It's about time someone sent Jobs to the "LOONIE BIN!"

[yellow]

Lenovo.

Someone here signed a huge deal with Lenovo. Now you aren't allowed to buy Dells, you HAVE to buy Lenovo.

I just got a T43 Thinkpad. Great hardware. Really starting out well. On boot, IT WAS FORMATTED FAT32 AND HAD TO DO THE FAT32->NTFS CONVERSION. Nice. Good stuff.

 

[jemeinc]

That's quite a claim. What evidence do you have to substantiate this? And anecdotal evidence from MR posters doesn't count.

I know MR posters aren't supposed to count, BUT... I question the quality of Apple hardware as well... Don't get me wrong, I'm not switching because of it, but I've had hardware problems with every single mac or iPod I've ever purchased except for my 1.25 GHZ eMac- which still gets used daily...

After my latest logicboard replacement, on my iMac G5 (iSight), I inquired about this with the Applestore genious and he said I was simply "unlucky"...lol...

I understand that PC's have other problems that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, and no way in heck would I trade their issues for mine- but the truth is that Apple does have some fairly significant hardware issues...

I'm not basing this on 1 or 2 instances either- as much as I love my Apple products I fully expect a hardware issue more often than not with them...

 

[Diatribe]

Who cares. Let him go on. I have little respect for people below 18 with an arrogant writing style like this who can't even spell definitely right.
And to sum it up: no. never. bye.

 

[mmmcheese]

Lenovo.

Someone here signed a huge deal with Lenovo. Now you aren't allowed to buy Dells, you HAVE to buy Lenovo.

I just got a T43 Thinkpad. Great hardware. Really starting out well. On boot, IT WAS FORMATTED FAT32 AND HAD TO DO THE FAT32->NTFS CONVERSION. Nice. Good stuff.

I have no experience with Lenovo...and I just assumed that the Thinkpads would continue on the same quality as IBM...when I mentioned that to some Chinese friends, they just laughed and said that they would never buy one because Lenovo is THAT bad. Of course any company can turn around and become a good one (Just look at ECS and SiS...both have gone from crap to high quality budget-oriented suppliers).

Anyway, this is just what I have heard.

 

[Diatribe]

I know MR posters aren't supposed to count, BUT... I question the quality of Apple hardware as well... Don't get me wrong, I'm not switching because of it, but I've had hardware problems with every single mac or iPod I've ever purchased except for my 1.25 GHZ eMac- which still gets used daily...

After my latest logicboard replacement, on my iMac G5 (iSight), I inquired about this with the Applestore genious and he said I was simply "unlucky"...lol...

I understand that PC's have other problems that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, and no way in heck would I trade their issues for mine- but the truth is that Apple does have some fairly significant hardware issues...

I'm not basing this on 1 or 2 instances either- as much as I love my Apple products I fully expect a hardware issue more often than not with them...

The thing is that you're right. Quality assurance at Apple has dropped. That is the problem when you want to produce cheap, want to get products out the door fast and on top of all that want to keep it all a secret.
Apple is in a predicament here because they want all those three things. The quality is a result of this.

 

[mmmcheese]

The thing is that you're right. Quality assurance at Apple has dropped. That is the problem when you want to produce cheap, want to get products out the door fast and on top of all that want to keep it all a secret.
Apple is in a predicament here because they want all those three things. The quality is a result of this.

Well, it seems like the industry as a whole is following this same trend. Everyone wants stuff cheaper, so to compete, companies are cutting corners. Long live capitalism!

 

[Diatribe]

Well, it seems like the industry as a whole is following this same trend. Everyone wants stuff cheaper, so to compete, companies are cutting corners. Long live capitalism!

The real problem is Apple's secrecy because of which testing is very hard and limited since they want few people to know. Where and at what cost it is produced is the other, you're right.

 

[jemeinc]

The thing is that you're right. Quality assurance at Apple has dropped. That is the problem when you want to produce cheap, want to get products out the door fast and on top of all that want to keep it all a secret.
Apple is in a predicament here because they want all those three things. The quality is a result of this.

I should qualify my statement by saying that I have no idea if every hardware company is suffering the same fate- I only use Apple right now, and have no plans of changing... It could be that all companies are going through this for the reasons you mentioned.. I never experienced any of these hardware issues with any of my PC's when I used them (other problems which were worse,IMHO), nor am I aware of any of my PC using friends that have the hardware issues I have... But that doesn't mean they don't experience them- I'm just saying that I have had major problems with nearly all of my Apple hardware...

 

[mmmcheese]

The real problem is Apple's secrecy because of which testing is very hard and limited since they want few people to know. Where and at what cost it is produced is the other, you're right.

Both are issues, but I think that cost cutting industry wide is the biggest contributor, at least when it comes to what the end user encounters. Machines may not be assembled as well as they used to because the lowest bidder is always picked. Support staff will either be reduced, or outsourced, causing longer wait times for support or stuff with less knowledge about specific products (since they become "jack of all trades" dealing with many clients with many different products).

