Let's start a petition to keep the old Mac Pro and rebadge it as the Mac Pro Classic!

[JesterJJZ]

I started a petition: https://www.change.org/p/apple-bring-back-the-classic-mac-pro

I applaud the effort but you're points and suggestions are weak.

The MacPro was never about gaming, bringing up gaming is pointless.

Using non-Xeon processors goes against the idea of a workstation.

The reason so many of us want a traditional MacPro is power and internal expansion.

We want PCI slots for various add on cards as well as for multiple graphics cards. Not just for gaming either.

We want dual processors for more power as well as the added PCI lanes they add to the machine.

We want options for more internal storage. The fast PCIe SSD is great for boot but many of us want multiple drives internally to store large files and asset libraries. External storage is great for a scratch volume when dealing with lots of video footage, but some things we want on hand, inside the machine. The ability to have drives setup as raid1 for mirroring is great too.

Rework your petition to and aim it content creators and power users and I'm there.
Also, it comes off a bit like a rant. Wouldn't hurt to make it sound a bit more professional. Pointing fingers at Apple and saying they are greedy bastards won't help your case.

 

[ActionableMango]

I’ve also started a petition for a Mac tower since I think that if Apple made a mid-range desktop, it would probably be separate from the Mac Pro, since the Mac Pro is for professionals and a mid-range desktop would be for the rest of us. Here’s a link: https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/apple-make-a-midrange-desktop-tower/thank-you

I don't think that link is correct.

 

[flat five]

I don't think that link is correct.

heh.. i think if you click the link, you've just 'supported' the cause:






---------

 

[ActionableMango]

heh.. i think if you click the link, you've just 'supported' the cause:

That's what I thought as well. But there are only two signatures on the petition, Both of which have a name that isn't mine. I believe this is the correct link:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/apple-make-a-midrange-desktop-tower/

 

[flat five]

An ideal Mac desktop for us would havea 3.5 or 3.7 gigahertz dual-core processor, 8-16 gigabytes of RAM (upgradable to 32GB), two or three PCIe slots, a couple of M.2 slots, and at a least a couple of hard drive bays. In terms of storage, most folks only need a 480 gigabyte Solid State Drive and a two terabyte hard drive. The ideal price for something like this would be between $1,000 and $1,500.

you should try to get them to make this again :

 

[jblagden]

I don't think that link is correct.

Sorry about that. Here’s the link: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/apple-make-a-midrange-desktop-tower
[doublepost=1452967901][/doublepost]

you should try to get them to make this again :

Are you being sarcastic or are you serious?
[doublepost=1452967964][/doublepost]

heh.. i think if you click the link, you've just 'supported' the cause:


View attachment 610707



---------


View attachment 610706

Sorry about that. That’s the wrong link. That link doesn’t automatically make you a supporter. That was just the wrong link. Here’s the right link: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/apple-make-a-midrange-desktop-tower
[doublepost=1452968195][/doublepost]

4 relevant factors:

1) The *majority* (not all) of Apple's core constituency is, and has been, going mobile or semi-portable. Competitors are even making workstation class PCs in laptops (Lenovo etc). Apple is just following the global trend of the era of mobile computing and shrinking desktop solutions.

2) Mobile CPUs (ARM etc) have been increasing in computation, while lower in power use, far greater than their desktop, server & workstation class counterparts (Xeons etc).

3) GPU computations, with lower power draw, have been increasing far greater than CPUs (see Nvidia progress etc).

4) Data storage requirements have increased so much in last 5 yrs, that even the classic Mac Pros ability to house hard drives has been eclipsed by external solutions (NAS, RAID etc), especially with the advent of Thunderbolt.

I love the classic Mac Pro but it was a design that had its era. The world and technology is changing and progressing. Apple needs to disrupt and lead not follow.

The problem with mobile CPUs and GPUs is that they’re soldered to the logic boards, which makes them impossible to replace. If you have to replace a mobile CPU or GPU, you have to replace the whole logic board, which can be a $600-$900 part. I’d prefer to be able to replace the CPU or GPU for $100-$200, not $600.
[doublepost=1452968726][/doublepost]

I applaud the effort but you're points and suggestions are weak.

