It's about time someone sent Jobs to the "LOONIE BIN!"

[milo]

Err.. if I got a Mac with Tiger on it and went out and bought a non-edu retail version of Tiger for $129. It's not an upgrade. It's a full, retail, install.

But from a pricing standpoint, it's an upgrade version of OSX. The only people installing it are people who already own a mac that includes OSX (and paid for OSX included in the price of the mac). If they were to sell a version that ran on generic hardware, you should expect it to cost more than $129.

Well, obviously I respectfully disagree... Do I have hard numbers? No- other than the 12 out of 13 products I've purchased over the years... Honestly, that's really all I need to prove to me that there's hardware issues, but I do understand your point... For all of my troubles I know there's plenty of trouble free customers- I'm just relating my experiences and the conclusions I've drawn from them... I don't really put to much weight on "hard numbers"- I've seen the same #'s twisted in different ways to represent both sides too many times in the past to think they're the defining factor in much- but you have a fair point...

I don't put ANY weight on anectdote. ALL technology has a rate of failure. You can't make assumptions about the failure rate based on talking to a guy who had a failure. The failure rate could be one in ten thousand, and all the people with failures are going to post on the internet and complain. Do a search, you can find people complaining about failures of any product from any manufacturer online.

The only information that really tells us anything is hard numbers: what percentage of machines shipped have a problem, and how does it compare to other products.

 

[jemeinc]

I don't put ANY weight on anectdote. ALL technology has a rate of failure. You can't make assumptions about the failure rate based on talking to a guy who had a failure. The failure rate could be one in ten thousand, and all the people with failures are going to post on the internet and complain. Do a search, you can find people complaining about failures of any product from any manufacturer online.

The only information that really tells us anything is hard numbers: what percentage of machines shipped have a problem, and how does it compare to other products.

I understand what you're saying- and I'm sure Apple has a great "hard number" rating- if that's what you're judging by... But to claim my 12 hardware problems out of 13 items purchased doesn't mean anything is an overstatement... I know the value of my conclusions, I'm not delusional here- I also understand that every product inevitably has some problems, and that doesn't mean it's a lemon... I actually chalk it up to being a cutting edge company, and assume some problems come with the territiory when you push the envelope on design like Apple does... I'm not some guy on the internet bashing Apple's quality control- I'm an Apple user and probably always will be... But to say that 12/13 is just bad luck isn't realistic in my opinion- it's fair to say they have some hardware issues based on my experiences... They always make good on the issues though- I've had 2 macs completely replaced with an upgraded model at no charge to me, all other macintosh issues repaired quickly, and several iPods (of all generations) either replaced or repaired on the spot... I'm a happy customer- but yes, I believe Apple has hardware issues and no "hard numbers" in the world will change that opinion...Just my experiences...

 

[balamw]

Well, it seems like the industry as a whole is following this same trend.

Don't forget that neither Dell nor Apple really manufacture any of their computers in wholly owned factories, they contact out to people like Lenovo, Quanta, Asustek, Compal, etc... These guys buy standard components like hard drives along with custom designed parts like the mainboard and cases into the finished product.

I remember reading at one point that the same vendor (I think it was Asustek) was building both the iBooks and recent model Dell notebooks.

Yup.
http://www.engadget.com/2005/06/20/asustek-building-14-inch-widescreen-ibook-for-apple/
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20051101PR203.html

So why again would I buy an OS X machine made by Asustek from Dell rather than Apple?

B

 

[4God]

Seriously, who are you people?

It seems like most of the people at this forum have just become Mac users in the last few years.

You don't know Apple, at all.

Steve Jobs is the company. He is the vision. He rescued it from the brink of financial failure.

Hate to break it to you, he doesn't care what you think is a logical business model. Apple is a computer company first, and a software company second.

Integration, innovation and ease-of-use are the key to Apple's success. That means hardware. If you take away any of these tenets, the dream is lost. Sorry, but if you want a software company that is failing by the billions, check out Microsoft.

OS X will never be ported, as long as Steve is at the helm.

If you don't like it, get Linux, and a clue.

Very well put!

Let's hope ol' Stevie isn't going anywhere soon.

 

[steve_hill4]

Why would Steve decide after 8 years of preventing others using Mac OS, (starting by stopping the clone program), to switch to Intel chips and instantly let others use the OS? Apple have invested a lot of time and money in making sure the transition works. Why then just give up after a revision or two of the new hardware and let anyone install OS X?

