iPad as a laptop replacement

[Ludatyk]

Yes. A few of us have commented multiple times on this, in this thread alone. There are a few implementations of this I would love to see, whether allowing us to just:

1.) install Mac OS,
2.) run it virtually, or
3.) just adding the desktop features to iPad OS and letting it run full Mac OS apps/programs.

All in all, I'd like to see tablet mode when handheld, and then desktop mode when attached to external monitor, keyboard, and mouse/trackpad. I really like iPad OS, so I would be in favor of #3 the most.

We keep going around in circles over this lol.

Regarding #3. Adding full MacOS apps/programs removes the chances of devs building native iPadOS apps on the platform. We should be encouraging devs to build these apps... Apple did this with Logic and FCP, although it's not a 1:1 comparison.

And Adobe has Lightroom and Photoshop, they are all improving their apps... same goes to Microsoft with their Office suite. I understand that folks desire macOS capabilities onto an iPad. But gradually it's getting there... patience is key. And if patience isn't in the cards, stay on macOS... it's not going anywhere.

 

[Kal Madda]

We keep going around in circles over this lol.

Regarding #3. Adding full MacOS apps/programs removes the chances of devs building native iPadOS apps on the platform. We should be encouraging devs to build these apps... Apple did this with Logic and FCP, although it's not a 1:1 comparison.

And Adobe has Lightroom and Photoshop, they are all improving their apps... same goes to Microsoft with their Office suite. I understand that folks desire macOS capabilities onto an iPad. But gradually it's getting there... patience is key. And if patience isn't in the cards, stay on macOS... it's not going anywhere.

I think this is a good point to consider. If we do something like Catalyst in reverse, then many apps will just rely on this and never truly port over with a fully optimized UI and everything else. Now, to be fair, I think we also would get some apps that may never get fully iPad-optimized versions because the developer has decided not to support iPadOS. Also, to be honest, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on Microsoft Office to improve on iPadOS. I think Microsoft wants it to be a bad experience using Office on any platform other than theirs. Even the Mac version of Office lacks a bunch of features that they include in the Windows version. The Android and iPadOS versions of Office apps are likely exactly what Microsoft wants to ship for other platforms: an experience that’s just barely useful enough to be able to technically get away with using it, but painful enough that users will be pressured into using a Windows computer for Office. Microsoft also uses their “full Office apps” as a differentiator between the Surface Pro and Android and iPadOS tablets. As long as Microsoft thinks they have a chance of the Surface Pro being successful, they’ll probably continue to artificially hobble their apps on other tablets. It really is very anti-customer in my opinion, but at least there are good alternatives like Apple’s iWork suite (which is either nearly fully featured or fully featured on iPadOS) and Google’s office softwares like Google Docs (which is web-based, so is fully featured on iPadOS as well).

 

[Ludatyk]

Also, to be honest, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on Microsoft Office to improve on iPadOS. I think Microsoft wants it to be a bad experience using Office on any platform other than theirs. Even the Mac version of Office lacks a bunch of features that they include in the Windows version.

I think Microsoft will do what's best for them... Apple does the same with Android, companies tend to do what's best for their platform. That's the rules of the game.

But I still get updates from Microsoft... so, improvements are inevitable.

It really is very anti-customer in my opinion, but at least there are good alternatives like Apple’s iWork suite (which is either nearly fully featured or fully featured on iPadOS) and Google’s office softwares like Google Docs (which is web-based, so is fully featured on iPadOS as well).

I wouldn't call it anti-consumer... ultimately, it's competition. It's in Microsoft best interest to keep a fully featured Office on Windows computer... now, it would be different if Office is not available on other platforms.

If I'm not mistaken... iWork is only available natively on Apple devices.

 

[Kal Madda]

I think Microsoft will do what's best for them... Apple does the same with Android, companies tend to do what's best for their platform. That's the rules of the game.

But I still get updates from Microsoft... so, improvements are inevitable.


I wouldn't call it anti-consumer... ultimately, it's competition. It's in Microsoft best interest to keep a fully featured Office on Windows computer... now, it would be different if Office is not available on other platforms.

If I'm not mistaken... iWork is only available natively on Apple devices.

