iTunes needs to break up with itself

[Planey28]

I am still convinced that most people would find any music library application with a similar feature set similarly complex and complicated, that the problem is not iTunes but peoples' expectations.

But it's not a music library application alone. It's also a movie/TV show library app, podcast service, music streaming service, iOS app backup manager and device sync manager.

The problem is most definitely with iTunes, it's great that you enjoy it so much but most people seemingly do not.

As for there being an easy solution; obviously none are easy, but Apple has beyond the manpower and $$$ to work on a new solution. They've already done this with many of their other apps, which yes, have lost features in their initial re-release, but have been added back over regular updates and in many ways the replacements have been much more modern and enjoyable to use.

 

[jsmith189]

I don't see how something is "bloated" and "cluttered" when you only look at one thing at a time. It's not as if you're presented with EVERYTHING iTunes can do on the one screen - like @manu chao said, it's separated into buttons/links at the top and you go to whichever one you need when you need it. What's moving them all into their own apps going to do to change that, other than having to take up five more icons on the dock and making easily syncing to your phone a nightmare? You're still going to have to click to get to different sections and their respective stores. This just feels like complaining for the sake of complaining.

What does a media hub have to do with the App Store and device management? iTunes is separate from the music app on iOS why should it be different on the Mac?

Because the capabilities of an iOS app are very different to that of an OSX app.

 

[Narcaz]

I don't see how something is "bloated" and "cluttered" when you only look at one thing at a time. It's not as if you're presented with EVERYTHING iTunes can do on the one screen - like @manu chao said, it's separated into buttons/links at the top and you go to whichever one you need when you need it. What's moving them all into their own apps going to do to change that, other than having to take up five more icons on the dock and making easily syncing to your phone a nightmare? You're still going to have to click to get to different sections and their respective stores. This just feels like complaining for the sake of complaining. (...)

I don't why you and manuchao seem to be so offended by different opinions about the iTunes user experience. I have no problem with you being happy with the current iTunes version. But especially KALLT provided a lot of valid examples of UI inconsistencies and problematic workflows. Believe it or not, a lot of options and possibilities have the potential to confuse people. I don't know why you think that everything should be in iTunes. So far Apple has added more and more functionality over the years and rearranged UI elements to squeeze nearly everything into iTunes. And for me and some others this approach doesn't work out well. It is often easier to use Airdrop to add files to my iOS devices, then to use iTunes.

I think it is somehow funny that you present different apps as a recipe for a syncing nightmare, because that actually reflects partly the current situation. As pointed out many times in this thread Itunes doesn't provide full device management. At least there is the photos app for photos and family videos (why?!) and ibooks for books. And things get worse if you're not fully committed to icloud, because itunes has only very limited options to see what is in the cloud. There isn't much beyond the icloud music library and a small info label, that you're backing up you device with icloud. For futher information about your files, you have to go the system preferences and use iCloud Drive in Finder. In my opinion Apple has to do something about it. Be at a common library with all files and a visible cloud area, breaking up itunes in other apps or just some other clever way.

And to tackle the windows needs one app argument, i have a bit of anecdotical evidence. For most of my windows using friends and colleagues with iOS devices itunes is just a necessary evil to get the iOS experience. They want some Android style explorer drag and drop to add files and are overwhelmed with the confusing syncing and library options of itunes. They don't really care about the Store and music options on their PCs. They just set this up one time, throw in their mp3 collection and sync their preferred music. Unless they need to restore their iPhone, they never open itunes again. They were relieved when they could get away from itunes with iCloud, cloud and streaming apps. And now with Apple Music, Apple wants them to go back? I still think a separated app or a webplayer would be a better approach to get these people on board.

 

[manu chao]

But it's not a music library application alone. It's also a movie/TV show library app, podcast service, music streaming service, iOS app backup manager and device sync manager.

But in what way do they interfere with each other? Would making each of the 'tabs' at the top left of iTunes a separate app change anything how things work 'within' each tab? Is having to switch between these functions via tabs inside iTunes instead of using the Dock (if they were separate apps) to switch between these functions the actual real sticking point that makes iTunes complicated?

