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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,733
32,196
Do I love iPadOS as it exist now? Nope... because there are flaws, it's not perfect. And I'm sure most iPad users will share that same sentiment. However, I much prefer iPad hardware to the Mac.


I respect that. At least your consistent across the board.
I wish Apple would be consistent with naming across the board. Their most expensive Apple Watch is called ultra not pro. Apple Pencil Pro actually makes sense because it offers utility the USB version doesn’t.
 

giggles

macrumors 65816
Dec 15, 2012
1,051
1,285
I’d be curious to know of those who buy an iPad Pro, what percent are buying it because it’s a nicer iPad vs the percent buying it because they would like it to be their main computer for productivity.

When all is said and done, does it matter?

Some people may buy it because it's nicer, other because it's more capable (in some admittedly limited scenarios), or both.

I think with Apple premium products it's all about the "price of admission" to nicer screens, nicer build, nicer mics, nicer this, nicer that, sometimes more raw power or exclusive features.

The base products are already a dream compared to what we used to have years ago, and then if you want something nicer (no matter why or for what purpose) you have to pay a "price of admission".
 

toobravetosave

Suspended
Sep 23, 2021
1,017
2,532
yeah i mean dont get an ipad

what they should really do is just have touch screen macs because sometimes it would simply be convenient to touch something instead of using the touchpad or a mouse
 
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the future

macrumors 68040
Jul 17, 2002
3,642
5,933
I don’t remember him defending the Apple Watch Edition.

Not the same situation at all, though. All the Edition models had were nicer materials, the technology was exactly the same. iPad Pros have better technology, making the device – in his parlance – "nicer", e.g. lighter.

He’s a Mac guy and will never be an iPad guy. (...) There’s no way in hell he’d ever use iPad as his main computer.

Which he is very open about, too. But this doesn't run counter to the point he is making, which is a very good point. If you are a casual user, iPad is all the computer you need; if you are a power user, iPad is more useful as a complementary device (although/because it is much better at some things than a Mac). Either way you have a choice between a more basic (regular iPad) middle-of-the-road (iPad Air) or super nice experience (iPad Pro). The only people feeling (and being) left out are pro users who – for whatever reason – wish the iPad to be their main/only computer. But that is their (niche) problem, not a problem of the iPad per se.

FWIW, I think his take is spot on. All the "great hardware held back by the software" takes are a cliché by now and always come from the perspective of power users frustrated by the limitations of iPad(OS). They basically want iPad to be something it was never meant to be.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
A few days ago, I was thinking how it would be a little different, maybe even interesting, to read a review of the iPad Pro from a perspective that wasn’t “pining for macOS”. I didn’t expect it to come from Daringfireball.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
Also, go back and listen to some of Gruber’s podcasts when ‘pro’ iPhones were rumored. His argument then was Apple should go all the way in making them devices for professionals. Now he’s saying ‘pro’ iPads are meant to be like a ceramic Apple Watch and that’s totally fine. Of course it’s totally fine for him because his main computer will always be a Mac and he can afford to own an Mac and an iPad Pro if he chooses.
It kinda makes sense, though. Like, sure, “iPad powerful, OS not” is a good solid take, it’s easy and then one can load up the rest of the article with things like “iPad doesn’t have a text editor” or “you can’t open PDF’s on iPad” knowing that no one’s REALLY going to call those out. But, where that disconnects from reality when one takes into account that iPads, from $349 on up, with the same UI and features across most of the lines, outsell Macs embarrassingly well. Almost 600 million sold since its introduction in 2010, it’s a hit. The article to me reads like, “I’ve got to wrap my head around this. Why do I and many other folks reviewing iPads continue to run the same lines over and over again iPad after iPad such that it reads like ‘We all have no idea why this incredibly limited thing is so popular!’ Either we’re right and 600 million iPads are wrong, or we’re all missing something. Probably something simple and obvious.”

I give them props for at least trying to understand it.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,733
32,196
When all is said and done, does it matter?

Some people may buy it because it's nicer, other because it's more capable (in some admittedly limited scenarios), or both.

