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I think if you ask most Windows users what made iTunes "successful" for them is the fact they are forced to use it to sync to their iDevices, they have no choice. It's got a more of a reputation for being a bloated resource hog on Windows than on OS X.

This, yes. When I used Windows as my primary OS, all I wanted was a place to drop my music and playlist files. Having to put things into iTunes was just a big time suck, and since it doesn't operate intuitively for a Windows user, it was also an exercise in frustration.
 
What would be ideal is iTunes is split into Music, Videos, Podcasts etc as it is on iOS. That would go a long way to making the experience feel leaner and more fine-tuned to the type of content. The iTunes Store could live within each app.

Bring back an iSync style app to manage the syncing of content to iOS devices and iPods.

I think this is likely a long term goal for Apple as they have already split iBooks out of iTunes. It's probably Windows that is holding it up, although they could continue to have iTunes as is on that platform and work to improve their own platform.

Either that or they need to work heavily to improve the interface and performance of iTunes, it's one of the worst apps on OS X for its UI, adding Apple Music to it feels more like its been "bolted on" rather than properly integrated.

Really quick concept of what a standalone Music app could look like... spent about half an hour on this and IMO the UI looks much more focused when all other media is stripped out and the interface focuses solely on Music.

View attachment 571561

I'd prefer having multiple apps that each do one thing really well than one app that tries to do too much. Looking at the rest of the OS X layout, there are examples of small, focused apps that have been broken down from larger ones - Mail and Notes used to be together, Calendar (then iCal) and Reminders. And it's arguable that some of those apps are more focused and more full-featured this way (especially Notes). After using those more focused apps, it seems so un-Apple to have my TV show files living behind a music-notes-iconed app that also contains a place to store my music collection and a place to purchase any kind of mobile app under the sun. All other considerations aside, considering the way OS X has gone with these other apps, I wouldn't be surprised if they separated the media components of iTunes into separate apps, like iOS has.
 
I think Apple will, and should, take it very slow in breaking up iTunes. First was iBooks. Next might be Podcasts, etc. It would be bad to have one app turn into four or five when you think about the normal user. For many people apps are only what they see on their dock.
 
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I think Apple will, and should, take it very slow in breaking up iTunes. First was iBooks. Next might be Podcasts, etc. It would be bad to have one app turn into four or five when you think about the normal user. For many people apps are only what they see on their dock.

Totally agree. Perhaps at some point they could give users the option of switching but keep the legacy app around, a la iPhoto and Photos? I wouldn't mind that myself.
 
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Well.. I'm starting to like the integrated iTunes app idea better and better. Somehow while I was fooling with Apple Music last night (and into the wee hours this morning!) I became ever fonder of the fact that I can flip from one venue to another inside one app while trying to track something down or just do errands like "did I ever put that on my wishlist" while I happen to be in the store.

To be able to skip around from my library to the Store to Apple Music and back again without ever hitting command-tab to switch apps is pretty nice. I don't think it's confusing about which place I'm in either, although maybe that's subjective. To me the venues look pretty different from each other, which is good.

But try doing that when you know what you want to do and are not interested in mere strolling. I’ve given lots of examples where iTunes is just a pain in the arse. Honestly, and I don’t mean you specifically, if all you want is access to the New, For You or Radio tab to just click on something and listen, or access to the iTunes Store and your wishlist to do your errands, then you won’t encounter the problems most here are talking about. As soon as your music library gets involved, however, it becomes painful.
 
There is certainly some kind of path dependency (especially for old iPods), which doesn't allow an easy way out. Breaking up itunes without opening iOS to finder/explorer drag and drop system or creating a new unified library, content management system won't solve the problem. My problem with the windows argument in the various itunes threads is that some premises are twisted or just wrong. Neither is itunes the solution for everything iOS related nor is the syncing process identical between mac and windows. And i also doubt that iTunes would have been a success without the sync requirement for the highly popular iPod, iPhone and iPad. Itunes already ignores a lot of software guidelines on both systems without barely any noticeable benefit. Why should they keep following the current concept? I expect things to get worse when they built in more features to make Apple Music ready for Android.

Good post.

