Is the new Mac Pro a failure?

[linuxcooldude]

That's rather conclusory. You're defining the pro market as those that are price insensitive. That's at best, your own definition, assertion and opinion.

The pro market has always been filled with freelancers and independents for Apple, and they are quite price sensitive, so spending their own money on lots of expensive thunderbolt for that segment is a problem. Moreover, it's an ugly and inelegant solution.

And large parts of the pro market have voiced their displeasure with thunderbolt as a solution, actually, by this poll, the majority. In part as it's speed handicapped compared to PCI, in part because of expense, in part because it's simply inelegant when paired with the design philosophy of the very attractive nature of the trashcan which begs not to be tethered octopus like to lots of ugly storage bricks.

If price or budget are a concern there are usually cheaper alternatives, but usually at the cost of speed or other features. Its not necessarily Thunderbolt they are displeasured with but with the nMP in general not having more removable storage.

But that's my point. The old MP meant that you shouldn't have to buy such an array. Why spend 2x to 3x the price when other less solutions exist

Thunderbolt is not just for the nMP. In fact Thunderbolt came out years before that. People use Thunderbolt devices with MacBook Pro's ( iMacs, Mac Mini's for that matter ) for portable workstation environments which can be required for their work traveling from site to site.

And large parts of the pro market have voiced their displeasure with thunderbolt as a solution, actually, by this poll, the majority.

This poll was on the nMP and not Thunderbolt. Even if it were, it does not speak for the entire pro community outside the MacRumors forum.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

If price or budget are a concern there are usually cheaper alternatives, but usually at the cost of speed or other features. Its not necessarily Thunderbolt they are displeasured with but with the nMP in general not having more removable storage.

Correct in some cases. Not so for when they need some PCI video card or something like that. Thunderbolt is the only option, sub optimal though it may be.

Thunderbolt is not just for the nMP. In fact Thunderbolt came out years before that. People use Thunderbolt devices with MacBook Pro's ( iMacs, Mac Mini's for that matter ) for portable workstation environments which can be required for their work traveling from site to site.

Somewhat irrelevant to the topic, but you're quite right. You could add thunderbolt options to the new iMac which is proving faster than the Mac Pro.

Point is, thunderbolt isn't really that much of a 'pro' solution in a number of contexts. Even setting aside it's needless expense and ugly logistical implementation vis a vis the trashcan mac's aesthetics, it's too darn slow and cludgey for some of their needs. While it's fine for storage, it's not fine for real expansion options like new video cards.

But Thunderbolt's expense and it being the only avenue of expansion for pro type needs doesnt somehow actually make it a good solution for pro's; in this case, it's just their only least worst choice.

 

[maflynn]

Thunderbolt is not just for the nMP

I know, but the issue is that technology is largely relegated to Apple products since at this point few other computer makers have embraced it.

My point is that many business/professional folks are budget conscience, and external storage costs have to be factored into the total cost.

I think overall, the nMP has not been a huge seller for apple for a variety of reasons, but one major factor imo, is the lack of bays.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Somewhat irrelevant to the topic, but you're quite right. You could add thunderbolt options to the new iMac which is proving faster than the Mac Pro.

Considering many need additional storage for the nMP, it makes it relevant for this topic. In some instances the iMac is faster, in others, it is not.

Point is, thunderbolt isn't really that much of a 'pro' solution in a number of contexts. Even setting aside it's needless expense and ugly logistical implementation vis a vis the trashcan mac's aesthetics, it's too darn slow and cludgey for some of their needs. While it's fine for storage, it's not fine for real expansion options like new video cards.

But Thunderbolt's expense and it being the only avenue of expansion for pro type needs doesnt somehow actually make it a good solution for pro's; in this case, it's just their only least worst choice.

Yet professionals use it every day. This "Sort of Professional" context is not really go along with pricing, speed, bandwidth, that pros usually need. It goes with getting the right tools of the job that you need. Just because you may not "need" something does not make it any less then pro equipment.

 

[996085]

Considering many need additional storage for the nMP, it makes it relevant for this topic. In some instances the iMac is faster, in others, it is not.