I think with Apple premium products it's all about the "price of admission" to nicer screens, nicer build, nicer mics, nicer this, nicer that, sometimes more raw power or exclusive features.

The base products are already a dream compared to what we used to have years ago, and then if you want something nicer (no matter why or for what purpose) you have to pay a "price of admission".
I don’t care why someone is buying something. My issue is arguing iPadOS is fine as is because iPad Pro is really just meant to be a ‘luxury’ iPad and everyone else is fine with mostly iOS on a bigger screen.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
Jim used to be as in the bag for Apple as Gruber..
Now that he's retired, look at where he's at!


View attachment 2378417

(kudos to him for keeping it real! - from this morning)
I’m convinced that Apple’s so focused on getting new customers (in the 18-35 demographic that can potentially buy lots more Apple things in the future) that the older one gets, the less likely they’re apt to like anything Apple’s doing.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,733
32,196
Not the same situation at all, though. All the Edition models had were nicer materials, the technology was exactly the same. iPad Pros have better technology, making the device – in his parlance – "nicer", e.g. lighter.



Which he is very open about, too. But this doesn't run counter to the point he is making, which is a very good point. If you are a casual user, iPad is all the computer you need; if you are a power user, iPad is more useful as a complementary device (although/because it is much better at some things than a Mac). Either way you have a choice between a more basic (regular iPad) middle-of-the-road (iPad Air) or super nice experience (iPad Pro). The only people feeling (and being) left out are pro users who – for whatever reason – wish the iPad to be their main/only computer. But that is their (niche) problem, not a problem of the iPad per se.

FWIW, I think his take is spot on. All the "great hardware held back by the software" takes are a cliché by now and always come from the perspective of power users frustrated by the limitations of iPad(OS). They basically want iPad to be something it was never meant to be.
Then there was no point in forking iOS if it’s good enough. And I actually don’t think his argument makes sense because as you say the iPad Pro has better technology than the Air or regular iPad. Maybe it’s just semantics but to me the luxury argument would be about materials and the look and feel, not necessarily the tech inside. 🤷‍♀️
 

G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,856
4,908
Tech analysts Benedict Evans posted something on Threads about iPad software being fine for 90% of iPad users. I’d be curious to know of those who buy an iPad Pro, what percent are buying it because it’s a nicer iPad vs the percent buying it because they would like it to be their main computer for productivity. Maybe the 10% who want more from iPad software are mostly iPad Pro users.

I bought my M4 13 inch iPad Pro pure and simple for the nicer screen. The rest of the benefits go along for the ride.

I own three iPads, a mini 6 (A 15 bionic) for reading in bed, a 2021 12.9 inch iPad Pro (M1) for the office which I often use on a stand linked with my Mac, and a 2020 11 inch iPad (A12Z) for when I am sitting on the couch. I use them primarily for reading and replying to email, playing games, browsing the internet, and to be honest, they are fairly interchangeable to me...I dont pick one over the other based on what I need to do, more where I am. Meaning I agree with Gruber when he says the software experience in most cases is independent of chip in most recent iPads. I could care less about the name of the device, air, pro, no suffix, I recognize and appreciate the luxury of the pro's screens.

And like Gruber explained there are two camps of iPad users, camp A for those whom it's their primary device, and camp B, those for whom it complements their Macs. I am in camp B. On the occasion I want to dig into an excel spreadsheet, or have multiple windows for report writing, or just multiple screens, I dont curse at the iPad for not being Pro enough, I simply use my Mac. To me they are two different devices with two different uses. I am sure there will be people that criticize me for not being angry at Apple for 'forcing' me to buy two devices, but eh, a motorcycle vendor doesn't force you to buy a car for bad weather. They are different. And you can happily own both.

Would I like it if I could slide my iPad into a doc and it run Mac OS with extra screens hooked to the dock? sure. Do I curse apple for not giving me that? nope. Do I want to run Mac OS on my iPad for out of doc use? nope. I like the simplicity of iPad OS and a touch screen for 80% of what I do. For the other 20%, I use a Mac.