What's worse is that Apple Music is just redundant, just the same stuff we've always had repurposed for a money grab. So we have to live with bloated iTunes, sluggish performance, delays, and crashes because someone at Apple proclaimed "Subscription might be a threat so we might as well buy Beats and copy Spotify".

BJ
 
Good post.

What's worse is that Apple Music is just redundant, just the same stuff we've always had repurposed for a money grab. So we have to live with bloated iTunes, sluggish performance, delays, and crashes because someone at Apple proclaimed "Subscription might be a threat so we might as well buy Beats and copy Spotify".

BJ
What is redundant about Apple Music? Apple never had streaming music and not everyone has large libraries of paid iTunes content or music ripped from CDs.
 
My main problem with iTunes is that My Music, Apple Music and iTunes Store have three different interfaces. The "full album" option sometimes works, but mostly does not, regardless of whether the album is available on AM. When I am in the iTunes Store tab, I don't have the streaming option. When I am in Apple Music I don't have the "buy album" option. So there is one search field that behaves in three different ways depending on which tab I am in.

As for people being unable to grasp the idea of splitting iTunes into separate apps... Adobe have their Creative Cloud split into Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. They don't have one enormous CC app where you can open documents of all sorts in different tabs only to get frustrated that you can't drag a layer from a Photoshop file into Audition even though it's all in one app. I would be very happy to see iTunes split into offline-listening iTunes app, Apple Music app which doesn't require iCloud to make files available offline (because, really, why?), iTunes Store where you can buy books you read in iBooks, music you listen to in iTunes and movies you watch in iVideos (or whatever you call it) and Sync where you, well, sync. Either that or unify the bloody interface and search so I don't have one app with three UIs and three different search result presentations.
 
I wouldn't split it, so I agree with you. But... they've subtracted too many features in recent releases, for my money:

That pop-down thing instead of separate downloads window was a TERRIBLE idea.

Being able to edit multiple playlist windows at once, why take that away?!​

Visual redisplay of play order when you shuffle a playlist, why is it gone?

Per-playlist or album shuffle, not global. Who wants to shuffle an opera?

Why is option-shuffle on a playlist gone? You could option-shuffle until it
looked like a nice order, then do copy to play order, pop it onto your mobile
and let it play through straight, pre-shuffled to perfection.​
Here you see it: iTunes retains 98% of its features but people complain about the 2% that get axed. At same time, a lot of people say Apple should start fresh and don't try retain all the many small features of iTunes that make is so complex. Damned if you, damned if you don't.
 
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My main problem with iTunes is that My Music, Apple Music and iTunes Store have three different interfaces. The "full album" option sometimes works, but mostly does not, regardless of whether the album is available on AM. When I am in the iTunes Store tab, I don't have the streaming option. When I am in Apple Music I don't have the "buy album" option. So there is one search field that behaves in three different ways depending on which tab I am in.
Who would want to buy albums while paying at the same time for streaming them?

Adobe have their Creative Cloud split into Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc.
No, they don't. There never was a universal app that was split up later. The individual apps started from quite different positions. Their UI differed between the apps, it was only over time that they got more similar. That is something quite different.

I would be very happy to see iTunes split into offline-listening iTunes app, Apple Music app which doesn't require iCloud to make files available offline (because, really, why?)
I have no idea what you mean with that. You want to make files available offline (ie, download from the cloud) without requiring the cloud (ie, iCloud) to do so?
 
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Who would want to buy albums while paying at the same time for streaming them?
I have a free trial of Apple Music which I don't intend to extend unless they fix all the errors. I'm streaming an album I am greatly enjoying and I would like to pay the artist/label for it. I have to go back to the store and search for the artist/title again.

Similarly: I am in the iTunes Store and I see an album I might like. I have an Apple Music subscription. I'd like to stream it once or twice to decide if I want it. I have to switch back to New tab and search for that album again.

It's not a dealbreaker of course. But I don't see why I have to do it seeing as I am using one app.

I have no idea what you mean with that. You want to make files available offline (ie, download from the cloud) without requiring the cloud (ie, iCloud) to do so?
A cloud is not "offline". My hard drive and my smartphone SD card are offline. Currently I have to upload my library to iCloud (and watch it being pillaged and burnt in the process) to download anything offline. I don't see why. I have a perfectly functioning hard drive. Offline content should live on my hard drive, not in the cloud. I believe that's what Beats used to do and Spotify still does. Am I wrong?
 
