Let's start a petition to keep the old Mac Pro and rebadge it as the Mac Pro Classic!

[Larry-K]

Try harder at using logic?

If you disagree with something, you should probably try offering a dissenting opinion rather than resort to banal sarcasm that adds nothing to the conversation.

The term "Logic" gets bandied about quite a bit, usually by people who have no understanding of it at all.

Let's see some numbers to support your position on how small a market segment would be interested in the old MacPro, and why Apple (Not you) is, or is not interested in pursuing that segment. You're the one with the dismissive attitude.

Opinion and Logic are divergent concepts, you seem to be conflating the two.

 

[cinealta]

4 relevant factors:

1) The *majority* (not all) of Apple's core constituency is, and has been, going mobile or semi-portable. Competitors are even making workstation class PCs in laptops (Lenovo etc). Apple is just following the global trend of the era of mobile computing and shrinking desktop solutions.

2) Mobile CPUs (ARM etc) have been increasing in computation, while lower in power use, far greater than their desktop, server & workstation class counterparts (Xeons etc).

3) GPU computations, with lower power draw, have been increasing far greater than CPUs (see Nvidia progress etc).

4) Data storage requirements have increased so much in last 5 yrs, that even the classic Mac Pros ability to house hard drives has been eclipsed by external solutions (NAS, RAID etc), especially with the advent of Thunderbolt.

I love the classic Mac Pro but it was a design that had its era. The world and technology is changing and progressing. Apple needs to disrupt and lead not follow.

 

[handsome pete]

Opinion and Logic are divergent concepts, you seem to be conflating the two.

No they're not. One can simply use the latter to construct the former.

You're asking for hard numbers? I thought we've already established this as opinion. Neither side of the argument has those. But Apple letting the Mac Pro stagnate for so long only to come out with this wildly different iteration seems like a pretty clear message to me.

Sure, logic can be faulty. But what makes more sense in this situation...

1) Apple, who has the research and numbers to back it up, sees limited returns or reason to continue on course, abandons the old and decides to reinvigorate the segment with something new and different?

2) Apple completely misreads the market and a bunch of guys on an internet message board are right instead?

I think their actions speak volumes to what they think of this "target market" you and the others refer to. Is your response that they're simply oblivious to it?

 

[beaker7]

I think their actions speak volumes to what they think of this "target market" you and the others refer to. Is your response that they're simply oblivious to it?

Time will tell, but it wouldn't be the first time they are wildly off the mark in the professional space.

 

[handsome pete]

Time will tell, but it wouldn't be the first time they are wildly off the mark in the professional space.

That's true, and I've never been the Apple defender that I'm probably coming off as here. I just think that even if the new design completely fails, then they'd abandon the pursuit altogether rather than get back to a more traditional design.

 

[Larry-K]

No they're not. One can simply use the latter to construct the former.

You're asking for hard numbers? I thought we've already established this as opinion. Neither side of the argument has those. But Apple letting the Mac Pro stagnate for so long only to come out with this wildly different iteration seems like a pretty clear message to me.

Sure, logic can be faulty. But what makes more sense in this situation...

1) Apple, who has the research and numbers to back it up, sees limited returns or reason to continue on course, abandons the old and decides to reinvigorate the segment with something new and different?

2) Apple completely misreads the market and a bunch of guys on an internet message board are right instead?

I think their actions speak volumes to what they think of this "target market" you and the others refer to. Is your response that they're simply oblivious to it?

Apple being oblivious to the needs of it's customers is nothing new. Letting the MacPro languish for 3 years was unacceptable to many, and while you think that Apple has "reinvigorated" the segment, I would argue they have retrenched to an even smaller niche, by appealing primarily to Video Editors.

Of course a "bunch of guys" on a message board are right. Their business perspectives are their own, and if they are successful, the tools they choose to use are the correct choices. There's no reason they have to use Apple's tools if better choices are available elsewhere.

Subscribing to the "Idols of the Marketplace" by asserting Apple has some omniscience view of what creative professionals need is irrational.

Logic faulty? Unlikely, if your argument is properly constructed, but If your premises are baseless your results will be invalid.

