Is the new Mac Pro a failure?

[NT1440]

Why does it have to be the newest and fastest? Why can't it be better than what is currently installed? Perhaps people are using Macs because their tools are on that platform. Or their customers are.

Again, a "pro" has to use the tools that are available to them. IF they aren't available to get the job done, one would think a "pro" would be concerned about getting the right tools to get the job done, not bitching and whining that a certain multibillion dollar company didn't cater one product specifically to their workflow.

I'd assume "pros" care more about getting the job done than how many PCIe lanes their computer has, but that's just my opinion.

 

[996085]

It seems like the only way you'll accept that we "understand" you is if we agree with you. That's not the way it works.

What do you mean by "We agree with you"?

 

[996085]

Again, a "pro" has to use the tools that are available to them. IF they aren't available to get the job done, one would think a "pro" would be concerned about getting the right tools to get the job done, not bitching and whining that a certain multibillion dollar company didn't cater one product specifically to their workflow.

I'd assume "pros" care more about getting the job done than how many PCIe lanes their computer has, but that's just my opinion.

Why do you think they're mutually exclusive? There are plenty of pros who are dissatisfied with Apples direction and voice their opinion to that effect while continuing to do their work with whatever tools they need. To pretend both can't be done is foolish. Are you foolish?

 

[AidenShaw]

in this thread (forum) you have a bunch of these guys:

View attachment 602857

...who think they're these guys:

View attachment 602859

...and Apple tries to sell them this:

 

[ixxx69]

What do you mean by "We agree with you"?

And what do you really mean by asking that?

You keep insisting that we don't get it, that we don't understand you, etc.

We get it!

The nMP is a failure to you. And it's a failure to a bunch of other people expressing similar sentiments, whether because the nMP doesn't have PCIe slots, or lacks dual CPUs, or lacks internal drive bays, or lacks GPU upgradeability, or lacks more RAM slots, or is too expensive, or not updated enough, etc., those are all legitimate reasons to think it's a failure for any given or potential user. And no one is denying your right to think that.

And those sentiments have been expressed thousands of times in a multitude of ways (the vast majority by a couple of dozen regular posters). But it doesn't stop there. They go on with constant derogatory remarks about the product, its abilities, and the people who like it.

What a handful of people are doing is challenging some of the reasoning (or lack of reasoning) behind the criticisms. And you may still think the nMP is a fail, and that's okay too. We're just trying to have reasonable discussions about it. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine too. But if you're just going to keep repeating the same complaints about it over and over again (which you've done in a number of threads now), what's the point? It just makes you a troll.

Where these discussions go south is there is "one side" that consistently hurls the uncalled for insults and derogatory remarks about the product and its users, and browbeating other users into seeing the nMP as a failure... examples of which should be self-evident through much of this thread (including the post above), and dozens of others.

The thing is, I (and many others) have pointed this out many times before, and I recognize it's as pointless as ever to try and have reasonable discussions with you and your ilk because you have no interest in being reasonable, you just want validation for your complaints. People who agree with you provide validation. You equate people who disagree with you as taking away your validation, and you don't like that. So you reiterate your complaints looking for further validation. And the loop repeats ad nauseam.

Cheers!

 

[996085]

And what do you really mean by asking that?

You keep insisting that we don't get it, that we don't understand you, etc.

We get it!

The nMP is a failure to you. And it's a failure to a bunch of other people expressing similar sentiments, whether because the nMP doesn't have PCIe slots, or lacks dual CPUs, or lacks internal drive bays, or lacks GPU upgradeability, or lacks more RAM slots, or is too expensive, or not updated enough, etc., those are all legitimate reasons to think it's a failure for any given or potential user. And no one is denying your right to think that.

And those sentiments have been expressed thousands of times in a multitude of ways (the vast majority by a couple of dozen regular posters). But it doesn't stop there. They go on with constant derogatory remarks about the product, its abilities, and the people who like it.

What a handful of people are doing is challenging some of the reasoning (or lack of reasoning) behind the criticisms. And you may still think the nMP is a fail, and that's okay too. We're just trying to have reasonable discussions about it. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine too. But if you're just going to keep repeating the same complaints about it over and over again (which you've done in a number of threads now), what's the point? It just makes you a troll.