Perhaps “anti-customer” is too hard of language, but I’m just not counting on the good-wishes of Microsoft at this point. Many basic and simple features for Office on iPad have been requested for years and years, and Microsoft doesn’t seem to care. Even basic things like custom document templates are absent.

iWork runs natively on Windows, and it doesn’t strip a bunch of features out either. It doesn’t run natively on Android as far as I’m aware, but Apple also isn’t charging for iWork, or trying to advertise support for all platforms. I just think it’s a little odd that I have to pay a subscription to access Office on my iPad (because arbitrary screen size subscription requirements), but I still get penalized by Microsoft for using a non-Windows device.

 

[Retskrad]

Apple, in the process of defending their App Store model and looking like children in the process, has forced the iPad to become App Store-centric and crippled the platform in the process.

When you think about it, what positives for the consumer has this App Store model for the iPad brought to the tablet? What Apps have developers developed that outweighs not having desktop class browsers on iPadOS? The only app that the App Store model has brought to the table is Procreate and Goodnotes/Procreate. I don’t know about you but a desktop grade browser outweighs these apps by a long shot. Apple saying that their actions is about what’s best for the consumer is obviously not true.

 

[fw85]

I think Microsoft will do what's best for them... Apple does the same with Android, companies tend to do what's best for their platform. That's the rules of the game.

But I still get updates from Microsoft... so, improvements are inevitable.


I wouldn't call it anti-consumer... ultimately, it's competition. It's in Microsoft best interest to keep a fully featured Office on Windows computer... now, it would be different if Office is not available on other platforms.

If I'm not mistaken... iWork is only available natively on Apple devices.

Artificial limitations are the kind of toxic "competition" practice that you stoop down to if you realize the sad reality of not having anything else valuable enough to offer, to otherwise convince people to choose your product (naturally).

Apple has been guilty of this on several occasions as well, let's not pretend otherwise, but Microsoft has basically built their entire business on this premise.
I dare say that they have basically never come up with anything remotely innovative in their entire existence and got people to get used to and tolerate their junk products purely a) out of habit and b) realistically not having any other choice in several sectors.
And b) is not because their products were the best option for the given situation, they just pulled the right strings in the right places a lot better and made their products the only option.

So no, I don't expect much from Microsoft, they have never delivered a good user experience on just about anything, even when their motivation is in the right place.

We can only hope that someone gives them a run for their monopoly in the work sector, Apple being the most likely contender.

 

[fw85]

Apple, in the process of defending their App Store model and looking like children in the process, has forced the iPad to become App Store-centric and crippled the platform in the process.

When you think about it, what positives for the consumer has this App Store model for the iPad brought to the tablet? What Apps have developers developed that outweighs not having desktop class browsers on iPadOS? The only app that the App Store model has brought to the table is Procreate and Goodnotes/Procreate. I don’t know about you but a desktop grade browser outweighs these apps by a long shot. Apple saying that their actions is about what’s best for the consumer is obviously not true.

Putting the obvious financial incentives aside for a second - I think they also fear that without the App Store as the main and only source of apps for the iPad, the developers might feel disincentivized from actually coming up with dedicated apps for the platform, which are optimized for the touch-first UX.

Is it possible that in a scenario where the iPad can just run any Mac apps freely, developers just make Mac apps first and foremost, leaving the iPad to suffer the same fate as the steaming pile of garbage that is the Surface tablet line?
That is, being left with desktop class apps designed for a mouse-first UX and yourself trying to imitate a mouse cursor with your pinky just before you put the keyboard back on and never try to use it as a tablet ever again?

 

[Ludatyk]

Perhaps “anti-customer” is too hard of language, but I’m just not counting on the good-wishes of Microsoft at this point. Many basic and simple features for Office on iPad have been requested for years and years, and Microsoft doesn’t seem to care. Even basic things like custom document templates are absent.

I'm not sure if it was in this thread... but someone brought up an Excel feature that they "thought" was not available on iPadOS, then come to find out... they actually released the feature a couple months ago.

Now, I'm not defending Microsoft... but their core business is different from Apple. We criticize Apple on their closed business approach... the 8GB RAM on MacBooks and how much they charge for RAM upgrades. No company is absent from criticism.

So no, I don't expect much from Microsoft, they have never delivered a good user experience on just about anything, even when their motivation is in the right place.

No disagreement with you. My point was that improvements are inevitable... whether big or small, Microsoft has a presence on iPadOS.

Some devs only build for macOS or Windows alone.