Sure, less testing will let more bugs slip through, but what is really visible to the average user is not so much design flaws, but what they see first hand...the poorly assembled case (something is crooked, or creaks, or isn't as tight as it should be)...the hours of Zamfir just to get someone who says "I don't know...run the system restore disk."

I'd like to think that one day everyone will stop buying the bargain basement "deals" and spend a bit more money on premium products...but I don't think things will improve anytime soon...I expect it'll get worse before it gets better...

 

[yellow]

I know MR posters aren't supposed to count, BUT... I question the quality of Apple hardware as well... Don't get me wrong, I'm not switching because of it, but I've had hardware problems with every single mac or iPod I've ever purchased except for my 1.25 GHZ eMac- which still gets used daily...

Strange.. as a 11 year vet support guru for Macs.. and a 16 year owner of Macs, I have not had that many Macs I've had to have serviced. I do get the occasional lemon that simply have to have their **** fixed again and again. But that's like < 1% of them. But we never bought into the G5-plan. At least.. in a very limited capacity. We only ever purchased like 5 of them. I was just never convinced that they were ready for prime time. Holding off on the MacTels too.

 

[mmmcheese]

I should qualify my statement by saying that I have no idea if every hardware company is suffering the same fate- I only use Apple right now, and have no plans of changing... It could be that all companies are going through this for the reasons you mentioned.. I never experienced any of these hardware issues with any of my PC's when I used them (other problems which were worse,IMHO), nor am I aware of any of my PC using friends that have the hardware issues I have... But that doesn't mean they don't experience them- I'm just saying that I have had major problems with nearly all of my Apple hardware...

Well, one thing that the Intel move does give us, is more testing when it comes to processors and chipsets. Intel spends a lot more on validation than any other chipmaker in the industry. A few years ago the numbers were showing that Intel was putting 3 times as much testing time at each product than the nearest competitor. How many products used the chipsets for the G3/4/5 products? I don't think there were many, and I don't think they could afford as extensive testing or R&D compared to even minor forces in the PC chipset business (like VIA or the former ALi/ULi).

I suspect that serious performance issues and chipset bugs will be a thing of the past...but I think that software and build quality issues will be as big as ever. At least with software issues, you can issue patches....build quality issues are a whole other ball of wax.

 

[floyde]

Microsoft is a software company.

Apple makes most of their money on hardware.

BMW could switch to Microsoft's business model as well, but I don't think that would help them now would it?

I thought you had changed your clothes...

 

[FocusAndEarnIt]

Won't happen...ever.

 

[FF_productions]

I think I'm going to have nightmares tonight...

NIGHTMARE...
FOR 300 DOLLARS YOU GET A FULLY LOADED DELL DEMENSION DESKTOP RUNNING MAC OSX...

WAKE UP THE NEXT MORNING
Phew, it was just a dream...

 

[aquajet]

I know MR posters aren't supposed to count, BUT... I question the quality of Apple hardware as well... Don't get me wrong, I'm not switching because of it, but I've had hardware problems with every single mac or iPod I've ever purchased except for my 1.25 GHZ eMac- which still gets used daily...

After my latest logicboard replacement, on my iMac G5 (iSight), I inquired about this with the Applestore genious and he said I was simply "unlucky"...lol...

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Fortunately, I've never had any problems with any Apple product that I've owned besides a Pro Keyboard failure. And that was only because I spilled water into it.

Perhaps you are unlucky. Or maybe I'm just lucky. Either way, i don't think we can say for certain that Apple's quality control has declined unless someone shows us some hard numbers.

 

[Timepass]

People seem to forget the fact that OS X only costs 129 dollars ( i think) and well most revenue comes from the computers themselves

you also should relieze that the 129 is really what it cost for an upgraded. It is not the cost of new OS to put on a computer that does not already have an OS on it.

Reason we know the above for a fact is that the only legel computers that OSX is installed on are apple built computers that started with some other Apple OS and the ones you buy off the store is just to upgrade to a new verson.

Some thing that everyone seems to forget.

 

[eva01]

you also should relieze that the 129 is really what it cost for an upgraded. It is not the cost of new OS to put on a computer that does not already have an OS on it.

Reason we know the above for a fact is that the only legel computers that OSX is installed on are apple built computers that started with some other Apple OS and the ones you buy off the store is just to upgrade to a new verson.

Some thing that everyone seems to forget.

Then that would mean that brand new apple computers have a different version of OS X on it. Which they don't.

Because you can wipe a drive so it has nothing on it then install OS X from scratch (that is always how i do it) thus it is not an upgrade

 

[yellow]

Reason we know the above for a fact is that the only legel computers that OSX is installed on are apple built computers that started with some other Apple OS and the ones you buy off the store is just to upgrade to a new verson.