Yet professionals use it every day. This "Sort of Professional" context is not really go along with pricing, speed, bandwidth, that pros usually need. It goes with getting the right tools of the job that you need. Just because you may not "need" something does not make it any less then pro equipment.

I think he was very clear when he said:

"But Thunderbolt's expense and it being the only avenue of expansion for pro type needs doesnt somehow actually make it a good solution for pro's; in this case, it's just their only least worst choice."

If you're livelihood is built on the Apple ecosystem you have no choice but to use Thunderbolt. Apple offers no alternative (despite there being alternatives available and having been offered by Apple in previous generations) and that is the problem.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Considering many need additional storage for the nMP, it makes it relevant for this topic. In some instances the iMac is faster, in others, it is not.

Yea, but bringing up that it's available on other machines outside the topic area of the mac pro makes it somewhat off topic was my point. Although, I guess I take it back, in that now, pro users are forced to choose an iMac if they want to stay on a mac platform, I guess you're right about that afterall.

Yet professionals use it every day. This "Sort of Professional" context is not really go along with pricing, speed, bandwidth, that pros usually need. It goes with getting the right tools of the job that you need. Just because you may not "need" something does not make it any less then pro equipment.

I think you're somewhat missing the point. I agree that pros actually use thunderbolt. The point is they are FORCED to use it as there is no other option if they want to stay on the mac. My point is it's not a good option, it's the only option, and being the only option does not endow it with inherent goodness for pros. They have no choice.

If I tell you to choose between crap sandwich and a giant douche, one being a lesser evil doesnt make it a good choice.

 

[flat five]

I think he was very clear when he said:

"But Thunderbolt's expense and it being the only avenue of expansion for pro type needs doesnt somehow actually make it a good solution for pro's; in this case, it's just their only least worst choice."

If you're livelihood is built on the Apple ecosystem you have no choice but to use Thunderbolt. Apple offers no alternative (despite there being alternatives available and having been offered by Apple in previous generations) and that is the problem.

there are alternatives to thunderbolt.. personally, i have no thunderbolt externals (other than display) but i have quite a few external drives. (two physical, two cloud, + the drives in my other computers are shared amongst the rest (3total internals)

802.11ac wifi is faster than fw800 which has been used by pros (and others obviously) on mac for the past decade.. when they did away with firewire, they replaced it with 3 alternatives which transfer at higher rates.. not 1 (thunderbolt, usb, wi-fi)

i get it that you probably should't depend on wifi for editing 4k on externals but other than that, you should be ok.. with 802.11ax (2018?), even 8k editing will be completely viable wirelessly.

idk, people seem to like complaining about wires and whatnot but for whatever reason, fail to acknowledge there are wireless solutions available today.. and will be getting better in the near future (like- netflix will stream 8k movies soon etc.. no reason you can't or shouldn't be using those capabilities in your work environment).

another thing re:wireless are the improvements in OS X regarding ease of connecting to networks.. all i do to join my network and have access to all data regardless of where it's physically stored is open my laptop.. that's it.
if i'm rendering on my iMac and want a boost, i open my laptop and click the network rendering button and i get four more cores crunching data.. i really don't think it could be any simpler at this point in time.


my point is that there's a general mantra of 'oh, oh.. apple took this away from me " ... but nobody seems to accept that more capabilities have been offered at the same time.. if you're insistent on thinking the way computers worked 10 years ago is the proper or only way to do things then i'm sorry, you're going to just keep griping the rest of your life.. things are moving forward.. not only by apple but all of computing.. another decade and the idea of plugging in to internal slots will have all but vanished from personal computers.. even plugging in to external slots is going to seem a bit archaic by then.

