Is the new Mac Pro a failure?

[ZombiePhysicist]

dude.. even if you don't want to say it again, would it kill you to at least link to the post where you've outlined? because i've read through the thread again and can not find it.

Yes it would, because you continue to ignore many other arguments and points, so let me be blunt, I don't like you and dont feel like lifting a finger to do much but point out your hypocrisy and bullying tactics.

See, that's your problem. Not my problem. Or apple's problem, or even the majority of others problem here.

 

[996085]

yeah.. it is a problem.
but it's your problem.. not mine.. not apple's.. not most of the people here.

Given the poll results are you certain you want to stick with that latter statement?

you're (not you in particular) doing nothing to alleviate your problem and instead, just complain about it.
it'd be much nicer to see you working towards a solution to your problem.

Other than voice my dissatisfaction what can I do about it?

 

[flat five]

I believe he stated one:

"Apparently wanting a better video card..."

You belittled it because doing this requires those archaic slots.

that's not a use case.. that's a wish.

a use case would be "i use my computer for ____ ...i need ____ to use it...
i can no longer use my computer for ____ because i can't use _____.

or smthng.

the fact that you may have to do things differently now does not equate to "apple has abandoned creative pros"...

 

[Max(IT)]

Given the poll results are you certain you want to stick with that latter statement?


Other than voice my dissatisfaction what can I do about it?

do you really think that 98 people on this forum owned a Mac Pro ?

 

[996085]

that's not a use case.. that's a wish.

a use case would be "i use my computer for ____ ...i need ____ to use it...
i can no longer use my computer for ____ because i can't use _____.

or smthng.

the fact that you may have to do things differently now does not equate to "apple has abandoned creative pros"...

Upgrading the video card is a use case whether you choose to accept it or not.

 

[996085]

do you really think that 98 people on this forum owned a Mac Pro ?

He said:

"not most of the people here."

Unless you've got something other than the poll his statement is incorrect.

 

[flat five]

Other than voice my dissatisfaction what can I do about it?

not much.

but what you shouldn't do (and you aren't) is make some sort of connection ala:

nmp has no pci slots Therefore apple has abandoned pros.
-----

i've asked multiple times in the thread already to call it like it is (which seems to be your, pl595, approach).. instead of taking some giant leap into another conclusion that's simply not true.
(like- the machine is no longer capable/acceptable for professional use)


----
[edit]
i mean, you can do these things all you want.. but you're going to face some arguments against that type of leap in logic.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

the fact that you may have to do things differently now does not equate to "apple has abandoned creative pros"...

By differently you must mean much much worse to the point of not being functional because getting 2 fast video cards connected via a thunderbolt cages is not performance competitive with the old cMP much less a modern system offering slots. And for the pros that need faster video cards, yes, it is an abandonment of features that apple has provided them for decades.

i mean, you can do these things all you want.. but you're going to face some arguments against that type of leap in logic.

Because not a single professional needs faster multiple video cards.

 

[996085]

not much.

but what you shouldn't do (and you aren't) is make some sort of connection ala:

nmp has no pci slots Therefore apple has abandoned pros.
-----

i've asked multiple times in the thread already to call it like it is (which seems to be your, pl595, approach).. instead of taking some giant leap into another conclusion that's simply not true.
(like- the machine is no longer capable/acceptable for professional use)

They've abandoned some pros...pros who need / want slots and / or internal disk expansion (and possibly optical media bays). As for doing things differently that might be acceptable if the differently didn't impose limitations. I mean if Thunderbolt is good for video why did Apple utilize those archaic slots for RAM instead of linking it through Thunderbolt?

 

[flat five]

Upgrading the video card is a use case whether you choose to accept it or not.

yeah.. i see what you're saying.

but still, i simply asked "what do you use your computer for?.. what software do you use? ..can you share an example of your work?"

as in
how do YOU use YOUR computer?

so far, i'm thinking he uses his computer to switch gpus and put hard drives inside it..like that's it
and i'm not entirely impressed..
there is a whole heck of a lot more impressive things which can be accomplished using a computer.

They've abandoned some pros...pros who need / want slots and / or internal disk expansion (and possibly optical media bays).

maybe maybe not..
but who are these 'pros'.. that's what i keep asking.
is it you? is it he?
or are you guys just spokesmen for the pros.. the pros who must remain in secret
?

what so bad about speaking of your own particular uses instead of blanket statements for 'the pros'.

the conversations would be entirely different if people spoke of their own usage.

As for doing things differently that might be acceptable if the differently didn't impose limitations. I mean if Thunderbolt is good for video why did Apple utilize those archaic slots for RAM instead of linking it through Thunderbolt?

i don't know why.. possibly some sort of technical hurdle or something on the intel side.