 

[wildmac]

The more I see benchmarks posted here, the more I see that Apple doesn't need the cMP, but what they do need is a headless iMac (no, not the gimped MacMini...

Or simply more video card options for the nMP.

 

[NT1440]

The more I see benchmarks posted here, the more I see that Apple doesn't need the cMP, but what they do need is a headless iMac (no, not the gimped MacMini...
\

What definition of "need" are you using?

 

[handsome pete]

Apple being oblivious to the needs of it's customers is nothing new. Letting the MacPro languish for 3 years was unacceptable to many, and while you think that Apple has "reinvigorated" the segment, I would argue they have retrenched to an even smaller niche, by appealing primarily to Video Editors.

I don't necessarily think they reinvigorated it either. But that sure might have been their attempt.

Of course a "bunch of guys" on a message board are right. Their business perspectives are their own, and if they are successful, the tools they choose to use are the correct choices. There's no reason they have to use Apple's tools if better choices are available elsewhere.

But that doesn't mean Apple is wrong either. And when we're trying to assess "right or wrong" here, we were talking about Apple's interests, not those of the individuals on this board.

Subscribing to the "Idols of the Marketplace" by asserting Apple has some omniscience view of what creative professionals need is irrational.

Logic faulty? Unlikely, if your argument is properly constructed, but If your premises are baseless your results will be invalid.

There you are trying to put words into my mouth again. Omniscience? Of course not. Never claimed that. But a hell of a lot more information than you, me, and everyone else here? Yeah, and not even close. But let's keep pretending our assessments hold equal weight to theirs. That seems to be what you're implying.

I don't think my premise is baseless at all. I've at least provided reasoning behind my thoughts, whereas you've offered nothing but ad hominem replies and no premise of your own.

 

[GoCubsGo]

I thought it was downright hilarious when people called their aluminum MacBooks "classic" ... I still find it hilarious. I call my MP a 2008 MP because that is what it is. It's old, not classic...but it's mine.

No rebadge necessary.

 

[wildmac]

What definition of "need" are you using?

Based on the number of folks here that would be quite happy with the CPU and graphics of the latest high-end iMac, but don't want to deal with an all-in-one system. Especially those folks looking for gaming and Adobe CC work.

 

[Larry-K]

But that doesn't mean Apple is wrong either. And when we're trying to assess "right or wrong" here, we were talking about Apple's interests, not those of the individuals on this board.

There you are trying to put words into my mouth again. Omniscience? Of course not. Never claimed that. But a hell of a lot more information than you, me, and everyone else here? Yeah, and not even close. But let's keep pretending our assessments hold equal weight to theirs. That seems to be what you're implying.

I don't think my premise is baseless at all. I've at least provided reasoning behind my thoughts, whereas you've offered nothing but ad hominem replies and no premise of your own.

My premise is the same as the OP's.

There are people who prefer the old form factor, they'd like to make Apple aware of that. Seems pretty simple, don't know why it seems to upset you that people would like to express that sentiment, but then I don't think like an Apple sycophant.

I didn't think the thread was about Apple's interests, I thought it was about the interests of long-term professional customers, but I guess you see it differently.

 

[ybz90]

This will not happen because Apple has never cared about what dissenters think; they think they "know" better and that's always been their attitude.

Second, the demand for the cMP frankly is low. There is a very vocal minority, which is inflating the perceived demand for it. It's the idea that only the unhappy complain, therefore, they are over-represented.

Remember, the majority of Mac Pro sales don't go to individuals in single unit orders. Bulk orders, via education, business, and industry customers, make up most of the Mac Pros sold, which happens in 5s, 10s, possibly even 100s at a time. These users do not tinker. They do not mod. They do not upgrade, because these are their work computers. When they need an upgrade, they call their IT guys who arrange the component swaps or simply order them new computers when the existing one becomes too slow or obsolete.

As someone who works in this type of environment (my lab just ordered a large number), I can assure you the number of people who want the cMP are limited compared the *overall* Mac Pro customer base. Most Mac Pro users don't care because they'll use what they're assigned/requested and when they need something better in a few years, they'll get something better at that time.