The MacPro was never about gaming, bringing up gaming is pointless.

Using non-Xeon processors goes against the idea of a workstation.

The reason so many of us want a traditional MacPro is power and internal expansion.

We want PCI slots for various add on cards as well as for multiple graphics cards. Not just for gaming either.

We want dual processors for more power as well as the added PCI lanes they add to the machine.

We want options for more internal storage. The fast PCIe SSD is great for boot but many of us want multiple drives internally to store large files and asset libraries. External storage is great for a scratch volume when dealing with lots of video footage, but some things we want on hand, inside the machine. The ability to have drives setup as raid1 for mirroring is great too.

Rework your petition to and aim it content creators and power users and I'm there.
Also, it comes off a bit like a rant. Wouldn't hurt to make it sound a bit more professional. Pointing fingers at Apple and saying they are greedy bastards won't help your case.

1. Okay. How could I improve them?
2. I know it was never for gaming, but a lot of Mac users play games on their Macs and there are a lot of Windows guys who complain that Macs are overpriced and terrible for gaming. A midrange Mac desktop could help to dispel that notion.
3,5,7. I’m not talking about a workstation. If you want a workstation, then you should check out this petition: https://www.change.org/p/apple-bring-back-the-classic-mac-pro
4. I mentioned that in my petition, though I suppose I should specify that we want PCIe cards for graphics cards as well as other types of expansion cards like USB 3.1 cards, NICs (with encryption), and video capture cards.

8. How could I change it so it doesn’t sound like a rant? Should I just take out the four sentences about the iMac, Mini and Mac Pro?
9. When did I call Apple greedy bastards? When I mentioned that most of the current Macs have very little, if any, expansion?

 

[goMac]

you should try to get them to make this again :

That was a good machine. The one in that video doesn't have the stock gray CD drive though, which might be overplaying the "ugly" a bit (seemed like a perfectly attractive machine to me.)

The guy doesn't seem to have a clue as to what the "personality" cards mean, but at the time you had several different options for what "personality" card you'd get with the machine, which determined what audio and video support you'd have. 3D acceleration was on board, the card only existed for more speciality video/audio support, like video editing. The G3 towers made more use of the personality cards, I think the "whisper" personality card was the only one that ever came with the G3 AIO Mac.

It wasn't an ugly machine... but the industrial design and the reliability on the iMac was better.

The problem with mobile CPUs and GPUs is that they’re soldered to the logic boards, which makes them impossible to replace. If you have to replace a mobile CPU or GPU, you have to replace the whole logic board, which can be a $600-$900 part. I’d prefer to be able to replace the CPU or GPU for $100-$200, not $600.

Without getting into a giant "will they/won't they" thing on Mac Pro GPU upgrades, at the original design time of the nMP, I think the cards were intended to be upgradable. There were several private meetings Apple had to show of the nMP before release where it was inferred to video editors the cards would be upgradable. Again, not a comment on if there will be upgrades. But the machine wasn't designed with the intention that the cards would never be replaced.

For the other machines? Except for very limited sections of time, GPUs have been soldered to the iMac boards since 1998. The MXM Intels were a rare exception. The only machines that ever featured the GPU on a board were the Power Macs. Asking for non-Power Macs with the GPU on a discrete board would fly in the face of 30 years of Apple history. If you're expecting them to make that happen after 30 years, you really haven't been paying attention.

 

[fastlanephil]

The iMac is about as close to a gaming computer that Apple will ever make. Apple's response for the xMac will be that if you want to play games buy an iPad or play them on your iPhone. Apple has never had and will probably never have any interest competing in the gaming, geek user computer market.

 

[ibgb]

What about the xserve? Apple Raid? A petition for them?
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/will-apple-return-with-the-xserve.1702711/

or this 6 year old post, which is a somewhat accurate forecast from 2010:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/sandy-bridge-light-peak-eol-for-mac-pro-xserve.846591/
"I do believe that all Macs will only ship with audio ports, and Light Peaks ports. No FireWire, no USB, no ethernet, no display outputs."

Many of these discussions we can re-cycle! save electrons!

 

[jblagden]

I'd buy that in a heartbeat. Core i7 standalone Mac with proper desktop graphics none of this mobile stuff.