It's interesting to see though. Just as John C Dvorak is telling the world Apple will switch to Windows, Dell again show how desperate they are to have OS X. They buy AlienWare to get good looking machines, now all they need is a good looking, well functioning OS. They could always give Linux a fair shot on some entry level machines to keep down costs and promote alternatives to Windows.

 

[dongmin]

If you actually believe your sources are any better proof you're funny.
First of all the first two sources you list are from a consumer survey. First the problems with it being a survey rather than hard facts (yes I do consider surveys not to be hard facts) and secondly they are from 2003 and 2004 respectively.
The third source rates certain factors against each other which is a nice model but doesn't work quite well with Apple since Apple's consumer loyalty will off-set the other factors as will the fact that OS X is part of the equation (consumer happiness largely is based on it, which in return negates part of the unhappiness with the hardware). Apple doesn't quite fit in that model.
I am not saying that the consumer happiness is dropping but that the quality assurance is lacking since we're experiencing a lot of minor problems with Apple products lately, which could be avoided if they'd test more.
Anyway since you're so quick to get all wussy fussy about your favorite company my post won't probably matter much anyway.

Edit: Just to further enlighten people of the ways of "making" statistics/surveys... They say it is based on 39,000 readers but they don't mention how many of them actually currently have a Mac, which would drop the number significantly, making it unrepresentative, and secondly a non-monitored survey has less credibility too. Anyway I can make up surveys all day to reflect all kinds of stuff. Knowingly or un-knowingly making things look different.

Now, you're getting silly. At no point, did I say surveys/statistics is DA TRUTH. I simply asked that people provide some evidence to back up their claims when they make blanket statements like "Apple's quality has gone down hill." Give me some 'hard facts,' as you yourself say.

The J.D. Power Survey is actually quite instructive because it's measuring one variable, via the same methodology, over time. And what it shows is that Apple consumers' satisfaction has gone up in recent years. Yes, I know, consumer satisfaction does not equal reliability but there is a connection. If reliability has indeed gone down hill so much in recent years, it would be reflected in consumer satisfaction (unless you claim some vast conspiracy and that all Mac purchasers are brainwashed).

And yes, I do think Consumer Reports surveys from 2004 and J.D.Power's surveys ARE more credible than your impressions and anecdotes.

P.S. In case you missed it: "Three months ago, in the September 2004 issue, Consumer Reports rated Apple as the #1 manufacturer for both technical support and repair history, for both desktop systems and laptop systems, based on their annual subscriber survey." Now, how do you propose to measure reliability if you don't ask people about their computer's repair history? And 39,000 IS a significant sample for a survey; 5% of that 39,000 is roughly 2,000.

 

[mmmcheese]

Don't forget that neither Dell nor Apple really manufacture any of their computers in wholly owned factories, they contact out to people like Lenovo, Quanta, Asustek, Compal, etc... These guys buy standard components like hard drives along with custom designed parts like the mainboard and cases into the finished product.

I remember reading at one point that the same vendor (I think it was Asustek) was building both the iBooks and recent model Dell notebooks.

Yup.
http://www.engadget.com/2005/06/20/asustek-building-14-inch-widescreen-ibook-for-apple/
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20051101PR203.html

So why again would I buy an OS X machine made by Asustek from Dell rather than Apple?

B

Which all gets back to my point about outsourcing to the lowest builder...everyone is doing it to compete, so all products are subject to the same decrease in quality due to shortcuts. Oh well, we just have to hope that Apple's support stays the same and/or gets better...because we'll need it.

 

[Demon Hunter]

Very well put!

Let's hope ol' Stevie isn't going anywhere soon.

Thanks! Hopefully, with his cancer treated, he'll live another 120 years.

 

[Macmadant]

Jobs is a great man, look what hes done for apple since he came back, i think you've got a screw loose, and besides the mac is steves baby, as long as hes around he'll never kill it

 

[MacTruck]

I guess we DO have to beat that dead horse.



First off.. Apple is a hardware company. They make most of their money from hardware sales. They don't make anything off OS X. If they did, you would think they might put in some sort of keys/serials. For the moment (and historically) it's been honor system.

Second off.. as noted by stoid. Look how many drivers and deivices that Microsoft has to build compatability into EACH iteration of their OS AND their patches? Why would anyone KNOWINGLY get hit between the eyes with that hammer? As Apple controls the hardware (mostly), Apple controls and limits their support headaches.

Good points but here is a good point too. Why doesn't apple just let us install it on a pc then and say its not supported? Why does a website have to offer a $13K prize for someone to hack it? They can at least open it up and let hardware developers write drivers themselves.