Thanks OP for bringing Gruber's comments to my attention. I think that people that dismiss him as an Apple shrill are missing out on some interesting ideas for critical thinking. Do I always agree with him? No. But he makes me think. A lot more than the 'apple just sucks because I say it does, Tim Cook is an idiot because I say he is, Apple charges too much because I want to pay less' wah wah crowd.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,733
32,196
It kinda makes sense, though. Like, sure, “iPad powerful, OS not” is a good solid take, it’s easy and then one can load up the rest of the article with things like “iPad doesn’t have a text editor” or “you can’t open PDF’s on iPad” knowing that no one’s REALLY going to call those out. But, where that disconnects from reality when one takes into account that iPads, from $349 on up, with the same UI and features across most of the lines, outsell Macs embarrassingly well. Almost 600 million sold since its introduction in 2010, it’s a hit. The article to me reads like, “I’ve got to wrap my head around this. Why do I and many other folks reviewing iPads continue to run the same lines over and over again iPad after iPad such that it reads like ‘We all have no idea why this incredibly limited thing is so popular!’ Either we’re right and 600 million iPads are wrong, or we’re all missing something. Probably something simple and obvious.”

I give them props for at least trying to understand it.
And how many of those 600 million sold are iPad Pros? Again, it was Apple’s decision to create the iPad Pro and fork iOS into iPadOS. It was Apple’s decision to make the Magic Keyboard essentially turning the iPad Pro into a laptop form factor. The thing is I don’t believe Apple has to bring macOS to the iPad or ruin the iPad experience for the hundreds of millions of casual users in order to bring more capability to power users who’d like it to be their main computing device.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
So, I suppose... you want Apple to remove Pro from the iPhone as well?

I personally don't see how the name is the issue... look at the MacBook Air vs MacBook Pro, it's all to signify the premium selection that Apple offers. Maybe you want Apple to remove Pro from the AirPods too?
Apple folks are a semantic lot. :)
 

G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,856
4,908
Then there was no point in forking iOS if it’s good enough. And I actually don’t think his argument makes sense because as you say the iPad Pro has better technology than the Air or regular iPad. Maybe it’s just semantics but to me the luxury argument would be about materials and the look and feel, not necessarily the tech inside. 🤷‍♀️

Then read again. His argument is by virtue of the tech inside Apple could make the Pro thinner, and that was the luxury goal, not to mention how is thinner and lighter not about the look and feel? Also the dual layer OLED screen requires the GPU of the M4, and that too is a luxury. He very much admits the software experience is similar, but the tech gives it the ability to achieve these luxury goals. The tech, in his opinion, is not to just enable faster tools (though undeniably the GPU will produce superior results for some Apps and games).

His argument is relatively straight forward, stop judging the iPad as a limited Mac. after all, we don't judge Macs as limited iPads (but try to hold one as easily and touch the screen). Judge an iPad as a screen you can hold in your hand and interact with directly by touch. If you want different features that the iPad doesn't support as well, use a difference device.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
I’d love to know who these lovers of iPadOS (as it exists today) are. My mom loves her iPad but she wouldn’t know the first thing about the software running it.
This. This precisely. Your mom, that is, the folks that love iPadOS don’t know the first thing about the software running it, they touch things, things happen, and the word “filesystem” never even drifts through the folds of their brains while they’re doing it.

And, if you say “you can’t edit text on it”, you’ll likely confuse them greatly… or at least lead them to believe what they’re doing in Notes must not be text editing and they should see if they can buy a text editing app from the App Store.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
I’d love to know who these lovers of iPadOS (as it exists today) are. My mom loves her iPad but she wouldn’t know the first thing about the software running it.
This. This precisely. Your mom, that is, the folks that love iPadOS don’t know the first thing about the software running it, they touch things, things happen, and the word “filesystem” never even drifts through the folds of their brains while they’re doing it.

And, if you say “you can’t edit text on it”, you’ll likely confuse them greatly… or at least lead them to believe what they’re doing in Notes must not be text editing and they should see if they can buy a text editing app from the App Store.
 