The more I think about it, it seems the mental model that there is an application that has different modes is the real sticking point. Yes, it adds complexity, yes it is different than switching between apps via the Dock, cmd-tab, or by clicking into the window of an app in the background. But that is the sort of complexity that merely keeps you alert, that tickles your brain just enough so don't completely dose off. If it is that minor mental flexibility that iTunes asks of people that is pissing them off, I really don't know what else to say.

As for there being an easy solution; obviously none are easy, but Apple has beyond the manpower and $$$ to work on a new solution. They've already done this with many of their other apps, which yes, have lost features in their initial re-release, but have been added back over regular updates and in many ways the replacements have been much more modern and enjoyable to use.

I think iTunes is getting there as well, just not with a big bang but with small steps. The 'tabs' are an improvement over the sidebar because the sidebar mixed the different modes and content within those modes. If you are in the syncing tab (which is essentially multiple sub-tabs for each device), you only see stuff related to syncing to that device. And that applies to all tabs/modes. The 3-dots menu is another example of providing something simpler (but with much less features).

Part of what some may find complicated isn't really iTunes' fault. For example, how files are synced to iOS apps is more of a limitation of iOS (which is overcome more and more as iOS gets more independent and powerful).

 

[manu chao]

They were relieved when they could get away from itunes with iCloud, cloud and streaming apps. And now with Apple Music, Apple wants them to go back?

Except Apple Music is exactly allowing them to get away from iTunes as iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

...I think iTunes is getting there as well, just not with a big bang but with small steps...
Part of what some may find complicated isn't really iTunes' fault. For example, how files are synced to iOS apps is more of a limitation of iOS (which is overcome more and more as iOS gets more independent and powerful)...

Well, iTunes was released on 9 January, 2001. The developers had 14 years to make it bettter and better, last but not least user-friendly. In my eyes, sorry to say, they did not succeed. You are quite right, iOS has its limits, but it does not mean that a software should be over-complicated and continuously struggling with problems, bugs. It is not iTines fault, it is the fault of the software engineers.

 

[Rogifan]

And to tackle the windows needs one app argument, i have a bit of anecdotical evidence. For most of my windows using friends and colleagues with iOS devices itunes is just a necessary evil to get the iOS experience. They want some Android style explorer drag and drop to add files and are overwhelmed with the confusing syncing and library options of itunes. They don't really care about the Store and music options on their PCs. They just set this up one time, throw in their mp3 collection and sync their preferred music. Unless they need to restore their iPhone, they never open itunes again. They were relieved when they could get away from itunes with iCloud, cloud and streaming apps. And now with Apple Music, Apple wants them to go back? I still think a separated app or a webplayer would be a better approach to get these people on board.

I never use iTunes on my Windows laptop unless I absolutely have to. I'm guessing most people are that way considering you no longer need iTunes to update software on iOS devices.

 

[Rogifan]

I'm okay with iTunes on the Mac. When I'm sitting in front of a computer, I have the time to focus on a complex UI.

Not so with Music on the phone. It's a complex nightmare when out and about. For example, if a pop-up menu pretty-much covers your entire screen with a wall of misaligned, unintelligble text and "..." submenus, then the app designer has failed miserably, IMHO.

I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the UI designers. Marco Arment said it best:

iTunes’ UI design is horrible for similar reasons: not because it has bad designers, but because they’ve been given an impossible task: cramming way too much functionality into a single app while also making it look “clean”.

 

[Narcaz]

Except Apple Music is exactly allowing them to get away from iTunes as iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices.

How is Apple Music allowing them to do so? I can imagine just one possible scenario: they limited themselves to a fresh library based on AM, which can be only accessed with an iOS device. Anything else involves itunes usage. Unless i am missing something in my example from above, they would have to go through itunes with the problematic matching/uploading/drm process with their personal mp3 collection. Local syncing will be disabled as soon as they activate the Cloud library. And if they don't want to use itunes they would have to restrict their usage to the iOS device, because there is no alternative app or web player option to edit playlists or add things to your collection. That doesn't sound very compelling to me when competitive streaming services offer such a solution and have better platform independency.

@Rogifan Making iOS devices more independent contributed probably a lot to their success. And the statement from Marco Arment is really spot on.