Where these discussions go south is there is "one side" that consistently hurls the uncalled for insults and derogatory remarks about the product and its users, and browbeating other users into seeing the nMP as a failure... examples of which should be self-evident through much of this thread (including the post above), and dozens of others.

The thing is, I (and many others) have pointed this out many times before, and I recognize it's as pointless as ever to try and have reasonable discussions with you and your ilk because you have no interest in being reasonable, you just want validation for your complaints. People who agree with you provide validation. You equate people who disagree with you as taking away your validation, and you don't like that. So you reiterate your complaints looking for further validation. And the loop repeats ad nauseam.

Cheers!

Stopped reading right there as it shows there is no intelligent conversation one can have with you. Given that nothing more to say as you're unable to grasp intelligent conversation.

 

[ixxx69]

Stopped reading right there as it shows there is no intelligent conversation one can have with you. Given that nothing more to say as you're unable to grasp intelligent conversation.

And that folks says pretty much everything you need to know.

 

[996085]

And that folks says pretty much everything you need to know.

You didn't need to reinforce my point.

 

[Wild-Bill]

61.2% of voters seem to think its a failure.

 

[996085]

61.2% of voters seem to think its a failure.

According to the pro-nMP supporters their opinions don't count.

 

[iSee]

One thing I think many new Mac Pro critics are ignoring:

The old Mac Pro was a failure.

If it wasn't Apple wouldn't have had a lot of reason to develop the new Mac Pro. And if they had developed the new Mac Pro even though the old one was successful, there would have been no reason to cancel the Old Mac Pro.

I bring it up because it sounds like a lot of the new Mac Pro critics are pining for a workstation that is a lot like the old one. But the old one -- even updated -- failed independent of the new one and isn't coming back regardless of what happens to the new one.

 

[996085]

One thing I think many new Mac Pro critics are ignoring:

The old Mac Pro was a failure.

If it wasn't Apple wouldn't have had a lot of reason to develop the new Mac Pro. And if they had developed the new Mac Pro even though the old one was successful, there would have been no reason to cancel the Old Mac Pro.

I bring it up because it sounds like a lot of the new Mac Pro critics are pining for a workstation that is a lot like the old one. But the old one -- even updated -- failed independent of the new one and isn't coming back regardless of what happens to the new one.

What made the cMP a failure?

 

[Average Pro]

When the newMP was announced, I initially sighed as my external HDs were not TB2. I worried about the additional expense. However, when nMP arrived in stores it coincided with replacement time for several HD enclosures. The 4-Bay TB2 enclosures were very reasonable (all loaded w/ Red WD drives). I acquired a long TB2 cable and set up the drives on a book shelf. That single cable manages 5 enclosures - very sweet.

 

[Wild-Bill]

One thing I think many new Mac Pro critics are ignoring:

The old Mac Pro was a failure.

If it wasn't Apple wouldn't have had a lot of reason to develop the new Mac Pro. And if they had developed the new Mac Pro even though the old one was successful, there would have been no reason to cancel the Old Mac Pro.

I bring it up because it sounds like a lot of the new Mac Pro critics are pining for a workstation that is a lot like the old one. But the old one -- even updated -- failed independent of the new one and isn't coming back regardless of what happens to the new one.

A failure ? No, it certainly was not. It suffered from a lack of regular updating by Apple. The 2013 nMP came about because people were clamoring for an update, including a huge Facebook campaign.
The "update" the cMP had in 2012 was a meager spec bump, nothing more. Steve Jobs apparently wanted to kill it off completely at some point.
Apple has no interest in producing expandable, updatable machines anymore. Look what they did to the 2014 Mac Mini.
I think the nMP trashcan was just a way to appease some pros, before they kill it off for good.

 

[pat500000]

more like apple removed the capabilities they want..
they haven't removed the capabilities they need.

there's a huge difference between those two.

Hey, Flat...
Could you elaborate more on what you meant between want and need in this case? Removing what..and not removing need. Thanks.

 

[Max(IT)]

No, but whining about tool sharpening to the end of the work day and never getting around to actually using the tool sounds a lot like the mentality of this thread.

I work at a well known company that also has a magazine. There is a "trashcan" (the internal name of the pro here) on every desk. I haven't had one person bitch about the lack of X or Y, they just want their software on it, plug it in, and you know....get to work.