I have a free trial of Apple Music which I don't intend to extend unless they fix all the errors. I'm streaming an album I am greatly enjoying and I would like to pay the artist/label for it. I have to go back to the store and search for the artist/title again.
In iTunes, right-click on the song/album/artist and select 'Show in iTunes Store'. On iOS use the 3-dot menu. What would be nice if there were an option to select a list of songs (ie, those added to 'My Music' from Apple Music) and say purchase them all. But that is only ever needed the moment somebody stops subscribing, and even then most people would only want to purchase part of that list of songs.
Similarly: I am in the iTunes Store and I see an album I might like. I have an Apple Music subscription. I'd like to stream it once or twice to decide if I want it. I have to switch back to New tab and search for that album again.
What are you doing in the iTunes Store if you have an Apple Music subscription? Start in AM (ie, in the 'For You' or 'New' sections), there you can stream directly and have better discovery tools to begin with while still being able to do a plain search. If you then want to still buy it, you can still use the 'Show in iTunes Store' option.
Currently I have to upload my library to iCloud (and watch it being pillaged and burnt in the process) to download anything offline.
Yup, Apple doesn't allow you to have two separate libraries (one with owned and one with rented music), its one library only. Which I think is the right solution, when it works. It would suck if one year from now, you had to search two separate libraries if you didn't remember anymore whether a particular song had been purchased or only rented. The same way it currently sucks that I have to switch between iTunes and Spotify when I want to play music (I have so far essentially manually synced them by purchasing every song in iTunes that I have added to 'Your Music' in Spotify). Yes, there are ways to 'import' (aka match) all music on your computer (and thus in iTunes) in Spotify but that isn't completely straightforward, doesn't get the playlists (though I think you can export them from iTunes and import them into Spotify which is only of moderate use for smart playlists), nor all the metadata in the form of ratings, play counts, date added etc.
Offline content should live on my hard drive, not in the cloud. I believe that's what Beats used to do and Spotify still does.
Of course, and it does when everything works as designed (which it doesn't always).
 
In iTunes, right-click on the song/album/artist and select 'Show in iTunes Store'.
Is that in My Music or in Apple Music? (I can't check now, I'm on holiday with a Linux running laptop). I didn't know you can select "Show in iTunes Store". My bad.

What are you doing in the iTunes Store if you have an Apple Music subscription?
a) I don't intend to keep the AM subscription
b) (I am aware that 99% customers don't do that) I want to purchase the album because that way the artist/label gets more money

The same way it currently sucks that I have to switch between iTunes and Spotify when I want to play music (I have so far essentially manually synced them by purchasing every song in iTunes that I have added to 'Your Music' in Spotify). Yes, there are ways to 'import' (aka match) all music on your computer (and thus in iTunes) in Spotify but that isn't completely straightforward, doesn't get the playlists (though I think you can export them from iTunes and import them into Spotify which is only of moderate use for smart playlists), nor all the metadata in the form of ratings, play counts, date added etc.
This is exactly why I am so upset about Apple Music. Because I want everything in one app, I want everything to sync flawlessly, I hate having to re-import my playlists to Spotify and see half of them replaced by "Karaoke Tribute To..." versions. But reading the stories of Jim Dalrymple and my less famous friends, having their libraries scrambled beyond recognition, makes me think that either Apple resolves all of those problems (which seems unlikely judging by how well they are doing resolving iTunes Match problems) or, yes, that iTunes needs a complete revamp and possibly to be split into multiple apps, each of which should Just Work.

Of course, and it does when everything works as designed (which it doesn't always).
Yeah. Which iTunes doesn't really as it is...
 
What is redundant about Apple Music? Apple never had streaming music and not everyone has large libraries of paid iTunes content or music ripped from CDs.

Split the two so you don't get confused:

Random Streaming Music: iTunes Radio and Apple Music 'Radio', 'For You', and 'New' are all the same thing as iTunes Radio which has been around for years. They can call it a fancy "curated playlist" all they want. It's iTunes Radio. It's Pandora.