 

[manu chao]

Local syncing will be disabled as soon as they activate the Cloud library.

Exactly, and that is everything I said: " iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices"

 

[tomekosiowy]

Exactly, and that is everything I said: " iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices"

So why Internet must be the only way to sync? What about syncing via AirDrop (Bluetooth)+WiFi(without router needs) between iPad and iPhone (both with the same Apple ID authorization)?

 

[jonnyb098]

EVERYONE hates iTunes. It's a bloated piece of software that is trying to do EVERYTHING with your media. Its got nothing but bad press and complaints from loads of users. Anyone defending it hasn't got a clue. You are the 1%

It doesn't even deserve to be called iTunes anymore. It should be called "Media".

But I prefer them breaking it out into separate apps called video, podcasts, music, iTunes Store.......wait....where have we seen this before????? I swear I've seen these applications broken out before , hehe.

 

[Narcaz]

Exactly, and that is everything I said: " iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices"

I would like to remind you that i disagreed with the first part of your previous statement. With Apple Music you can only get away from iTunes if you consider not using your streaming service on your desktop/laptop a viable option. And that's a big if, because multi platform usage is an integral part of every other streaming service.

 

[manu chao]

I would like to remind you that i disagreed with the first part of your previous statement. With Apple Music you can only get away from iTunes if you consider not using your streaming service on your desktop/laptop a viable option. And that's a big if, because multi platform usage is an integral part of every other streaming service.

Nope, even if you use Apple Music in iTunes, there is no settings to set in iTunes, no music to select for the purpose of syncing with your iPhone.

 

[Narcaz]

Nope, even if you use Apple Music in iTunes, there is no settings to set in iTunes, no music to select for the purpose of syncing with your iPhone.

Nope to what exactly? I really don't know what you're trying to tell me. Your first reply was:

Except Apple Music is exactly allowing them to get away from iTunes as iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices.

I still disagree with the bold part. If they want to use Apple Music on their desktop/laptop, they are forced to use iTunes. How does this help people getting away? E.g. the Spotify webplayer allows me to simply login on their website, listen to music and modify my cloud playlists without having to install their app. That's what i would call getting away from the spotify player.

And yes you' re right about local syncing off itunes, i didn't doubt that. It is off and handled via the Cloud. But as soon as people want to add a mp3 from their itunes library, they have to turn on iCloud Library in iTunes. And that means they will have to deal with the complicated process of match/upload of their personal files. Again, how does this help people getting away from itunes?

 

[manu chao]

I still disagree with the bold part.

They no longer spend any second inside iTunes deciding what selection of their library should be on their iPhone because you cannot control anymore what part of your library goes onto your iPhone from within iTunes.

Of course, adding music to their library and playing music on their computer still requires interacting with iTunes, in the same way it did before Apple Music. What Apple Music changed is controlling what part of the library is put on your iPhone, previously that was done inside iTunes, now it is done on the phone.

 

[flur]

It's a valid approach but without further evidence, I cannot fault Apple too much for not splitting up iTunes. If something only 'might' be better, you cannot declare people to be idiots for not doing it.

Well, the way this works internally is that Apple admit the tool is a cluster and assign a UX/design team to re-design it. Given that if they have anyone competent in their UX/Design team, it *would* be better, then they would move forward with building it out. It's not a matter of a bunch of managers sitting around saying, "hey, what do we do? could it be better?" That's just not how it works.

 

[flur]

And to tackle the windows needs one app argument, i have a bit of anecdotical evidence. For most of my windows using friends and colleagues with iOS devices itunes is just a necessary evil to get the iOS experience. They want some Android style explorer drag and drop to add files and are overwhelmed with the confusing syncing and library options of itunes. They don't really care about the Store and music options on their PCs. They just set this up one time, throw in their mp3 collection and sync their preferred music. Unless they need to restore their iPhone, they never open itunes again. They were relieved when they could get away from itunes with iCloud, cloud and streaming apps. And now with Apple Music, Apple wants them to go back? I still think a separated app or a webplayer would be a better approach to get these people on board.