That is what happens in a normal working ambient...
That's different from a forum ... thus all the whining here.

Again, a "pro" has to use the tools that are available to them. IF they aren't available to get the job done, one would think a "pro" would be concerned about getting the right tools to get the job done, not bitching and whining that a certain multibillion dollar company didn't cater one product specifically to their workflow.

I'd assume "pros" care more about getting the job done than how many PCIe lanes their computer has, but that's just my opinion.

I think most of the "pros" don't care at all at what's inside their computer.

According to the pro-nMP supporters their opinions don't count.

I'd like to know how many of those 62% actually are Mac Pro users or even in the market segment at which the Mac Pro is targeted .... I bet less than 5%

 

[edanuff]

What made the cMP a failure?

To Apple? Insufficient units sold.

 

[996085]

That is what happens in a normal working ambient...
That's different from a forum ... thus all the whining here.

I think most of the "pros" don't care at all at what's inside their computer.

What makes you think that?

I'd like to know how many of those 62% actually are Mac Pro users or event in the market segment at which the Mac Pro is targeted .... I bet less than 5%

LOL! Here we go again...if you're not a pro user you have no place to offer an opinion...right? Never mind you would buy a nMP if it were basically a cMP with updated internals. Nah, that doesn't count...does it? Only "pro" users have the right to comment.

 

[996085]

To Apple? Insufficient units sold.

So the idea was to further limit the target market in the hope they'd sell more? With that said can you provide any supporting data for the insufficient units sold explanation?

 

[edanuff]

So the idea was to further limit the target market in the hope they'd sell more? With that said can you provide any supporting data for the insufficient units sold explanation?

It was reported that about a million or so cMPs were sold over the 6 years or so it was available, so not a huge number.

 

[flat five]

Imho every experienced user, pro or not, knows pretty well his computing needs.
If I remember well you have stated that you have bought an iMac instead of a nMP, because it wasn't suitable for you, for your reasons of course.

since just about every thread i participate in has people saying 'you bought an imac' in some form or another, typically in derogatory fashion.. i'm going to lay out the situation once and for all so i can link back to this post next time it happens.. it's not meant as some sort of point re:this particular discussion so skip over if desired:

for starters/background, 'my computer' is not a single item.. it's all the stuff related to computing that i use.. in 2013, i had a 1,1 and a 2010 core2 mbp.. my main application, the heart of my computing needs, is a 3d modeling/cad application(s).. CAD relies heavily on single core performance as most(!) of the mathematics involved are linear calculations and simply can not be spread out amongst multiple threads/cores.. for sales purposes however, i rely heavily upon ray traced renderings which benefits greatly from multicore processors..

i planned on buying a 6core/d700 config.. i had a 6month warning from my cad devs (mcneel) that they were going to be dropping support for OS X 10.7 and earlier (and the 1,1 doesn't support anything after 10.7)..
when the latest mac pro was announced, my rendering software developers (glare tech.) announced they were planning to completely re-write indigo using openCL at the core.. from a mac user pov, this can be interpreted as "apple says nmp is capable of up to 7tflops processing power.. well, we're going to give you the keys to unlock that potential"
so yeah, that's awesome news for me.. a 6core with d700 is going to out perform a 100+ cpu core renderfarm.. great.
except when august2014 rolls around and my cad software is weeks away from dropping 1,1 support (vis a vis apple).. i can't hold out any longer.. i must buy a new computer now which will run the latest versions of rhino.. unfortunately, indigo (renderer) was still only in it's early phases of the openCL rewrite.

that's the situation i was in.

what i decided to do.. what i truly feel was the best course of action.. was this:

buy a refurb iMac (RFB IMAC 27"/3.5QC/8GB/3TB-FD/780M-USA).. give it 16 more gb ram.. (about $2500)... to hold me over for a year or two

but-- there's more to it than just that.. the iMac isn't 'my computer'

using the money budgeted for the 6.1 and a new display-- use the rest like:
• early replace the mbp to a quad with 802.11ac wifi. (wasn't due for replacement till 2016)
• obtain larger cloud drive (well, 2.. dropbox and iCloud)
• upgrade my internet speed (200mbps)
• upgrade my router to 802.11ac
• buy wifi drives and move mass storage and non-cloud backup to them.


