when attached to external monitor, keyboard, and mouse/trackpad. I really like iPad OS, so I would be in favor of #3 the most.

 

[Kal Madda]

Yes. A few of us have commented multiple times on this, in this thread alone. There are a few implementations of this I would love to see, whether allowing us to just:

1.) install Mac OS,
2.) run it virtually, or
3.) just adding the desktop features to iPad OS and letting it run full Mac OS apps/programs.

All in all, I'd like to see tablet mode when handheld, and then desktop mode when attached to external monitor, keyboard, and mouse/trackpad. I really like iPad OS, so I would be in favor of #3 the most.

I think #3 would be the best of those options. I think there should be interaction differences between iPadOS and macOS, because they’re optimized for different things. This doesn’t necessarily mean that iPadOS can’t incorporate more macOS features and functionality, but if the goal is to make iPadOS and macOS interactions identical, I think that would be a mistake. They’re not supposed to do everything the same, they’re different platforms with different interaction paradigms. A lowest common denominator approach wouldn’t make the best use of the respective platforms. I do think iPadOS could potentially run Mac apps. And I actually prefer iPadOS over macOS (even though I like both), so replacing iPadOS with macOS is a bad option in my opinion.