THIS. I was a PC user when iTunes rolled out and hated it from the get-go. Honestly, it was one of the reasons I kept with PCs and avoided the iphone for as long as I did. When I got my first mac a few years ago, I told my husband, who was a mac user, that I was looking forward to a better iTunes experience, as I'd heard it was much better on the mac. He gave me a pitying expression, shook his head, and told me it was no better on the mac. The big difference is that on the mac, it's harder to get away from.

 

[flur]

Exactly, and that is everything I said: " iTunes is no longer involved in syncing music to iOS devices"

They still need to use iTunes to get the music into the cloud, and when it FUBAR's everything, they need to use iTunes to fix it. That's not getting away from iTunes at all.

 

[flur]

They no longer spend any second inside iTunes deciding what selection of their library should be on their iPhone because you cannot control anymore what part of your library goes onto your iPhone from within iTunes.

Of course, adding music to their library and playing music on their computer still requires interacting with iTunes, in the same way it did before Apple Music. What Apple Music changed is controlling what part of the library is put on your iPhone, previously that was done inside iTunes, now it is done on the phone.

This isn't true for Windows users. Most windows users don't dump all their music into iTunes (in part because iTunes makes it hard to do, as it doesn't automatically pick up what's added to My Music the way it should).

 

[manu chao]

They still need to use iTunes to get the music into the cloud, and when it FUBAR's everything, they need to use iTunes to fix it. That's not getting away from iTunes at all.

But that applies to all cloud syncing that has removed syncing tasks from iTunes: contacts, calendar, photos. If we see it as progress that photos are no longer synced via iTunes and don't complain that we still need to use Photos to get photos into the cloud, we cannot really turn around and don't see the same as progress for music as well.

 

[flur]

But that applies to all cloud syncing that has removed syncing tasks from iTunes: contacts, calendar, photos. If we see it as progress that photos are no longer synced via iTunes and don't complain that we still need to use Photos to get photos into the cloud, we cannot really turn around and don't see the same as progress for music as well.

Honestly, music is the ONLY thing that you can't use some other tool for. For instance, I use google for my contacts and calendar and dropbox for my photos. If there were a usable way to skip iTunes and sync my music to my phone and still have it playable via the Music app, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Right now all the alternatives have issues or a lack of features that limit their use.

 

[manu chao]

This isn't true for Windows users. Most windows users don't dump all their music into iTunes (in part because iTunes makes it hard to do, as it doesn't automatically pick up what's added to My Music the way it should).

Windows users just have to warm to drag and drop. Then, instead of dragging music files into the My Music folder, they just drag things into the iTunes window (as that adds them to the iTunes library). I don't see the point of using more than one application to manage music files. If that is what is implied with your statement, then it is the user that is creating complexity.

 

[Noble Actual]

iTunes is probably the only thing I actually hate about my Mac.

- MacBook Air (2013) is so damn light, battery somehow still is very good, gets work done, able to play games

- Bootcamp Windows 7 on, some bugs but going to upgrade to Windows 10

- OS X Yosemite, made Mac a little slower, but the design is so much more appeasing to the eye

- Everything usually syncs relatively well through iCloud

- But iTunes....that piece of **** cluster**** where even though is called iTunes is somehow in charge of almost everything. Its disgusting and with Apple Music, became even more cluttered.

 

[manu chao]

Honestly, music is the ONLY thing that you can't use some other tool for. For instance, I use google for my contacts and calendar and dropbox for my photos.

That works for contacts and calendars because there are third-party applications on iOS that sync Google contacts and calendars with the OS contacts and calendar. For photos that does not exist to my knowledge, meaning photos synced with Dropbox (to the iPhone) won't show in the OS photo library unless saved individually photo by photo (and thus is not accessible from many other places which only get photos from the OS photo library). Third-party applications have read access to the OS photo library, so this works in the other direction.

If there were a usable way to skip iTunes and sync my music to my phone and still have it playable via the Music app, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

The Music app on the iPhone and iTunes are a package, if you want one, you have to take the other one as well. The nature of any syncing mechanism is that you need a client for it on either side. Unfortunately, there are no open syncing standards like IMAP or LDAP for music files. And once you add streaming and DRM, your chances of ever getting one are close to zero.