 

[Kal Madda]

Apple, in the process of defending their App Store model and looking like children in the process, has forced the iPad to become App Store-centric and crippled the platform in the process.

When you think about it, what positives for the consumer has this App Store model for the iPad brought to the tablet? What Apps have developers developed that outweighs not having desktop class browsers on iPadOS? The only app that the App Store model has brought to the table is Procreate and Goodnotes/Procreate. I don’t know about you but a desktop grade browser outweighs these apps by a long shot. Apple saying that their actions is about what’s best for the consumer is obviously not true.

There are many positives for the consumer of the App Store system, greater platform security, less risk of fraud, greater app discoverability, easier updates for apps (unlike on Mac and Windows where it seems every third party app has their own separate way of updating that works dramatically different from the next). And the App Store system hasn’t prevented desktop-class apps like Davinci Resolve, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Affinity Photo, Affinity Designer, Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Lightroom, etc. from porting over to the iPad.

 

[Kal Madda]

I'm not sure if it was in this thread... but someone brought up an Excel feature that they "thought" was not available on iPadOS, then come to find out... they actually released the feature a couple months ago.

Now, I'm not defending Microsoft... but their core business is different from Apple. We criticize Apple on their closed business approach... the 8GB RAM on MacBooks and how much they charge for RAM upgrades. No company is absent from criticism.

I don’t criticize Apple for offering 8GB RAM on MacBooks. I think that’s perfectly fine. 👍🏻

 

[KPOM]

I think #3 would be the best of those options. I think there should be interaction differences between iPadOS and macOS, because they’re optimized for different things. This doesn’t necessarily mean that iPadOS can’t incorporate more macOS features and functionality, but if the goal is to make iPadOS and macOS interactions identical, I think that would be a mistake. They’re not supposed to do everything the same, they’re different platforms with different interaction paradigms. A lowest common denominator approach wouldn’t make the best use of the respective platforms. I do think iPadOS could potentially run Mac apps. And I actually prefer iPadOS over macOS (even though I like both), so replacing iPadOS with macOS is a bad option in my opinion.

I don’t think Option 3 is feasible. It wouldn’t be possible to let iPadOS “run full macOS applications” without putting in all the APIs that “full macOS applications” expect. Essentially it means the iPad is running macOS with an iOS shell on top, which Apple doesn’t want to do for many reasons.

 

[Ludatyk]

I don’t criticize Apple for offering 8GB RAM on MacBooks. I think that’s perfectly fine. 👍🏻

Fair enough, but base 8GB RAM has been on MacBooks for (roughly 8) years! The fact that iPhones share the same amount of RAM as MacBooks seems strange.

However, on the flip side... 8GB RAM on MacBooks is sufficient enough for most users.

 

[Retskrad]

And the App Store system hasn’t prevented desktop-class apps like Davinci Resolve, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Affinity Photo, Affinity Designer, Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Lightroom, etc. from porting over to the iPad.

That’s true but the amount of people who use those apps on the iPad are tiny compared to people who use Google suite of apps on web on a daily basis. Google Docs, Gmail, Drive all have iPad apps but they are primitive versions of their web variants and they are highly unoptimised when you use them in Safari.

This is an extreme example but it’s analogues to Apple deprioritising development of A-series chips to instead allocate more resources to their MX Pro and MX Max chips. It wouldn’t make any sense. But on the iPad that’s how Apple runs the platform and it’s complete backwards. They’re focused on porting Final Cut Pro while basic needs, like a functioning Google Docs in the browser, is left as a complete dumpster fire.

 

[Kal Madda]

That’s true but the amount of people who use those apps on the iPad are tiny compared to people who use Google suite of apps on web on a daily basis. Google Docs, Gmail, Drive all have iPad apps but they are primitive versions of their web variants and they are highly unoptimised when you use them in Safari.

This is an extreme example but it’s analogues to Apple deprioritising development of A-series chips to instead allocate more resources to their MX Pro and MX Max chips. It wouldn’t make any sense. But on the iPad that’s how Apple runs the platform and it’s complete backwards. They’re focused on porting Final Cut Pro while basic needs, like a functioning Google Docs in the browser, is left as a complete dumpster fire.

I don’t know if you’re aware of this or not, but one thing that may help you out is that you can run the web versions of Google Docs etc. in Chrome on the iPad. I don’t use Chrome, but they show up with the exact same UI on my iPad on Safari as on my Mac using Chrome. I hope that helps you out. 👍🏻

 

[jclardy]

We keep going around in circles over this lol.