taking advantage of OS X's updated networking capabilities along with some improvements from glare.. and utilizing the improved speed of wifi.. it's incredibly simple for me to use the iMac and mbp as a single unit when rendering..
yes, they throttle upon prolonged usage but i have 8 cores instead of the 6 which were going to be in my 6,1.. i haven't nerd tested it but i'm guessing the 8cores throttled down are giving me something close to what i'd expect from the 6 cores of a 6,1..

my renderer couldn't yet utilize the d700s so they'd more or less just sit idle during the times i'd need them the most.. it was still a choice of multicore cpu usage at that time..

i spent approx equal amount of money on my current set up as i would of with the 6,1 and i'm getting approx equal performance..

the advantages of what i did however (at least as i see it) is that my infrastructure is modernized.. my laptop has been updated to a point where i can now do smaller renders during lunch break where as the 2010 just wouldn't cut it..

when the 7,1 releases.. and indigo4 releases.. then it will be time to sell the iMac and slip the mac pro back into the setup.. i'll have (i assume) better than d700s in it which will even further utilize the updated software.. moreso than if i had d700s sitting idle for the past two years.. the d700s will still run indigo great (and is doing so in the developer previews of the software).. it's just that 7,1 will theoretically do even better.

but there was no way i was going to buy a 6,1.. then a 7,1.. which would also coincide with the scheduled update of the 2010mbp..

that's just a poor plan and not the best use of computer budget.. i don't know- i really do feel like i made smart and well informed decisions when bypassing the 6,1 but apparently, it's something i should be ridiculed over around here.

Do you think that there are people complaining here on purpose, without any actual interest to buy a mac pro? Just trying to make some noise?

Why ? (And I really would like to know about it)

yes, without a single doubt, those people are here.

Why? well, last time i started talking MR_member psychiatry around here, i got a timeout and the posts were deleted.. i'll respect the forum rules regarding this type of talk and not get into it again. ; )

 

[flat five]

It is to those who needed / wanted the capability of the cMP. Why is this so hard to understand?

but isn't the cmp super upgradeable and better than nmp? i believe that's an ongoing spiel around here.. how great cmp is since you can spend much less and and have it outperform a nmp.

if you want/need cmp, why not use cmp?

or is that 'cmp is sooo upgradeable' theory starting to fall apart?

 

[flat five]

LOL! Here we go again...if you're not a pro user you have no place to offer an opinion...right? Never mind you would buy a nMP if it were basically a cMP with updated internals. Nah, that doesn't count...does it? Only "pro" users have the right to comment.

i don't really think anybody is saying that. i really don't.

but again, read the poll question..

Is the new Mac Pro a Failure for traditional Mac Creative and Professional customers

...


the way the poll has been posed then yes, the voters have to be mac creative/professional in order for the results to hold merit..

if you want pci slots or 5 hard drives inside your computer so you voted fail in the poll, that does not mean -in any way shape or form- that the new mac pro is a failure for creative pros.

opine all you like.. not a single person itt is trying to tell you to shut up (or whatever it is you're trying to imply)

but definitely take these poll results for what they are..

the results of this poll are the same as if the question was "do you like the nmp -- yes or no?"

 

[Max(IT)]

LOL! Here we go again...if you're not a pro user you have no place to offer an opinion...right? Never mind you would buy a nMP if it were basically a cMP with updated internals. Nah, that doesn't count...does it? Only "pro" users have the right to comment.

Have you signed up on this forum JUST to put the Mac Pro under a bad light ?
Because every single post you made in less than 2 months are about discouraging people about the Mac Pro ....
I can't understand your agenda (BTW I'm not going to buy a Mac Pro now or ever)

 

[filmak]

since just about every thread i participate in has people saying 'you bought an imac' in some form or another, typically in derogatory fashion.. i'm going to lay out the situation once and for all so i can link back to this post next time it happens.. it's not meant as some sort of point re:this particular discussion so skip over if desired:

for starters/background, 'my computer' is not a single item.. it's all the stuff related to computing that i use.. in 2013, i had a 1,1 and a 2010 core2 mbp.. my main application, the heart of my computing needs, is a 3d modeling/cad application(s).. CAD relies heavily on single core performance as most(!) of the mathematics involved are linear calculations and simply can not be spread out amongst multiple threads/cores.. for sales purposes however, i rely heavily upon ray traced renderings which benefits greatly from multicore processors..