Nautilus007

macrumors 68030
Jul 13, 2007
2,667
1,416
U.S
I actually enjoyed his review ... I think he's just tired of saying the same thing over and over again. A fresh take....
Although if Apple intends on marketing it as a luxury product they should add some accessories that are luxurious...
 
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the future

macrumors 68040
Jul 17, 2002
3,642
5,933
Then there was no point in forking iOS if it’s good enough.

This thing is not black and white. The spectrum between „casual“ and „pro“ users is a continuum. There absolutely are „pro“ workflows on iPad that just aren‘t possible on iPhone - just not all pro workflows that are possible on Macs. Keyboard and trackpad support have become much better, external display support has been added and made better as well. So gradually the pool of user for whom iPad (Pro) is all the computer they need has become bigger.

And I actually don’t think his argument makes sense because as you say the iPad Pro has better technology than the Air or regular iPad. Maybe it’s just semantics but to me the luxury argument would be about materials and the look and feel, not necessarily the tech inside. 🤷‍♀️

Having a display, on a device that is basicall all display, with better blacks/contrast, and the device itself, which is supposed to be hand-hold, being much lighter in hand is literally look and feel.

Edit: also „luxury“ is the wrong term and Gruber never uses it. „Nicer“ is spot on.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
yeah i mean dont get an ipad

what they should really do is just have touch screen macs because sometimes it would simply be convenient to touch something instead of using the touchpad or a mouse
Gotta say, the “mouse waggle, spot where the pointer is, then move the pointer to what I want to click on” will always be slower than “tap my target”.
 
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iObama

macrumors 65816
Nov 16, 2008
1,098
2,608
You've just learned why I stopped listening to him years and years ago now

He's really just running PR in defense of Apple and it's covered with a thin veneer of "informed and objective takes" (largely not true)

He always has been

I give him credit -- he's made an entire career of pontificating on Apple from his guest bedroom (sorry, office)

If one enjoys his nonsense and long winded talk, by all means, indulge - just know what you're getting.
Not from the guest bedroom 🤣🤣🤣

Dead.
 
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giggles

macrumors 65816
Dec 15, 2012
1,051
1,285
One thing to consider is both iPads and Macs are now "keep it for 5-7 years"-class devices.

Thus it's not that hard on one's wallet to actively own both (if needed), like they're a washer and a dryer.

I bet for the time being Apple prefers us to buy both.
In an alternate reality where iPad was as successful as the iPhone (that was the assumption in the early years of explosive iPad growth), then maybe yes they could have retired the Mac and made the iPad Mac-like quickly. In our reality, it's little steps at a time for iPadOS.
 
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G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,856
4,908
Yeah, actually I would. When I think of ‘pro’ I think of ‘professional’ not ‘luxury’.

I could not care less what any marketing person deems to name their product. I always evaluate a product for what it does (or does not do), not what it's called. That marketers aren't consistent just supports my view of them as being just one step above politicians. At least a marketer is honest about wanting your money. Why should I waste my time thinking about how or why or what they do? Does the product do what I want? Can I afford it? Or are there better cheaper alternatives? That's what I care about.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,609
8,624
And how many of those 600 million sold are iPad Pros? Again, it was Apple’s decision to create the iPad Pro and fork iOS into iPadOS. It was Apple’s decision to make the Magic Keyboard essentially turning the iPad Pro into a laptop form factor. The thing is I don’t believe Apple has to bring macOS to the iPad or ruin the iPad experience for the hundreds of millions of casual users in order to bring more capability to power users who’d like it to be their main computing device.
Yes, Apple’s decision to create the iPad Pro, Apple’s decision to fork iPadOS, Apple’s decision to make the Magic Keyboard, and one more, Apple’s decision to continue to keep it as simple and limited as they believe will continue to drive sales (my guess is that, if they sell 60 million iPads between now and next year, that SHOULD be a little over 1 million iPad Pros. However, with the quality of the OLED screen and the knowledge that Apple product owners are generally on the wealthier side, it would not surprise me if the iPad Pro made up a significantly larger number of iPad units sold because it’s just a nicer screen).
 
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