Does that mean there isn't an important demographic who prefer the cMP? No. Does it mean they're inconsequential in number? Of course not. But does Apple care, or more accurately, is it worth it for them financially to continue producing the cMP (with updated internals, since Westmere-EP is frankly ancient)? Also no. Unfortunate, but true.

 

[ABCDEF-Hex]

Please explain -

It's old, not classic...but it's mine.

No rebadge necessary.

Are you talking about the MP or Wrigley Field?

 

[GoCubsGo]

Are you talking about the MP or Wrigley Field?

Both, now that you ask.

 

[handsome pete]

My premise is the same as the OP's.

There are people who prefer the old form factor, they'd like to make Apple aware of that. Seems pretty simple, don't know why it seems to upset you that people would like to express that sentiment, but then I don't think like an Apple sycophant.

I didn't think the thread was about Apple's interests, I thought it was about the interests of long-term professional customers, but I guess you see it differently.

I'm far from an Apple sycophant. I jumped ship (at least software-wise) after the FCP re-branding. But if that's your premise, then both can exist. You're simply saying that there are those who preferred the old form factor and would like to go back to it. No one has ever denied that and just taking a glance at this forum over the past 7 months or so makes that wildly apparent. That's all I ever wanted at least.

What we're saying now though is that Apple has gone in a different direction for a reason. We don't know for sure why, but their actions would seem to suggest that the old line was just not worth it to them to pursue any longer. Hence, the new design. You haven't offered any real counterpoint to that line of thinking other than to say there are people who want the old form factor back. We've known that since the announcement and the countless threads since. There's nothing wrong with the idea of a petition, but it just seems like an exercise in futility, especially considering the track record of Apple and internet petitions in general.

 

[beaker7]

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a petition, but it just seems like an exercise in futility, especially considering the track record of Apple and internet petitions in general.

The entire existence of internet message boards depends upon futile efforts.

 

[i-rui]

The entire existence of internet message boards depends upon futile efforts.

lol. YES! +1!

obviously it would take a miracle to change Apple's mind, but so what?

the truth is we don't know how many would prefer the old design. Let those who do have a chance to voice their preference to Apple in some kind of cohesive effort. Even if it is ultimately futile.

 

[vander]

My premise is the same as the OP's.

There are people who prefer the old form factor, they'd like to make Apple aware of that. Seems pretty simple, don't know why it seems to upset you that people would like to express that sentiment, but then I don't think like an Apple sycophant.

I didn't think the thread was about Apple's interests, I thought it was about the interests of long-term professional customers, but I guess you see it differently.

It's amazing to me that when folks differ in opinion, one side has to right or wrong. I believe we can differ in our opinions about what we want without having to put down others. My post is about proving choice, not choosing sides. To me apple is defining the market for the nMP specifically for video editors, why not provide a choice for others, furthermore why limit your potential customer base.

There really is a market for the old form factor, yes some will choose the nMP, & others will bandaid their existing MP for as long as possible, others still will choose other operating systems & form factors. My point was Apple by upgrading the existing form factor could retain a larger customer base instead of further bifurcating it. However Apple Computer exists no more now it's just Apple, different focus, different product mix. Smaller is not always better....

Cheers!

 

[ABCDEF-Hex]

If you're just stuck in this thread

It's amazing to me that when folks differ in opinion, one side has to right or wrong. I believe we can differ in our opinions about what we want without having to put down others. My post is about proving choice, not choosing sides. To me apple is defining the market for the nMP specifically for video editors, why not provide a choice for others, furthermore why limit your potential customer base.

There really is a market for the old form factor, yes some will choose the nMP, & others will bandaid their existing MP for as long as possible, others still will choose other operating systems & form factors. My point was Apple by upgrading the existing form factor could retain a larger customer base instead of further bifurcating it. However Apple Computer exists no more now it's just Apple, different focus, different product mix. Smaller is not always better....

Cheers!

you don't see comments like this from another thread:

"From what I'm hearing from sauces Apple has been totally caught by surprise by the sheer demand for these machines. And they just can't keep up with demand at the moment. The Mac is far from dead."