I don't know of any other OS written for X86 that is that nasty to install. Heck even linux is easier, and on that note linux is FREE, no company supports that and look how popular it is.

No, they are intentionally stopping us from installing on x86 despite what they have been saying. Disagree? Look at the beta, installed on PCs no problem.

 

[gauchogolfer]

Good points but here is a good point too. Why doesn't apple just let us install it on a pc then and say its not supported?

To sell something to a customer incurs a certain amount of responsibility; as you said, Linux is free and thus can skirt this issue. If you pay Apple for Mac OS X and install it on another x86 machine (as supported by Apple), Apple then has certain obligations for customer support. They can't just sell something to you and say "good luck!".

 

[thegreatluke]

Steve Jobs doesn't care about money.
He's richer than Jesus as it is.
(Actually, his official salary at Apple is $1 US a year, and he owns stock rather than getting paid a real salary, so if Apple fails, he fails. Quite a good way for a CEO to keep his company good and not try to profit off of stripping the company down, eh?)

Anyway, Mac OS X only costs $129, and iLife only costs $80, less with a discount of some sort. Both of these are also free on every Mac you purchase, so they don't profit much off of these two things at ALL.

Stevie's a healthy man. He's a pescetarian*, and healthily thin. He's got at least 30 good years on him to be CEO.

Then, when he retires or passes, I'll be the new CEO!

(*Pescetarian = like a vegetarian, but eats fish on occasion.)

 

[mmmcheese]

Good points but here is a good point too. Why doesn't apple just let us install it on a pc then and say its not supported? Why does a website have to offer a $13K prize for someone to hack it? They can at least open it up and let hardware developers write drivers themselves.

I don't know of any other OS written for X86 that is that nasty to install. Heck even linux is easier, and on that note linux is FREE, no company supports that and look how popular it is.

No, they are intentionally stopping us from installing on x86 despite what they have been saying. Disagree? Look at the beta, installed on PCs no problem.

Which OS are you talking about? I'm assuming you mean Windows since that's what the $13,000 prize was for...getting Windows running on an Intel based Mac. They aren't intentionally stopping people from installing Windows on a Mac, Windows just doesn't support EFI...that's not really Apple's fault (Intel has been trying to get the PC world to switch to EFI since the late 90s).

 

[yellow]

I don't know of any other OS written for X86 that is that nasty to install. Heck even linux is easier, and on that note linux is FREE, no company supports that and look how popular it is.

Therein lies the rub.. when people pay for RedHat or whatever, they're (more or less) paying for support. Because, as you said, Linux is free. And should remain so.

No, they are intentionally stopping us from installing on x86 despite what they have been saying. Disagree? Look at the beta, installed on PCs no problem.

Yes it did.. But in order to make the transition (IMO) they would have to come up with an obscene software key protection for OS X. I can't even begin to tell you how many pirated copies of Windows XP I see. Now I'm not supporting piracy, but statistically, it's "OK" becuase when you have your **** on billions of computers, loosing 1-2% (made up numbers) to piracy is dealable. But I see OS X getting pirated in larger numbers (statistically).. which would hurt the bottom line.

 

[steve_hill4]

Now, you're getting silly. At no point, did I say surveys/statistics is DA TRUTH. I simply asked that people provide some evidence to back up their claims when they make blanket statements like "Apple's quality has gone down hill." Give me some 'hard facts,' as you yourself say.

The J.D. Power Survey is actually quite instructive because it's measuring one variable, via the same methodology, over time. And what it shows is that Apple consumers' satisfaction has gone up in recent years. Yes, I know, consumer satisfaction does not equal reliability but there is a connection. If reliability has indeed gone down hill so much in recent years, it would be reflected in consumer satisfaction (unless you claim some vast conspiracy and that all Mac purchasers are brainwashed).

And yes, I do think Consumer Reports surveys from 2004 and J.D.Power's surveys ARE more credible than your impressions and anecdotes.

P.S. In case you missed it: "Three months ago, in the September 2004 issue, Consumer Reports rated Apple as the #1 manufacturer for both technical support and repair history, for both desktop systems and laptop systems, based on their annual subscriber survey." Now, how do you propose to measure reliability if you don't ask people about their computer's repair history? And 39,000 IS a significant sample for a survey; 5% of that 39,000 is roughly 2,000.