Deep Catalog: iTunes Music Store is a fair deal; you pay $1 for a song that has earned its way into your Library. Apple Music is $120 a year for the rest of your life to pull down any song you like. The average iTunes user spends $12 a year on songs in the iTMS. Apple is essentially asking us to pay 10x for the same thing we could do manually. And don't get me started how each 15 song LP has only 3 decent tracks on it. "Deep Catalog" is really "the stuff no one liked and you're paying for we win ha ha".

Apple Music Deep Catalog is going to be just like Napster circa 1999. People will spend a week staying up until 4AM downloading all the songs and albums they ever wanted, an orgy of music, a smorgasboard of joy. But within a month, people will realize that they aren't listening to all that old stuff, if they really wanted Deep Purple's Greatest Hits they would have bought it years ago, and they're now stuck with Cable TV- paying a fixed monthly fee for old re-run movies and a very rare new show that makes them compelled to watch.

BJ
 
Is that in My Music or in Apple Music? (I can't check now, I'm on holiday with a Linux running laptop). I didn't know you can select "Show in iTunes Store". My bad.
Yes, it is available in the 'For You' and 'New' sections. It works at the song and the album level.
This is exactly why I am so upset about Apple Music. Because I want everything in one app, I want everything to sync flawlessly, I hate having to re-import my playlists to Spotify and see half of them replaced by "Karaoke Tribute To..." versions. But reading the stories of Jim Dalrymple and my less famous friends, having their libraries scrambled beyond recognition, makes me think that either Apple resolves all of those problems (which seems unlikely judging by how well they are doing resolving iTunes Match problems) or, yes, that iTunes needs a complete revamp and possibly to be split into multiple apps, each of which should Just Work.
I don't see how splitting off movies, TV shows, audiobooks, podcasts, or the App Store would improve the meshing of owned music with rented music. Even splitting off device syncing from the music part (playing, organising + iTunes Store) wouldn't improve the situation since iTunes isn't syncing music any longer anyway once you switch on iCML.

Here is a post from Kirk McElhearn (who ran Mac OS X Hints in its last years). It indicates that if enable iCML (for your AppleID) first on the phone and only later in iTunes, it treats all stuff on the phone as music from Apple Music. The take-home message seems to be that it is safer to enable iCML first in iTunes, let it run its course there in terms of matching and uploading. And only then enable it on your iPhone (and choose Replace instead of Merge there to be safe). If you have already enabled iCML for your AppleID once, it's best to reset it first (for which there might be button in the account settings or not, if not, sync a newly created empty library with iCML) before enabling it in iTunes.

A second important point is that iCML (even in iTunes) doesn't do fingerprinting but only matching via tags (whereas iTunes Match supposedly did fingerprinting, though not that this would have avoided all problems). Thus if iCML mismatches songs (eg, life songs with studio versions), removing the song and re-adding it with tags that cannot be mistaken for the studio version (maybe adding a 'Live' to the song name works) could solve that (best probably to keep the computer offline while one is changing the tags).
 
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Split the two so you don't get confused:

Random Streaming Music: iTunes Radio and Apple Music 'Radio', 'For You', and 'New' are all the same thing as iTunes Radio which has been around for years. They can call it a fancy "curated playlist" all they want. It's iTunes Radio. It's Pandora.

Deep Catalog: iTunes Music Store is a fair deal; you pay $1 for a song that has earned its way into your Library. Apple Music is $120 a year for the rest of your life to pull down any song you like. The average iTunes user spends $12 a year on songs in the iTMS. Apple is essentially asking us to pay 10x for the same thing we could do manually. And don't get me started how each 15 song LP has only 3 decent tracks on it. "Deep Catalog" is really "the stuff no one liked and you're paying for we win ha ha".

Apple Music Deep Catalog is going to be just like Napster circa 1999. People will spend a week staying up until 4AM downloading all the songs and albums they ever wanted, an orgy of music, a smorgasboard of joy. But within a month, people will realize that they aren't listening to all that old stuff, if they really wanted Deep Purple's Greatest Hits they would have bought it years ago, and they're now stuck with Cable TV- paying a fixed monthly fee for old re-run movies and a very rare new show that makes them compelled to watch.

BJ
What if I want to create playlists or albums from songs from the streaming part? Should they be stored in the 'Random Streaming Music' section? And if yes, does this mean for example I cannot create playlists with songs I purchased and songs from the streaming section?