Just saying - lots of different opinions - but then again the "other guy" is always wrong - right? (Wait a minute - I'm getting dizzy)

 

[beaker7]

"From what I'm hearing from sauces Apple has been totally caught by surprise by the sheer demand for these machines. And they just can't keep up with demand at the moment. The Mac is far from dead."

Never question one's sauces.

 

[handsome pete]

The entire existence of internet message boards depends upon futile efforts.

Hear hear.

To me apple is defining the market for the nMP specifically for video editors, why not provide a choice for others, furthermore why limit your potential customer base.

I'm not so sure Apple is strictly targeting video editors either. I see that bandied around here a lot lately, but it doesn't make much sense. I understand where that impression stems from since FCPX is their flagship "pro app." But there's been little to no adoption of FCPX in the pro circles (at least in the medium to large studios/facilities). Most of the users of FCPX I've encountered aren't exactly the ones shelling out $3000+ on a workstation. So, in my opinion, Apple still has to be targeting the entire gamut of workstations users, or at least the creative professionals. It's just FCPX is one of their own that they can market together with the hardware. But to simply design this as a FCPX machine without too much concern for how it will perform with other high end software would be a severe misstep.

There really is a market for the old form factor, yes some will choose the nMP, & others will bandaid their existing MP for as long as possible, others still will choose other operating systems & form factors. My point was Apple by upgrading the existing form factor could retain a larger customer base instead of further bifurcating it. However Apple Computer exists no more now it's just Apple, different focus, different product mix. Smaller is not always better....

Cheers!

I completely agree that there's a market and I'm part of it. I think we're just trying to deduce just how big that market is and if Apple deems it a worthwhile pursuit.

 

[jblagden]

While I would be more that happy to get updated "big box" macpro - this is just not going to happen.

Coke analogy is flawed, because Coca-Cola is a flagship product with a lot of consumers. Same as iPod (not mentioning that HDD price-per-GB still beats that of flash).

Macpro market niche is just too small and not really important for Apple bottom line.

They could increase market share by making a less expensive Mac Pro, say with a dual-core 3.6 gigahertz processor and between 8 and 16 gigabytes of RAM. They could just sell it as a Mac Pro with a slower CPU and less RAM, or they could call it something like the “Mac Tower”. The name “Mac Tower” wouldn’t make it sound like a professional machine, thus avoiding the necessity to have something like a 12-core 3.5 gigahertz CPU. You could probably take about $1000 off the price of a Mac Pro by using a dual-core i3 CPU instead of a 12-core Xeon CPU.

 

[jblagden]

I've been thinking that while the nMac Pro is a great machine there is a TON of folks out there that would love a new updated version of our old standby which I will now call the Mac Pro Classic. I think Apple has a unique opportunity to make good with a ton of folks who don't need two graphic cards, or at least would prefer Nvidia, want PCI expansion, want to run CUDA, want to run internal hard drives, etc. The list goes on and on.

There is a lot of precedent for this, Apple itself sells the iPod classic, that's where I got the name, but look at Coke, they changed the formula and folks spoke loud and clear they wanted the original Coke back, we need to do the same thing, tell Apple, thanks for the nMP but give us an updated Mac Pro classic. I run a CUDA based app and will continue to do so on my 5,1 Mac Pro but would love newer hardware without abandoning the investment I already have in hard drives, everything isn't always better by going smaller, sorry apple, the current iMac I believe is a case in point.

Let's keep the existing Mac Pro as the Mac Pro Classic! I know there is less than a snow ball's chance in hell, especially with Apple because the Mac Pro represents such a very small % of their bottom line but it seems as if they have now alienated everyone who would otherwise be interested in the nMP because of its limitations, except the video folks...Bring back the Mac Pro Classic!

I started a petition: https://www.change.org/p/apple-bring-back-the-classic-mac-pro

 

[jblagden]

I’ve also started a petition for a Mac tower since I think that if Apple made a mid-range desktop, it would probably be separate from the Mac Pro, since the Mac Pro is for professionals and a mid-range desktop would be for the rest of us. Here’s a link: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/apple-make-a-midrange-desktop-tower