Regarding #3. Adding full MacOS apps/programs removes the chances of devs building native iPadOS apps on the platform. We should be encouraging devs to build these apps... Apple did this with Logic and FCP, although it's not a 1:1 comparison.

And Adobe has Lightroom and Photoshop, they are all improving their apps... same goes to Microsoft with their Office suite. I understand that folks desire macOS capabilities onto an iPad. But gradually it's getting there... patience is key. And if patience isn't in the cards, stay on macOS... it's not going anywhere.

The issue with this is a simple one - it is just so nice to have a touchscreen. Not even as the primary input device, but as an option, as well as supporting Apple Pencil. And a more flexible form factor.

I bought a Surface Pro 11 and it really is "the dream" for me - minus running windows. It is a serviceable tablet (If Apple did absolutely nothing to macOS and just enabled touchscreens as an input method, it would work better than the surface does as a tablet - they have zero affordances for touch input in W11.) But other than that - it is a full laptop. I can run virtual machines, I can do work, I can run VSCode locally, I can use external file storage, I can run steam games, I can hook it up to my thunderbolt dock (iPad can do this, but without support for my audio interface.) Microsoft even out-Apple'd apple with their keyboard accessory. Super thin, attaches easily, and you can just detach it and use it wirelessly. Meaning you can have the tablet up on a higher surface while typing in a comfortable position.

The ultimate problem is that a lot of people just want a touchscreen mac, with the flexibility of the hardware of the iPad. iPad is a great tablet, but it is always going to be a secondary device for a lot of people. It's become abundantly clear that iPadOS is never going to be the future of computing as Apple refuses to open it up in any way, instead they are content with enabling specific use cases a handful at a time each year at WWDC.

 

[Kal Madda]

The issue with this is a simple one - it is just so nice to have a touchscreen. Not even as the primary input device, but as an option, as well as supporting Apple Pencil. And a more flexible form factor.

I bought a Surface Pro 11 and it really is "the dream" for me - minus running windows. It is a serviceable tablet (If Apple did absolutely nothing to macOS and just enabled touchscreens as an input method, it would work better than the surface does as a tablet - they have zero affordances for touch input in W11.) But other than that - it is a full laptop. I can run virtual machines, I can do work, I can run VSCode locally, I can use external file storage, I can run steam games, I can hook it up to my thunderbolt dock (iPad can do this, but without support for my audio interface.) Microsoft even out-Apple'd apple with their keyboard accessory. Super thin, attaches easily, and you can just detach it and use it wirelessly. Meaning you can have the tablet up on a higher surface while typing in a comfortable position.

The ultimate problem is that a lot of people just want a touchscreen mac, with the flexibility of the hardware of the iPad. iPad is a great tablet, but it is always going to be a secondary device for a lot of people. It's become abundantly clear that iPadOS is never going to be the future of computing as Apple refuses to open it up in any way, instead they are content with enabling specific use cases a handful at a time each year at WWDC.

I disagree. The iPad is becoming the primary computer for an ever growing number of people, including myself. I made the switch from a MacBook to an iPad around 3-4 years ago, and I’ve never looked back. I do have a Mac Mini, but it isn’t essential for me, and is definitely a secondary device. I still enjoy tinkering with macOS, but really the main thing I end up using the Mac Mini for is saving local backups of my iPad.

 

[Ludatyk]

The ultimate problem is that a lot of people just want a touchscreen mac, with the flexibility of the hardware of the iPad. iPad is a great tablet, but it is always going to be a secondary device for a lot of people. It's become abundantly clear that iPadOS is never going to be the future of computing as Apple refuses to open it up in any way, instead they are content with enabling specific use cases a handful at a time each year at WWDC.

Always? Never? These absolutes leave no room for probability... and if I'm not mistaken Tim Cook once stated

The iPad is the clearest expression of our vision of the future of personal computing

 

[fw85]

It's become abundantly clear that iPadOS is never going to be the future of computing as Apple refuses to open it up in any way, instead they are content with enabling specific use cases a handful at a time each year at WWDC.