If I wanted to have two split services, I already can achieve this with Spotify + iTunes. Except that I currently manually add songs added to 'Your Music' in Spotify to iTunes by buying them and also add songs bought (or ripped) to iTunes.
 
The take-home message seems to be that it is safer to enable iCML first in iTunes, let it run its course there in terms of matching and uploading. And only then enable it on your iPhone

Which is why so many early adopters got burned as Apple released Apple Music to iOS a few hours in advance of the iTunes update going live.

I'm a little disappointed that the help and support only seems to be coming from the online community. Apple should have taken command and got on top of this by now, after all it's Apple Music's reputation which is getting damaged by this discontent. Even if they have not yet found a fix you would think they could offer advice which helps prevent any more damage occurring.
 
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I have a free trial of Apple Music which I don't intend to extend unless they fix all the errors. I'm streaming an album I am greatly enjoying and I would like to pay the artist/label for it. I have to go back to the store and search for the artist/title again.

Similarly: I am in the iTunes Store and I see an album I might like. I have an Apple Music subscription. I'd like to stream it once or twice to decide if I want it. I have to switch back to New tab and search for that album again.

It's not a dealbreaker of course. But I don't see why I have to do it seeing as I am using one app.


A cloud is not "offline". My hard drive and my smartphone SD card are offline. Currently I have to upload my library to iCloud (and watch it being pillaged and burnt in the process) to download anything offline. I don't see why. I have a perfectly functioning hard drive. Offline content should live on my hard drive, not in the cloud. I believe that's what Beats used to do and Spotify still does. Am I wrong?

Yeah I don't like that either. I'm sure Apple doesn't. It's a licensor's issue, I believe. It's about putting DRM on copies of your stuff (even if it's already 256AAC bought from iTunes!) so you can mix your stuff and AM stuff in a single playlist if you want, but they don't want you burning it, mixed licensing though it actually is.

I already noticed you can't drag a downloaded AM track across to your iPod touch via cable connection to a laptop even if you have manual music management. You can get the track from the cloud though, if you have apple music turned on on the device. I wonder now if I can even drag my owned tracks from the library on the laptop to the ipod touch. I think not, because again it's looking at the downloaded DRMd ones as long as I have the iCloud library turned on, even in offline mode. If you do a "Show in Finder" it's greyed out even if the local original file is sitting there untouched and searchable in the Finder.

The purchases I made from Apple as 256 AAC, they show up in list view as being in the cloud with the download arrow on it when my cloud library lurched into life. They don't upload these since they already match what they're prepared to supply as Apple Music downloads, but they'll make you download a DRMd version "as if" it came from Apple Music for offline use. Meanwhile your orginal no-DRM 256AAC file that they sold you sits there with the rest of your local music data files as if they were mp3 or whatever.

Such a waste of bandwidth. And I have slow DSL to boot. This is why I never went for iTunes Match, just the upload of all my non-iTunes-purchased material would take months I think. My provider would cap me after a few weeks of seeing me burn through data like I never had done before. Imagine capping a DSL subscriber. It's to laugh. Or cry.

As for having to repeat a search for an item from venue to venue inside iTunes, usually I can find a contextual menu option or one of those ... ellipsis offerings to let me go find the thing in the Store or "go to song" looks for it in the current venue. In case you do have to go again with the search, I think now they leave the last search term sitting there when you flip between venues while in iTunes. But I'm not sure... I have been doing so much experimenting the last couple days my head is spinning.

Currently I'm trying to wrestle some workaround for not wanting all my playlists on all my devices. At least half the playlists I keep on any laptop's iTunes library are like work files, basically. I mean them for local use and yet I noticed one showed up from another library yesterday. When I went to delete it, iTunes went into that whole alarming routine of "if you delete this it will be deleted from all your devices..." HOLY COW.

Ditching a playlist is not quite the same as deleting underlying content, or that used to be the case. But now I am not really sure because of how the cloud treats manipulation of objects having cloud content in them, especially from mobile devices over the air. So I left the stupid list there, extraneous and annoying. I think I will put into a folder JUNK LISTS and hope that foldering is a local process. This is bound to become more of an issue over time.