i planned on buying a 6core/d700 config.. i had a 6month warning from my cad devs (mcneel) that they were going to be dropping support for OS X 10.7 and earlier (and the 1,1 doesn't support anything after 10.7)..
when the latest mac pro was announced, my rendering software developers (glare tech.) announced they were planning to completely re-write indigo using openCL at the core.. from a mac user pov, this can be interpreted as "apple says nmp is capable of up to 7tflops processing power.. well, we're going to give you the keys to unlock that potential"
so yeah, that's awesome news for me.. a 6core with d700 is going to out perform a 100+ cpu core renderfarm.. great.
except when august2014 rolls around and my cad software is weeks away from dropping 1,1 support (vis a vis apple).. i can't hold out any longer.. i must buy a new computer now which will run the latest versions of rhino.. unfortunately, indigo (renderer) was still only in it's early phases of the openCL rewrite.

that's the situation i was in.

what i decided to do.. what i truly feel was the best course of action.. was this:

buy a refurb iMac (RFB IMAC 27"/3.5QC/8GB/3TB-FD/780M-USA).. give it 16 more gb ram.. (about $2500)... to hold me over for a year or two

but-- there's more to it than just that.. the iMac isn't 'my computer'

using the money budgeted for the 6.1 and a new display-- use the rest like:
• early replace the mbp to a quad with 802.11ac wifi. (wasn't due for replacement till 2016)
• obtain larger cloud drive (well, 2.. dropbox and iCloud)
• upgrade my internet speed (200mbps)
• upgrade my router to 802.11ac
• buy wifi drives and move mass storage and non-cloud backup to them.


taking advantage of OS X's updated networking capabilities along with some improvements from glare.. and utilizing the improved speed of wifi.. it's incredibly simple for me to use the iMac and mbp as a single unit when rendering..
yes, they throttle upon prolonged usage but i have 8 cores instead of the 6 which were going to be in my 6,1.. i haven't nerd tested it but i'm guessing the 8cores throttled down are giving me something close to what i'd expect from the 6 cores of a 6,1..

my renderer couldn't yet utilize the d700s so they'd more or less just sit idle during the times i'd need them the most.. it was still a choice of multicore cpu usage at that time..

i spent approx equal amount of money on my current set up as i would of with the 6,1 and i'm getting approx equal performance..

the advantages of what i did however (at least as i see it) is that my infrastructure is modernized.. my laptop has been updated to a point where i can now do smaller renders during lunch break where as the 2010 just wouldn't cut it..

when the 7,1 releases.. and indigo4 releases.. then it will be time to sell the iMac and slip the mac pro back into the setup.. i'll have (i assume) better than d700s in it which will even further utilize the updated software.. moreso than if i had d700s sitting idle for the past two years.. the d700s will still run indigo great (and is doing so in the developer previews of the software).. it's just that 7,1 will theoretically do even better.

but there was no way i was going to buy a 6,1.. then a 7,1.. which would also coincide with the scheduled update of the 2010mbp..

that's just a poor plan and not the best use of computer budget.. i don't know- i really do feel like i made smart and well informed decisions when bypassing the 6,1 but apparently, it's something i should be ridiculed over around here.


yes, without a single doubt, those people are here.

Why? well, last time i started talking MR_member psychiatry around here, i got a timeout and the posts were deleted.. i'll respect the forum rules regarding this type of talk and not get into it again. ; )

I have to let you know that I didn't meant that "you have bought an iMac so you have no right to talk about nMP" on the contrary, with the current situation of nMP lack of updates etc it is very understandable that an iMac is a viable option for many users and uses, and it's not something you should be ridiculed over around here.

I'm really glad you have found a solution suitable for your CAD and other needs, even if it's temporary, you know better about your needs and budget.

Is your iMac an i7? if yes, you have 4 physical cores and 4 hyper threading for a total of 8. Now if you had bought the 6 core nMp you would have 12 cores in total and a fast turboboost when loading a single core.

Anyway thank you for your clarifications... Have a nice day...