The design direction of the nMP suits an environment were the intention is to have all of the peripherals external - probably with storage located in a separate room because it is noisy and hot. It's designed so it can be moved around movie sets, etc with ease.

The needs for the home enthusiast are very different and this is where Apple is getting it wrong. There is huge demand for a stand alone core i7 with proper desktop graphcs - none of this mobile crap.

So back to the original question. I don't want them to bring back the 'Classic' Mac Pro. I want a new machine instead. Same principals (stand-alone with internal expansion) but much smaller. 2.5" drive bays (6-8), 4 x PCIe 16 and at least 4 DIMM sockets. Would I want an optical bay? Maybe. I wouldn't object to one being there. This machine could be around the size of an HP Microserver, or one of these LAN party gaming cases, but obviously cooler cos Apple make it. I personally think this should have been the machine Apple made instead of the nMP. In my mind they got it wrong as their current effort is focused too much in one area (FCP) and isn't enough of an all-rounder.

Sounds pretty good. I guess even just one or two 2.5 inch hard drive bays would be enough, since you can get 2 terabyte 2.5 drives. Though, I would want either a hard drive bay or a M.2 slot for a Solid State Drive. Though, I’d prefer M.2 because it’s faster than SATA III. The only other thing I would want to change about your idea is that I would want a dual-core processor because most apps aren’t written to take advantage of more than four cores. You can get StarCraft 2 to use four cores, but only on Linux.

 

[shaunp]

Sounds pretty good. I guess even just one or two 2.5 inch hard drive bays would be enough, since you can get 2 terabyte 2.5 drives. Though, I would want either a hard drive bay or a M.2 slot for a Solid State Drive. Though, I’d prefer M.2 because it’s faster than SATA III. The only other thing I would want to change about your idea is that I would want a dual-core processor because most apps aren’t written to take advantage of more than four cores. You can get StarCraft 2 to use four cores, but only on Linux.

I suppose that's what I'm getting at really - the design needs to be more flexible as not everyone can be shoe-horned into the same hardware.

 

[lowendlinux]

Sounds pretty good. I guess even just one or two 2.5 inch hard drive bays would be enough, since you can get 2 terabyte 2.5 drives. Though, I would want either a hard drive bay or a M.2 slot for a Solid State Drive. Though, I’d prefer M.2 because it’s faster than SATA III. The only other thing I would want to change about your idea is that I would want a dual-core processor because most apps aren’t written to take advantage of more than four cores. You can get StarCraft 2 to use four cores, but only on Linux.

M2 isn't faster M2 pci-e is and I have a 3TB Toshiba 2.5" external so I imagine you can buy the same drive bare.

 

[ActionableMango]

4) Data storage requirements have increased so much in last 5 yrs, that even the classic Mac Pros ability to house hard drives has been eclipsed by external solutions (NAS, RAID etc), especially with the advent of Thunderbolt.

I see this point a lot and it doesn't make any sense to me. An updated cMP could have had Thunderbolt instead of FW800. Just as surely as USB 3.0 ports would have replaced the USB 2.0 ports. Then you would have a choice of internal or external, or both.

 

[phrehdd]

I can agree to a re-badge or designation and also would suggest we re-badge the nMP to the Mac Mini Pro or the Mac Chimney Pro (as all of what made the original Pro great has gone up in smoke).

 

[phrehdd]

I see this point a lot and it doesn't make any sense to me. An updated cMP could have had Thunderbolt instead of FW800. Just as surely as USB 3.0 ports would have replaced the USB 2.0 ports. Then you would have a choice of internal or external, or both.

The cMP as you stated would be a choice of more options inside and outside with the technology upgrade on connectivity. As well, no reason for the size of the case that a newer version of a cMP couldn't hold more drives. Some of us recall that 3rd party makers offered various solutions.

Increase 4 sleds to at least 6, the space for the optical drive(s). PCI cards that hold SSD style storage etc. The best part is all is standard along with other PCs so people can fine tune/customize to a specific need rather than the Mac Mini Pro of today that forces everything on the outside for the most part. I prefer everything on the inside up to the point that makes sense with respect to both power and ability to regulate temperatures.