 

[996085]

yeah.. i see what you're saying.

but still, i simply asked "what do you use your computer for?.. what software do you use? ..can you share an example of your work?"

as in
how do YOU use YOUR computer?

so far, i'm thinking he uses his computer to switch gpus and put hard drives inside it..like that's it
and i'm not entirely impressed..
there is a whole heck of a lot more impressive things which can be accomplished using a computer.

Why do you think that? Is it too hard to imagine someone upgrading their video / hard disks over time as new technology is released? My primary computer, a seven year old PC, has seen its video upgraded twice...once to add an inexpensive video card so I could connect my DVI display and then a second inexpensive video card so it would be Windows 10 compatible. Just three weeks ago I added a USB 3.0 card. If I want I can pop the $50 2TB hard disk in this system. All upgrades which improve my computing experience with this system. None of them done merely to install and uninstall cards or hard disks.

 

[flat five]

Why do you think that? Is it too hard to imagine someone upgrading their video / hard disks over time as new technology is released? My primary computer, a seven year old PC, has seen its video upgraded twice...once to add an inexpensive video card so I could connect my DVI display and then a second inexpensive video card so it would be Windows 10 compatible. Just three weeks ago I added a USB 3.0 card. If I want I can pop the $50 2TB hard disk in this system. All upgrades which improve my computing experience with this system. None of them done merely to install and uninstall cards or hard disks.

that's great.

however, I think we're talking about two different things .

look at the question posed in the original post.. your points aren't in support of that question.. that's the question i'm arguing against. i've quoted that question a dozen times. that's what i'm talking about.

i'm saying i understand your gripes and wishes and whatnot. im not saying you're dumb etc for feeling the way you do.

what i'm saying though is to call it for what it is and don't make the leap in logic of 'i can't put the latest nvidia in nmp therefore the mp is a failure for creative pros"

that's the fallacy.. that's what i'm arguing against.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

what i'm saying though is to call it for what it is and don't make the leap in logic of 'i can't put the latest nvidia in nmp therefore the mp is a failure for creative pros"

that's the fallacy.. that's what i'm arguing against.

Right, because anyone that does real time 3D modeling has no need for a faster card or is not a pro. Anyone that wants 10GB ethernet is not a pro. Anyone that wants a fast video capture card is not a pro. They should all be happy with hamstringing such needs through thunderbolt.

 

[tralfaz]

I know, but the issue is that technology is largely relegated to Apple products since at this point few other computer makers have embraced it.

My point is that many business/professional folks are budget conscience, and external storage costs have to be factored into the total cost.

I think overall, the nMP has not been a huge seller for apple for a variety of reasons, but one major factor imo, is the lack of bays.

I'm sure there is a variety of reasons why the nMP is a difficult choice for many, but this is certainly one of them. And it would be something that could easily be fixed. If Apple offered a build option where the GPGPU, that many do not need, is replaced with a drive bay capable of housing 3 M.2 sticks, that could fix this issue. And it can't be that hard, OWC built one. And clearly if people are getting by with the iMac's single mobile GPU, then one slightly hobbled desktop GPU should suit those people as well. And do so without forcing them to sit in front of beam splitting mirror display.

But it will never happen. Everyone in this thread needs to realize that Apple is just not a computer company anymore. They are phone company first, a tablet company second, a services company third, and for the time being a computer company fourth. With gadgets and gizmos gaining ground.

Further if you break down the computer segment, they make laptops first, iMacs second, Mac mini's third, and way down at the bottom Mac Pros. At this point the MP market is an after thought of an after thought. The nMP was a sacrifice thrown to the hardware engineering team to give them a challenge, and an opportunity for Apple to wave their think different design flag in everyone's face, thereby showing everyone they still have the chops they had when SJ was less dead.

And there is the mental vise that Apple has itself in these days. They can't make anything simple and practical no matter how well designed it may be, for fear that pundits will harp that Apple doesn't have it anymore, or they have lost their "mojo", we new it was just a matter of time before Apple became ordinary. How much ado do you think there would be in these threads if Apple still sold the cMP and the nMP? Not a lot i expect, both camps would simply choose what suited their needs. But Apple couldn't do that, because it would definitely be the Mac Cube all over again. So Apple eliminated that possibility, leaving the nMP as the only option for a Mac with a high-end, OK medium end, GPU.

So here we are. Will something the size of the nMP eventually provide all the CPU, GPU, storage, and flexibility for just about every power hungry user out there. I'm sure someday yes. However that day still seems years away.

 

[flat five]

.......

 

[flat five]

I'm sure there is a variety of reasons why the nMP is a difficult choice for many, but this is certainly one of them. And it would be something that could easily be fixed. If Apple offered a build option where the GPGPU, that many do not need, is replaced with a drive bay capable of housing 3 M.2 sticks, that could fix this issue. And it can't be that hard, OWC built one. And clearly if people are getting by with the iMac's single mobile GPU, then one slightly hobbled desktop GPU should suit those people as well. And do so without forcing them to sit in front of beam splitting mirror display.