(also, i should add.. the physical drives aren't even on my desk.. one is coupled to my router and the other sits next to it.. completely out of sight / out of earshot).. my desk will become a bit more cluttered when i replace the iMac with 7,1 but that's just because of the nmp itself.. there aren't going to be a bunch of boxes/wires/etc laying about as some would try to lead me to believe)

 

[996085]

there are alternatives to thunderbolt.. personally, i have no thunderbolt externals (other than display) but i have quite a few external drives. (two physical, two cloud, + the drives in my other computers are shared amongst the rest (3total internals)

802.11ac wifi is faster than fw800 which has been used by pros (and others obviously) on mac for the past decade.. when they did away with firewire, they replaced it with 3 alternatives which transfer at higher rates.. not 1 (thunderbolt, usb, wi-fi)

i get it that you probably should't depend on wifi for editing 4k on externals but other than that, you should be ok.. with 802.11ax (2018?), even 8k editing will be completely viable wirelessly.

idk, people seem to like complaining about wires and whatnot but for whatever reason, fail to acknowledge there are wireless solutions available today.. and will be getting better in the near future (like- netflix will stream 8k movies soon etc.. no reason you can't or shouldn't be using those capabilities in your work environment).

another thing re:wireless are the improvements in OS X regarding ease of connecting to networks.. all i do to join my network and have access to all data regardless of where it's physically stored is open my laptop.. that's it.
if i'm rendering on my iMac and want a boost, i open my laptop and click the network rendering button and i get four more cores crunching data.. i really don't think it could be any simpler at this point in time.

my point is that there's a general mantra of 'oh, oh.. apple took this away from me " ... but nobody seems to accept that more capabilities have been offered at the same time.. if you're insistent on thinking the way computers worked 10 years ago is the proper or only way to do things then i'm sorry, you're going to just keep griping the rest of your life.. things are moving forward.. not only by apple but all of computing.. another decade and the idea of plugging in to internal slots will have all but vanished from personal computers.. even plugging in to external slots is going to seem a bit archaic by then.

What additional capabilities does the nMP offer over the cMP? To me the nMP offers less, not more, options. Why do you consider slots archaic?

 

[flat five]

What additional capabilities does the nMP offer over the cMP? To me the nMP offers less, not more, options.

you mean for adding drives / accessories?

thunderbolt, 802.11ac wifi, & usb 3

Why do you consider slots archaic?

they're geeky.. very geeky.. lots of geeks around here that like poking around inside a computer-- i get that. it's ok.. i'm not knocking it.

but i'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people do not share in that enjoyment.. they want something more user friendly.

but they're archaic by very definition..
very very few computers have pci slots these days.. there was a time when just about every computer (even laptops) had them.

 

[996085]

you mean for adding drives / accessories?

thunderbolt, 802.11ac wifi, & usb 3

I mean for whatever you had in mind.

As for your list because of the availability of slots the cMP can have all of those items you mentioned. Likewise those technologies could have easily been added to the cMP had Apple decided to do so.

they're geeky.. very geeky.. lots of geeks around here that like poking around inside a computer-- i get that. it's ok.. i'm not knocking it.

but i'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people do not share in that enjoyment.. they want something more user friendly.

but they're archaic by very definition..
very very few computers have pci slots these days.. there was a time when just about every computer (even laptops) had them.

Geeky or not they're useful. I just added USB 3 to two of my PCs because of the availability of slots. Likewise adding cards does not have to be done solely for geeks. Geeks can easily upgrade a non-geeks PC merely by adding in cards. For example I can upgrade my GFs PC with better graphics because I can plug in a new graphics card. She doesn't have to know anything about it.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Geeky or not they're useful. I just added USB 3 to two of my PCs because of the availability of slots. Likewise adding cards does not have to be done solely for geeks. Geeks can easily upgrade a non-geeks PC merely by adding in cards. For example I can upgrade my GFs PC with better graphics because I can plug in a new graphics card. She doesn't have to know anything about it.

Apparently wanting a better video card or editing 4K video on non-wireless connections isn't 'pro', because others that see themselves as 'pro' have different use cases, but best not belittle their uses, because they get sensitive, but when they belittle your use cases, that's ok. And that is not hypocritical at all and it's tough to see why someone might think so.