Err.. if I got a Mac with Tiger on it and went out and bought a non-edu retail version of Tiger for $129. It's not an upgrade. It's a full, retail, install.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

 

[dongmin]

The thing is that you're right. Quality assurance at Apple has dropped. That is the problem when you want to produce cheap, want to get products out the door fast and on top of all that want to keep it all a secret.
Apple is in a predicament here because they want all those three things. The quality is a result of this.

Thank you for making utterly unfounded, FUD statements. Apple is definitely no saint of a company but they are better than most.

https://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/11/20041105031356.shtml
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003May/bma20030530020201.htm
http://www.theacsi.org/second_quarter.htm#per

You should do a bit of research (i.e. google) before making such generalizations.

 

[jemeinc]

Either way, i don't think we can say for certain that Apple's quality control has declined unless someone shows us some hard numbers.

Well, obviously I respectfully disagree... Do I have hard numbers? No- other than the 12 out of 13 products I've purchased over the years... Honestly, that's really all I need to prove to me that there's hardware issues, but I do understand your point... For all of my troubles I know there's plenty of trouble free customers- I'm just relating my experiences and the conclusions I've drawn from them... I don't really put to much weight on "hard numbers"- I've seen the same #'s twisted in different ways to represent both sides too many times in the past to think they're the defining factor in much- but you have a fair point...

 

[Diatribe]

Thank you for making utterly unfounded, FUD statements. Apple is definitely no saint of a company but they are better than most.

https://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/11/20041105031356.shtml
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003May/bma20030530020201.htm
http://www.theacsi.org/second_quarter.htm#per

You should do a bit of research (i.e. google) before making such generalizations.

If you actually believe your sources are any better proof you're funny.
First of all the first two sources you list are from a consumer survey. First the problems with it being a survey rather than hard facts (yes I do consider surveys not to be hard facts) and secondly they are from 2003 and 2004 respectively.
The third source rates certain factors against each other which is a nice model but doesn't work quite well with Apple since Apple's consumer loyalty will off-set the other factors as will the fact that OS X is part of the equation (consumer happiness largely is based on it, which in return negates part of the unhappiness with the hardware). Apple doesn't quite fit in that model.
I am not saying that the consumer happiness is dropping but that the quality assurance is lacking since we're experiencing a lot of minor problems with Apple products lately, which could be avoided if they'd test more.
Anyway since you're so quick to get all wussy fussy about your favorite company my post won't probably matter much anyway.

Edit: Just to further enlighten people of the ways of "making" statistics/surveys... They say it is based on 39,000 readers but they don't mention how many of them actually currently have a Mac, which would drop the number significantly, making it unrepresentative, and secondly a non-monitored survey has less credibility too. Anyway I can make up surveys all day to reflect all kinds of stuff. Knowingly or un-knowingly making things look different.

 

[2ndPath]

you also should relieze that the 129 is really what it cost for an upgraded. It is not the cost of new OS to put on a computer that does not already have an OS on it.

Reason we know the above for a fact is that the only legel computers that OSX is installed on are apple built computers that started with some other Apple OS and the ones you buy off the store is just to upgrade to a new verson.

Some thing that everyone seems to forget.

People can argue against that by saying, that when you buy a boxed OS X you are not technically required to have a prior version of OS X and therefore it is not an upgrade. But it is not possible (or at least not legal looking at the hack to install OS X on generic PCs) to install OS X on a computer, which did not come with OS X.

So if you compare prices with windows lincenses you should always compare to the price for the upgrade and not for the full retail version of windows.

 

[QuarterSwede]

... So if you compare prices with windows lincenses you should always compare to the price for the upgrade and not for the full retail version of windows.

He's lost his mind folks.

You really can't compare the two with your logic ... BUT to prove a point you should compare OS X to XP Pro Upgrade since OS X includes full networking, etc. and there is no light version (or straight upgrade for that matter).

Win XP Pro Upgrade - Amazon.com $189 (not even retail price)
OS X - Apple - $129 (full retail price)

Am I missing something?

 

[2ndPath]

He's lost his mind folks.

You really can't compare the two with your logic but to prove a point you should compare OS X to XP Pro Upgrade since OS X includes full networking, etc. and there is no light version

Win XP Pro Upgrade - Amazon.com $189 (not even retail price)
OS X - Apple - $129

Am I missing something?

Thanks for the kind reply.

That is basically the point I wanted to make. The windows upgrade is still more expensive, but not as much as some people would claim. And I agree, that in general the comparison is difficult due to different release cycles, different new features,...

 

[QuarterSwede]

Thanks for the kind reply.

That is basically the point I wanted to make. The windows upgrade is still more expensive, but not as much as some people would claim. And I agree, that in general the comparison is difficult due to different release cycles, different new features,...

Oh sorry, I didn't quite understand what point you were making apparently.