Meanwhile I have begun to wonder what happens when I create a playlist on a library and later launch an iTunes library from my spare laptop, which also has apple music and icloud music library turned on, will that playlist be there ALONG WITH ANY (LOCAL) CONTENT that other playlist may have contained? If ithe second library doesn't have the same local content, will the device start trying to download the required content to fill it out??! I thought i could may be rename it, then I realized I'd end up with TWO playlists on BOTH devices. Then I went outside for a walk to clear my brain...

There have always been reasons I do not want the same downloaded content across all my libraries. Space considerations on mobiles. Separate groups of genres for certain libraries meant to be used on laptop only. Even testing some of the workarounds seem fraught with danger! Good to have a lot of backups and a sense of humor I guess :D :confused: :)
 
What if I want to create playlists or albums from songs from the streaming part? Should they be stored in the 'Random Streaming Music' section? And if yes, does this mean for example I cannot create playlists with songs I purchased and songs from the streaming section?

If I wanted to have two split services, I already can achieve this with Spotify + iTunes. Except that I currently manually add songs added to 'Your Music' in Spotify to iTunes by buying them and also add songs bought (or ripped) to iTunes.

If you find that the merging of iTunes Playlists and Spotify is a great thing then go for it, spend $120 a year for that privilege. There are some people who a) spend more than $120 a year on iTunes downloads and b) have very small back catalog libraries of the old classics.

To me, I find iTunes Playlists polluted with the streaming stuff annoying. My Playlists are personal, I've curated them, I don't want anyone messing with them. To make one of my Playlists, the song has to earn it. Has to catch my attention on free radio, has to stick over a few listens, then I'll buy it. Radio, is impersonal. I'll pick a genre or a custom artist/song station on iTunes Radio and let it rip when I want to discover something new.

BJ
 
Which is why so many early adopters got burned as Apple released Apple Music to iOS a few hours in advance of the iTunes update going live.

I'm a little disappointed that the help and support only seems to be coming from the online community. Apple should have taken command and got on top of this by now, after all it's Apple Music's reputation which is getting damaged by this discontent. Even if they have not yet found a fix you would think they could offer advice which helps prevent any more damage occurring.

+1

This is Apple's third foray into Cloud-based solutions and all have launched as a mess and barely recovered. iCloud, Match, Music, instead of getting these things fixed they just hide. I'm a big Apple fan, but this part of their brand is really troublesome.

BJ
 
If you find that the merging of iTunes Playlists and Spotify is a great thing then go for it, spend $120 a year for that privilege.
You forget that you pay the same $120/yr for your split solution. So I don't see the point of that statement.
To me, I find iTunes Playlists polluted with the streaming stuff annoying.
I have no idea what you are talking about. How does a rented song pollute a playlist? Whether I add a song from the streaming side or from the iTunes Store first to my library and then possibly to a playlist of mine, doesn't affect the character of the playlist at all. Maybe you think the curated playlists show up intermingled with your handcrafted ones. But that is not the case, the curated playlists only show up in the 'For You' and 'New' sections. Only if you really like a playlist can you add to your personal playlists and even there they show up under a separate header. And then you might take that playlist and modify it yourself.
My Playlists are personal, I've curated them, I don't want anyone messing with them.
See above, nobody is messing with them until you explicitly add one of the curated playlists to your playlists and then you can modify them as you want.
To make one of my Playlists, the song has to earn it. Has to catch my attention on free radio, has to stick over a few listens, then I'll buy it.
Whether you listen to it on a playlist played on the radio, or one you click on in a streaming service, isn't really much of a difference.
 
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I would like Apple to add a user preference setting to iTunes with something along the lines of "I don't want to try Apple Music so please make all the crap that only works with Apple Music disappear from my iTunes". ;)

Where do i get this option from pls?
itunes is a complete mess - if it was a dog your would have it put down to be kind, rather than letting it suffer on.
 
I got disgusted and divorced iTunes years ago. Little did I realize just how much better off I was without it. Initially buying into iTunes came from my years as an Apple enthusiast, which is _NOT_ to be confused with a fan boy.

Slow to become wireless, Apple's addiction to profit from proprietary overpriced rather flimsy cables and other proprietary stuff, has kept them wired but laughing all the way to the bank. Apple knows exactly what it's doing and how to spin the story to get the customers to buy in.
 
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