 

[flat five]

Apparently wanting a better video card or editing 4K video on non-wireless connections isn't 'pro', because others that see themselves as 'pro' have different use cases, but best not belittle their uses, because they get sensitive, but when they belittle your use cases, that's ok. And that is not hypocritical at all and it's tough to see why someone might think so.

how can anyone belittle your use cases when you won't even say what they are?

i don't care that you're refusing to outline your workflow and/or make a real world example of 'mac pro a failure for creative/pro customers'.. like for real, i don't care.

but you can bet your arse when it comes time to present your poll/gripes/etc to apple, they're certainly going to monitor/dissect your computer usage.. and you better have a pretty good example of how the nmp is hindering your capabilities compared to cmp if they're ever going to remotely consider putting slots and drives back inside the mac pro.. you do understand this, right?

regarding pros editing 4k video, here's how many, if not most, are heading:

why? because there isn't enough storage available inside the computers to continually create 1TB+ episodes.

 

[Max(IT)]

Because you say so, it must be so. MaxIT the last word in all things. Quite implicitly more than a touch full of yourself to make such a decree.

If over a hundred votes in a mac pro forum on a mac pro topic are statistically irrelevant, your decree is ever more so.

You are right, one hundred votes are not statistically irrelevant. They are statistically ridiculous.

I really think that MVC nailed it - you're spouting nonsense to get some replies to go over the line and get the thread closed.

And your shift key is still broken - have it looked into, because you look stupid if you don't use standard English.

the thread lost its meaning at page 2 or 3 ....

Just going to answer the original question on this thread...

Here is what I think, After having an iPad Pro for about 4 days, I quickly learned that I didn't like the bigger screen. It is very useful that I can run full sized iPad app side by side, however, I didn't have the need for such an expensive tablet. My Air 2 did just fine, and if I need a bigger screen, I have my Mac (15 inch). I understand some people would like a tablet that big and would find it useful, but for the average consumer, this thing is a flop.

the thread is about Mac Pro, not the iPad Pro ....

 

[996085]

how can anyone belittle your use cases when you won't even say what they are?

I believe he stated one:

"Apparently wanting a better video card..."

You belittled it because doing this requires those archaic slots.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

how can anyone belittle your use cases when you won't even say what they are?

You didn't pay attention to it. So I wont bother to restate it. And it's not about me, you belittle everyone here as a hater if they dont like the nMP. Of course, you don't get that, and start teaching us how to interpret 'hater', not able to face up to your own betlittling of others.

i don't care that you're refusing to outline your workflow and/or make a real world example of 'mac pro a failure for creative/pro customers'.. like for real, i don't care.

This is not the first time in this thread you have professed not to care or about the 'babbling' yet here you are. Your actions seem at odds with your words.

but you can bet your arse when it comes time to present your poll/gripes/etc to apple, they're certainly going to monitor/dissect your computer usage.. and you better have a pretty good example of how the nmp is hindering your capabilities compared to cmp if they're ever going to remotely consider putting slots and drives back inside the mac pro.. you do understand this, right?

You mean like they did with the cube. With ripping MP3s and music. With large screen phones. They did this in a timely fashion and without users complaining they were missing the boat, right?

regarding pros editing 4k video, here's how many, if not most, are heading:

why? because there isn't enough storage available inside the computers to continually create 1TB+ episodes.

Yea, because a giant external drive array sucking down tons of power and generating tons of noise are not at all at odds with the design ethos of the traschcan mac, and there are no use cases where some internal bays would have sufficed. So pros only need 1TB of internal storage or need more than 32TB of external storage, and all those in the middle are not legitimate pros with legitimate use case needs. You are quite literally terribly consistent.

 

[flat five]

Geeky or not they're useful. I just added USB 3 to two of my PCs because of the availability of slots. Likewise adding cards does not have to be done solely for geeks. Geeks can easily upgrade a non-geeks PC merely by adding in cards. For example I can upgrade my GFs PC with better graphics because I can plug in a new graphics card. She doesn't have to know anything about it.

that's cool.. and again, i'm not trying to say pci slots aren't useful or even anything along those lines.

i said (implied) they're old fashioned and not user friendly.

i mean, i feel like i'm just stating the complete obvious.. not an opinion etc.
if you want internal pci expansion, DO NOT BUY MAC.. why? because you can't buy a new mac with pci slots.. apple does not make one anymore.. every single clue out there should tell you they will never ever make/sell one again.. ever.

if you want to use mac into the future, either embrace the newer technologies/paradigms, begrudgingly use and pay for the newer paradigms, or don't use them.

but i can virtually guarantee no amount of griping will get pci slots back into a mac pro.. the line will discontinue prior to anything like that happening.

again, just pointing out the obvious.. whether or not you personally enjoy using pci slots is besides the point.. i completely understand that you and others like them. and that's fine.. but it doesn't matter.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You are right, one hundred votes are not statistically irrelevant. They are statistically ridiculous.