But it will never happen. Everyone in this thread needs to realize that Apple is just not a computer company anymore. They are phone company first, a tablet company second, a services company third, and for the time being a computer company fourth. With gadgets and gizmos gaining ground.

Further if you break down the computer segment, they make laptops first, iMacs second, Mac mini's third, and way down at the bottom Mac Pros. At this point the MP market is an after thought of an after thought. The nMP was a sacrifice thrown to the hardware engineering team to give them a challenge, and an opportunity for Apple to wave their think different design flag in everyone's face, thereby showing everyone they still have the chops they had when SJ was less dead.

And there is the mental vise that Apple has itself in these days. They can't make anything simple and practical no matter how well designed it may be, for fear that pundits will harp that Apple doesn't have it anymore, or they have lost their "mojo", we new it was just a matter of time before Apple became ordinary. How much ado do you think there would be in these threads if Apple still sold the cMP and the nMP? Not a lot i expect, both camps would simply choose what suited their needs. But Apple couldn't do that, because it would definitely be the Mac Cube all over again. So Apple eliminated that possibility, leaving the nMP as the only option for a Mac with a high-end, OK medium end, GPU.

So here we are. Will something the size of the nMP eventually provide all the CPU, GPU, storage, and flexibility for just about every power hungry user out there. I'm sure someday yes. However that day still seems years away.

re: the drives

the thing is almost certainly designed for two ssds inside..

i personally can't phathom the design team looking at the 6,1 and saying 'ok, it's done.. we haven't forgotten anything'

it's almost too obvious there's supposed to be another ssd atop the other gpu.

 

[OS6-OSX]

Seems as if it's half time at the ZombiePhysicist - flat five event.

 

[MacVidCards]

I thought it was really funny the other day when someone asked how they could run 6 @4K TVs from a nMP. In all honesty I had to tell them it would be much easier if they sold the trash can and got a cMP. So much for it being a machine for video professionals.

Last week I discovered a single slot GT640 with dual DP. Capable of running 2 @ 4Ks or 1 @ 5K each. So cMP could in theory run 9 @ 4K displays via DP and 4 more via HDMI. (3 @ 30 hz) or potentially 4 @ 5K AND 5 @ 4K AT ONCE.

In short, the cMP can run a MULTIPLE of the high res screens that the shinier, less capable one can.

 

[flat five]

I thought it was really funny the other day when someone asked how they could run 6 @4K TVs from a nMP. In all honesty I had to tell them it would be much easier if they sold the trash can and got a cMP. So much for it being a machine for video professionals.

i'm guessing you've seen this?

why not suggest the person just plug them all into the 6.1?
what am i missing?

 

[MacVidCards]

why not suggest the person just plug them all into the 6.1?
what am i missing?

Would you like the full list or just the top 10?

99% of 4K TVs are HDMi only.

Put your thinking cap on.

 

[flat five]

Would you like the full list or just the top 10?

99% of 4K TVs are HDMi only.

Put your thinking cap on.

I don't know. I don't even know the difference (or that there was one) between 4K display or 4K tv.

that's why I was asking. I figured you would know

(like for me- I'm limited to 2x27" display experience and haven't owned a TV in well over a decade.. probably 1998 or so)

 

[MacVidCards]

I don't know. I don't even know the difference (or that there was one) between 4K display or 4K tv.

that's why I was asking. I figured you would know

(like for me- I'm limited to 2x27" display experience and haven't owned a TV in well over a decade.. probably 1998 or so)

Not having even the slightest bit of info on something has never slowed you down before, go ahead and fill some pages. We all know it will end up with "real Pros don't need more than X number of displays" (where X = the number a nMP can run) so there is little point in me educating you.

Suffice it to say that a cMP can be configured to run storage at 4x the speed of a nMP, the cMP can be configured to run 2 or 3 times more displays than a nMP, the cMP can, in short, be configured to fit far more use cases and be a far more capable machine. But of course the nMP is smaller.

 

[flat five]

real pros don't even need displays.

 

[rawweb]

real pros don't even need displays.

 

[flat five]

View attachment 602826

huh? grasping at straws over what? i wasn't even arguing with dude or making any points or even sharing any opinions..
i asked him a question.. he returned with a stab.. i could either stab back, ignore, or say something completely meaningless as a means to say 'i read what you said but i'm not going to squabble over it'..

i'll argue you about this grasping at straws thing though.
what else you got?

(though for real-- this is the type of stuff that leads to threads being shut down.. not the other type of arguing as earlier blame was trying to be placed on me.. as mods around here like to call it-> off the rails)