I agree. While hardware often seems as realible as other, Windows, machines these days, (like for like pricing here), software still allows Apple to be #1 in reliability. Even when hardware does go wrong, Apple's policy for returns is straightforward, quick and almost always finds the fault and repairs it. Other manufacturers I have dealt with often spend two weeks with the item and when you ring them up about your laptop, they try to convince you it's actually a desktop before sending it back with no problem found, only to exhibit the same flaws.

That's why Apple customers are generally more satisfied.

 

[marchcapital]

"we didnt make computers for money, we did it to change the world"


Steve Jobs-1979

thats bull **** as well, i told you he was a hippie. he hasnt come close to changing the world. i hate to be the force of reason, but if your a hardware company that aint going to do anything to change the world. now a software company on the other hand may be able to create somthing that could come close to changing the world, like in the medical field or sumthing. jobs is going to have to get his priorities straightened out.

 

[nylon]

With Boot Camp I think Jobs can be officially removed from the loonie bin and placed in the genious bin.

 

[yellow]

i hate to be the force of reason, but if your a hardware company that aint going to do anything to change the world. now a software company on the other hand may be able to create somthing that could come close to changing the world, like in the medical field or sumthing. jobs is going to have to get his priorities straightened out.

And the iPod hasn't changed the way the world looks at portable music?
And Mike Dell hasn't changed with world with his "low cost" PCs, in comparision to how much IBMs and the big players back in the day were?
And what about the folks that put together the first comsumer computers? Without those, there would be nothing to put your software on.
And finally, most medical products are HARDWARE, with integrated software. Not software alone. Not even by a long shot.

I'd hate for you to be the force of reason too.. mainly because you're not very good at it.

 

[marchcapital]

The thing is that you're right. Quality assurance at Apple has dropped. That is the problem when you want to produce cheap, want to get products out the door fast and on top of all that want to keep it all a secret.
Apple is in a predicament here because they want all those three things. The quality is a result of this.

this is pretty much what i'm trying to say. apples quality does suffer because they want to do to many things at once.

if i write subtley on this site, nobody takes notice. but if i write arrogantly, everyone takes notice, and i get a good intense argument.

wether you see it that way or not is of little concern to me.

 

[marchcapital]

And the iPod hasn't changed the way the world looks at portable music?

i said in my original argument if you read it. i said he should stick to software and ipods. ppl dont switch to appl just because of the looks of the computer, it certainly helps, however, the operating system is what captures their attention.

 

[marchcapital]

medical field or sumthing.

i said medical field or sumthing. i didnt say only the medical field. please learn to read, i dont have time to keep doing this.

 

[yellow]

the operating system is what captures their attention.

That's true.. but in order to GET the OS, you HAVE to buy the hardware too.

Just think for a second about how much money it would cost Apple to switch to a fully software market. They'd have to go through a serious transition period where they were loosing money. And investors don't like that. And who knows if anyone will actually buy it on a Dell if it was offered? Ignorant people probably won't. And there a large percentage of PC owners that are ignorant. You're assuming that they actually might come out the other side as a successful software company. Why risk putting yourself out of business when your current model is doing pretty well?? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[marchcapital]

To sell something to a customer incurs a certain amount of responsibility; as you said, Linux is free and thus can skirt this issue. If you pay Apple for Mac OS X and install it on another x86 machine (as supported by Apple), Apple then has certain obligations for customer support. They can't just sell something to you and say "good luck!".

they certainly can to that. all the have to do is put a warning to buyers that its use at own risk, and then cover themselves in the fine print. its quite simply actually.

 

[yellow]

i said in my original argument if you read it.

i hate to be the force of reason, but if your a hardware company that aint going to do anything to change the world.

So, you contridict yourself later on?

please learn to read, i dont have time to keep doing this.

An English lesson? How hypocritical of you.

 

[marchcapital]

That's true.. but in order to GET the OS, you HAVE to buy the hardware too.

Just think for a second about how much money it would cost Apple to switch to a fully software market. They'd have to go through a serious transition period where they were loosing money. And investors don't like that. And who knows if anyone will actually buy it on a Dell if it was offered? Ignorant people probably won't. And there a large percentage of PC owners that are ignorant. You're assuming that they actually might come out the other side as a successful software company. Why risk putting yourself out of business when your current model is doing pretty well?? It just doesn't make sense.

i have to agree with you. it doesnt make sense just to jump in head first to being a software company exclusivley. however, it would be very simple for jobs to test the market. give dell buyers the option to be able to dual boot xp and os x on their dell for an extra 250 dollars. meanwhile, apple is still carrying out normal operations back at home. it wouldnt hurt apple in anyway to just test the market and see how much demand there would be.