Almost as ridiculous as giving folks in a mac pro forum no weight of relevance.

 

[996085]

i mean, i feel like i'm just stating the complete obvious.. not an opinion etc.
if you want internal pci expansion, DO NOT BUY MAC.. why? because you can't buy a new mac with pci slots.. apple does not make one anymore.. every single clue out there should tell you they will never ever make/sell one again.. ever.

And THAT'S the problem. Apple took something many wanted to did away with it...and for what? Fashion? As for the griping well...I see nothing wrong with voicing dissatisfaction with their decision. Yes, Apple will kill the nMP before going back...Apple believes it's better to have a fashion statement over a more practical system.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

again, just pointing out the obvious.. whether or not you personally enjoy using pci slots is besides the point.. i completely understand that you and others like them. and that's fine.. but it doesn't matter.

It does matter to those that have invested decades of time and money in the platform, and it does matter that a significant portion of the pro market is and will continue to abandon the mac market. Apple leaned on this very core group once to save it's bacon, you never know when you might need them again. They may be surprised to find if and when they do need this group, they'll be found elsewhere.

And just because you say it won't happen, well that's a fair enough opinion. One that I actually have to say is more likely than not the case. But they have reversed direction in the past when enough pressure was applied. With bendgate. With large screen iphones. With ripping MP3s instead of focusing on their pet DVD projects. It has happened, and user feedback helped.

 

[flat five]

You are quite literally terribly consistent.

no.. i'm whatever you want me to be.

all your replies to what you quoted me as saying are, at best, hanging on by a single thread as a connection to what i actually said.. you're not even reading or trying to understand the things i write.. or certainly not responding to the points i raise.. like you're not offering any sort of counterpoints.. just bitching

 

[996085]

It does matter to those that have invested decades of time and money in the platform, and it does matter that a significant portion of the pro market is and will continue to abandon the mac market. Apple leaned on this very core group once to save it's bacon, you never know when you might need them again. They may be surprised to find if and when they do need this group, they'll be found elsewhere.

Unlikely as Apple is no longer about computers. Even Mac Rumors puts the iWatch forums before the Mac forums.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

no.. i'm whatever you want me to be.

all your replies to what you quoted me as saying are, at best, hanging on by a single thread as a connection to what i actually said.. you're not even reading or trying to understand the things i write.. or certainly not responding to the points i raise.. like you're not offering any sort of counterpoints.. just bitching

I'd say that's the pot calling the kettle black at best, as others here have quite easily seen 'my use case' yet you blithely continue to say I never presented one.

 

[flat five]

And THAT'S the problem.

yeah.. it is a problem.
but it's your problem.. not mine.. not apple's.. not most of the people here.

you're (not you in particular) doing nothing to alleviate your problem and instead, just complain about it.
it'd be much nicer to see you working towards a solution to your problem.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Unlikely as Apple is no longer about computers. Even Mac Rumors puts the iWatch forums before the Mac forums.

Well, I continue to be unable but to agree with this line of argument. The current trajectory does seem to suggest you're likely right.

yeah.. it is a problem.
but it's your problem.. not mine.. not apple's.. not most of the people here.

you're (not you in particular) doing nothing to alleviate your problem and instead, just complain about it.
it'd be much nicer to see you working towards a solution to your problem.

The poll suggests quite the contrary. In another 2-3 years, you'll likely be right. But at the moment, the majority have a problem with it.

 

[flat five]

I'd say that's the pot calling the kettle black at best, as others here have quite easily seen 'my use case' yet you blithely continue to say I never presented one.

dude.. even if you don't want to say it again, would it kill you to at least link to the post where you've outlined? because i've read through the thread again and can not find it.