I have seen images of a couple of Hackintosh that are pretty damn impressive and definitely work horse capable.

 

[shaunp]

I can agree to a re-badge or designation and also would suggest we re-badge the nMP to the Mac Mini Pro or the Mac Chimney Pro (as all of what made the original Pro great has gone up in smoke).

Or just call it the Mac. Take out the Xeon's, add core i7 and just a single fast GPU, and two of those small PCIe slots for SSD's. Then bring back the cMP with Thunderbolt, USB 3.1 and a better PSU so it can have bigger graphics cards. Have slots on the motherboard of a couple of PCIe SSD's and leave the 4 x 3.5" bays. It would cost a lot fully maxed out, but not everyone would need to do that you could just expand as you need to. And bring back RAID into OS X while you are at it Apple.

 

[phrehdd]

Or just call it the Mac. Take out the Xeon's, add core i7 and just a single fast GPU, and two of those small PCIe slots for SSD's. Then bring back the cMP with Thunderbolt, USB 3.1 and a better PSU so it can have bigger graphics cards. Have slots on the motherboard of a couple of PCIe SSD's and leave the 4 x 3.5" bays. It would cost a lot fully maxed out, but not everyone would need to do that you could just expand as you need to. And bring back RAID into OS X while you are at it Apple.

I like your thinking. I find it a bit sad that for the "pro" market or avid hobbyist, Apple chose not to really allow the core system to be more adaptable to needs (as you offered up in your post). I can see music pros needing one set up, graphics another, - even gamers having their own set up and so forth. Darn shame. To be honest, if the Mac Mini Pro nMP had three of those proprietary slots and start out with just storage and one vid card and offered options to populate the third slot I would be a bit less hesitant to be so critical. In my case, I only would need one good vid card and would much rather have the option for additional storage or perhaps other means to network (fiber etc.) or some sort of music oriented hardware card and...

 

[Jaho101]

That was a good machine. The one in that video doesn't have the stock gray CD drive though, which might be overplaying the "ugly" a bit (seemed like a perfectly attractive machine to me.)
Without getting into a giant "will they/won't they" thing on Mac Pro GPU upgrades, at the original design time of the nMP, I think the cards were intended to be upgradable. There were several private meetings Apple had to show of the nMP before release where it was inferred to video editors the cards would be upgradable. Again, not a comment on if there will be upgrades. But the machine wasn't designed with the intention that the cards would never be replaced.

You can upgrade from a D300 to a D700. Honestly, if it were at all worth it for GPU manufacturers in terms of volume, then they'd have been able to make nMP replacement GPUs. The problem is that it's a very custom design, that is manufactured in small quantities. Apple didn't order more from AMD, and AMD probably didn't see a reason to bother with newer cards because of the small demand (and perhaps heating/power issues). It wasn't like in the old days where they could rebrand a card into a Mac version, but it was still the same PCIe based card. The design of the nMP works really well, in a lot of ways, since only the essentials are in the body, but it required the industry to adapt to that methodology completely.

 

[AidenShaw]

The problem is that it's a very custom design, that is manufactured in small quantities.

...and there are two models of each. The A and B cards are somewhat mirror images of each other, and only one has the SSD slot.

 

[jblagden]

M2 isn't faster M2 pci-e is and I have a 3TB Toshiba 2.5" external so I imagine you can buy the same drive bare.

Okay. Well, I checked out M.2 on Wikipedia and iFixit, and the two drives look a bit different. Looks like one of those M.2 drives might not fit in a Retina MacBook Pro or a 2014 Mac Mini. The spacing on the connector looks different.

And check out the price difference between the Solid State Drives Apple uses in Retina MacBook Pros and regular M.2 Solid State Drives.

Apple’s Solid State Drive prices: 128GB = $200 256 GB = $400 512GB = $550
Samsung’s Solid State Drive Prices: 120GB = $75 250GB = $90 512GB = $160 1TB = $300

If Apple simply used standard M.2 connectors, Mac Solid State Drive upgrades would actually be affordable. I’d rather spend $300 on a terabyte than spending an extra $100 on 256 gigabytes. Though, I would go with a 512 gigabyte drive if it wasn’t the only drive in the Mac.