If you take a broad look at the latest two generations of people now, mobile platforms such as iOS and iPadOS have already become their future of computing.
There's been a general trend shift in personal computing from traditional PC to mobile platforms. You no longer need to go sit behind a PC with a mouse and keyboard to accomplish maybe 90% of your computing tasks.
There's an entire generation of people, and more on the way, that may only first encounter a traditional PC workflow somewhere in their 20s, if at all.

I specifically mentioned personal computing, as that's one area where this shift is most noticeable right now. Something like workplace computing is usually a more conservative area, where radical changes take longer to manifest, as there's more risk involved.
Nevertheless, cloud computing (i.e. cloud-hosted workspaces) is likely the next step in this area as well, because they are easier to deploy, manage, secure and scale better to performance and other requirements in comparison with physical PCs that you carry around or station somewhere.

So what I'm saying is this - you got extremely capable and practical mobile computing platforms now, with most user data being stored on them, sofware solutions now transitioning into SaaS and cloud hosting - I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss all this in favor of demanding traditional desktop computing everywhere with the likes of Windows or macOS, as those are less relevant by the year.

 

[Ultracyclist]

I think #3 would be the best of those options. I think there should be interaction differences between iPadOS and macOS, because they’re optimized for different things. This doesn’t necessarily mean that iPadOS can’t incorporate more macOS features and functionality, but if the goal is to make iPadOS and macOS interactions identical, I think that would be a mistake. They’re not supposed to do everything the same, they’re different platforms with different interaction paradigms. A lowest common denominator approach wouldn’t make the best use of the respective platforms. I do think iPadOS could potentially run Mac apps. And I actually prefer iPadOS over macOS (even though I like both), so replacing iPadOS with macOS is a bad option in my opinion.

I think for this to be even considered Apple should kill a part of the lineup.
Make a clear cut in chips and dvices.

M series for iPad, MacBook Air and Mac Mini
M Pro series for MacBook Pro 14 and Mac Mini
M Max Series for MacBook 16, Mac Studio and Mac Pro
M Ultra for Mac Studio and Mac Pro

Lets be honest. Its borderline insane to have a MacBook Pro M2 and a iPad Pro M2 in the same lineup.
We don’t need more to choose from, but less and a more clear choice in what we want and need.

 

[Kal Madda]

I think for this to be even considered Apple should kill a part of the lineup.
Make a clear cut in chips and dvices.

M series for iPad, MacBook Air and Mac Mini
M Pro series for MacBook Pro 14 and Mac Mini
M Max Series for MacBook 16, Mac Studio and Mac Pro
M Ultra for Mac Studio and Mac Pro

Lets be honest. Its borderline insane to have a MacBook Pro M2 and a iPad Pro M2 in the same lineup.
We don’t need more to choose from, but less and a more clear choice in what we want and need.

I think it would be better to have more choices. By offering the MacBook Pro and iPad Pro with the same chip, people can choose the form factor they prefer without having to pay extra for a “Max” chip. And I think that’s also more beneficial for the iPad Pro as well, because then, while MacBook Pros would have higher spec configurations at the high end, at the low end, they’d have the same chip configurations. So developers would continue to lose the excuse that they can’t make good iPad apps because it “doesn’t have enough power”.

 

[bondr006]

From the Horses mouth....

Some things I agree with...Some I don't. What think you all?

 

[sparksd]

From the Horses mouth....

Some things I agree with...Some I don't. What think you all?

The larger widescreen on the Ultra was really attractive to me and why I bought one to try out. The high reflectivity of that screen was why I returned it and use the 13" M4.

 

[Aka757]

From the Horses mouth....

Some things I agree with...Some I don't. What think you all?

Saw this yesterday, he makes great points. The S9 Ultra seems like a great device, and he does a great job highlighting the positives and negatives of both devices without disparaging either, something which certain users on this forum should learn how to do!

 

[bondr006]

The larger widescreen on the Ultra was really attractive to me and why I bought one to try out. The high reflectivity of that screen was why I returned it and use the 13" M4.

I'll be putting a PaperLike style screen protector on mine, like I have on my M1 iPad Pro 11. I do a lot of handwritten notes and property sketching in the field, so it's a must for me. Not only feels more natural to write on, but cuts glare also.

 

[sparksd]

I'll be putting a PaperLike style screen protector on mine, like I have on my M1 iPad Pro 11. I do a lot of handwritten notes and property sketching in the field, so it's a must for me. Not only feels more natural to write on, but cuts glare also.

I don't like screen protectors so that wasn't an option.