Admittedly, there are two types of M.2 Solid State Drives. One kind uses AHCI and the other kind uses NVMe, which was added to System Information a year or so ago.

I checked Apple's Solid State Drive pricing and found out that it costs $300 to go from 256 gigabytes to 512, so they'd probably charge double that for a whole new module. According to iFixit, a used 512 gigabyte module would cost $550: https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/Ma...tina-13-Inch-and-15-Inch-2015-SSD/IF188-108-2

And yet, found a Samsung 512 gigabyte M.2 NVMe module on Amazon for $330.

 

[shaunp]

I like your thinking. I find it a bit sad that for the "pro" market or avid hobbyist, Apple chose not to really allow the core system to be more adaptable to needs (as you offered up in your post). I can see music pros needing one set up, graphics another, - even gamers having their own set up and so forth. Darn shame. To be honest, if the Mac Mini Pro nMP had three of those proprietary slots and start out with just storage and one vid card and offered options to populate the third slot I would be a bit less hesitant to be so critical. In my case, I only would need one good vid card and would much rather have the option for additional storage or perhaps other means to network (fiber etc.) or some sort of music oriented hardware card and...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I just find the gap between the mini and the nMP too great (forget the iMac exists please) and the nMP is too inflexible for enthusiasts and doesn't scale high enough for 'Pros'. I think Apple would reinvigorate their 'PC sales' by offering a more flexible platform and remembering where they came from - enthusiasts. I recently tried to move back to Windows for this reason, and as good as Windows 10 is it has no direct replacement for Messages (Skype doesn't come close) and the multi-monitor support in Windows is shockingly bad. Apps only open up on the primary monitor regardless of which task bar you click on, and if you have monitors with different DPI's the results can be mixed. Apple have the best ecosystem right now and very limited hardware choices to support it.

 

[ActionableMango]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I'm with you. You are far from the only one who thinks this. It's been a common request for many years. There's even been a name assigned to such a beast, the fabled "xMac".

The problem is, Mac sales are increasing at a time when the rest of the PC industry sales are falling. So Apple's insistence on making things harder and harder to upgrade or repair is actually paying off. So even if the xMac would be a good seller, why rock the boat? A boat that's already sailing better than everyone else in the industry?

You can upgrade from a D300 to a D700.

Technically yes. But practically, no.

Where are you finding D700s for sale? As far as I can tell, there is no authorized source whatsoever, no unauthorized source with reliable stock, and grey market boards on Ebay are only available very rarely and for such extreme prices that the upgrade isn't remotely cost effective.

 

[AidenShaw]

Where are you finding D700s for sale? As far as I can tell, there is no authorized source whatsoever, no unauthorized source with reliable stock, and grey market boards on Ebay are only available very rarely and for such extreme prices that the upgrade isn't remotely cost effective.

But the SCREWS. They're attached with SCREWS. SCREWS make them upgradeable. The SCREWS.

 

[jblagden]

Where are you finding D700s for sale? As far as I can tell, there is no authorized source whatsoever, no unauthorized source with reliable stock, and grey market boards on Ebay are only available very rarely and for such extreme prices that the upgrade isn't remotely cost effective.

This is also the problem with mobile CPUs and GPUs; even if you could solder off the old CPU or GPU, you can’t get a replacement anywhere.
[doublepost=1453862159][/doublepost]

But the SCREWS. They're attached with SCREWS. SCREWS make them upgradeable. The SCREWS.

The screws might make them upgradeable, but the proprietary interface doesn’t exactly lend itself to upgrades. And if you can’t buy upgrades, what good are those screws?

 

[MacVidCards]

The screws might make them upgradeable, but the proprietary interface doesn’t exactly lend itself to upgrades. And if you can’t buy upgrades, what good are those screws?

You'll have to excuse Aiden. It was Sarcasm. There was a poster who used to swear that there would be upgrades a-plenty and his sole element of proof was the fact that the machine was built with screws.

Don't ask.

UPDATE: Found some! Get out your wallet.

http://www.macpartsonline.com/661-7...-pro-late-2013-me253ll-a-md878ll-a-a1481.html